O.B.N.C.

[FreeGrace2]

Faith is never a point in time action.

Are you really not aware of the fact that there IS a MOMENT when believes in Christ for salvation? Believing in Christ has a beginning to it. Conversion is WHEN a person changes from not having faith in Christ to HAVING faith in Christ.

And Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul didn't say you have to keep believing in the Lord Jesus and THEN you will be saved.

He said "believe (point in time when saving faith BEGINS) and you will be saved.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

If one no longer has that conviction and assurance he has no faith.

Agreed. However, Jn 5:24 STILL says that when one believes, they possess eternal life.

It's more than a one time mental acknowledgement that Jesus is God.

Obviously a belief is continuous until such time that a person changes his mind.

But the point is that there IS a beginning to saving faith. There IS a start point. That's what the aorist tense is about.

So, the possession of eternal life has a start point. When the person believes.

It's trust and dependency on him for salvation in the present time.

The start point of saving faith is ALWAYS in the present tense.

You cannot perform a past tense action. You can only refer BACK to it.

In fact, EVERYTHING you do is in the present tense. Including the moment you believe in Christ.

 

[renniks]

Then tell me who Jesus is referring to iih v.32 and v.33.

People who deny him and people who don't.

 

[renniks]

So what? When a person does believe, they ARE given eternal life. That's what John 5:24 says. Why don't you believe that?

I do. And if they cease to believe they no longer possess eternal life.

 

[renniks]

So there you have it. Matt 24 is about the Tribulation. And that's what v.13 is about.

So? What are they or we saved from? Not death. They are saved from hell if they endured to the end.

 

[renniks]

You claim I twist the verses, but you have never even tried to correct me.

I have corrected you multiple times.

 

[renniks]

The start point of saving faith is ALWAYS in the present tense.

That doesn't make any sense. It's not a starting point. Faith isn't a point in time.
"So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."

Why do you try to give what belongs to believers to the reprobates?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Then tell me who Jesus is referring to iih v.32 and v.33.

People who deny him and people who don't.

How is this an answer. That is what the verse says. My question was who Jesus was referring to. You just regurgitated what was said.

Maybe you don't really know who Jesus was referring to. That's ok. Just admit it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So what? When a person does believe, they ARE given eternal life. That's what John 5:24 says. Why don't you believe that?

I do. And if they cease to believe they no longer possess eternal life.

Ok, then you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Not possible.

He said those given eternal life shall never perish. When a person believes, they possess eternal life.

You can't have it both ways. In spite of your attempts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So there you have it. Matt 24 is about the Tribulation. And that's what v.13 is about.

So? What are they or we saved from? Not death. They are saved from hell if they endured to the end.

Again missing the point entirely.

In v.13, "the end" refers to the end of the Trib. So it cannot refer to the end of life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You claim I twist the verses, but you have never even tried to correct me.

I have corrected you multiple times.

That is patently not true.

And to prove it, I ask you to cite just one post where you did. Shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Then tell me who Jesus is referring to iih v.32 and v.33.

How is this an answer. That is what the verse says. My question was who Jesus was referring to. You just regurgitated what was said.

Maybe you don't really know who Jesus was referring to. That's ok. Just admit it.

Why are you complicating it? It's not for a certain category of people. It applies to all.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So what? When a person does believe, they ARE given eternal life. That's what John 5:24 says. Why don't you believe that?

Ok, then you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Not possible.

He said those given eternal life shall never perish. When a person believes, they possess eternal life.

You can't have it both ways. In spite of your attempts.

The sheep have eternal life. Former sheep do not. We aren't locked into being one or the other.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You claim I twist the verses, but you have never even tried to correct me.

That is patently not true.

And to prove it, I ask you to cite just one post where you did. Shouldn't be that difficult.

I corrected your understanding of several verses, so I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[renniks]

Why do you believe that a child of God can become an UN-child of God?

If salvation can be lost, then all that occurs at the moment of faith must be undone.

Yet, there are no verses that teach any of that.

Read Hebrews.

 

[Doug Brents]

If a believer leaves the faith, I don't call them a believer. I call them an apostate. A former believer, if you will.

Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

Wait. You are actually saying that an apostate will be saved? Regardless of what they do?

That is in direct contradiction to Heb 6:4-6
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

If you have ANY honesty and discernment, you must see that this is talking about someone who was saved, but fell away. This person is no longer repentant. And as Acts 3:19 says, repentance is necessary for forgiveness of sin. But this person cannot be brought back to repentance. They cannot be forgiven. They cannot be returned to salvation. They have lost their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why are you complicating it? It's not for a certain category of people. It applies to all.

Right. All people are either saved or unsaved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The sheep have eternal life. Former sheep do not.

You STILL haven't proven your presumption from Scripture.

And, it contradicts Jesus' clear words about recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Why you don't understand that is really baffling.

We aren't locked into being one or the other.

Locked into what? Once HIS sheep, always HIS sheep. You have zero evidence for your presumptions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You claim I twist the verses, but you have never even tried to correct me.

That is patently not true.

And to prove it, I ask you to cite just one post where you did. Shouldn't be that difficult.

I corrected your understanding of several verses, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Please give me an example by citing at least 1 post #. i don't believe you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you believe that a child of God can become an UN-child of God?

If salvation can be lost, then all that occurs at the moment of faith must be undone.

Yet, there are no verses that teach any of that.

Read Hebrews.

Really? There are 13 chapters and 303 verses.

This kind of answer reveals that you CANNOT prove your claim about losing salvation.

If you really did have an unambiguous one, you'd have been shoving it down my throat by now.

Instead, I've been trying to shove John 5:24 and 10:28 down yours that prove eternal security.

But you're just not swallowing the truth.

 

[renniks]

Locked into what? Once HIS sheep, always HIS sheep

Yes... that's why the scriptures have many warning about falling into false teachings. Because it's impossible, right?
Paul said if you go back to the law for example Christ will be of no use to you.