Not pre-destined for Hell.

[eleos1954]

Read Romans 9


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth



Rom 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Rom 9:19-23
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


.

Why does God have to show mercy or compassion on those He already picked to save? I mean if it's already a done deal ... nothing really matters ... he's already decided.

 

[eleos1954]

God elected me before the foundation of the world, not because
of any good or evil I would do but only because of His Good Pleasure.
In my twenties God began to "draw" me to Christ. I began to read
the Bible and I realized how righteous God is and how depraved I was
and how much I deserved to go to Hell. I cried out for mercy and God
was merciful to me. I received the Holy Spirit when God gave it to me,
I cannot tell you the day or hour. Then began a process of sanctification that got to the point where I was walking with God (almost 50 years).


Next question?

.

Why does God need to give you the Holy Spirit if you are already elected to be saved.

 

[5thKingdom]

If God’s election is true then...

That is some list... it might have been better to address
the issues one or two at a time. I had to separate your
post into two parts because it was too big. Here is part 1

1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.

God made man good. Adam chose to rebel. As a result,
he spiritually died and all of his offspring were born spiritually
dead - and destined to hell. That is why God sent a Savior
to save SOME from going to hell.


We have the responsibility to obey God.
That responsibility did not disappear when Adam sinned
and we lost the ability to obey. We remain responsible.

2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?

It would make ADAM (not God) responsible.

3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?

First, men are judged because of their sins.
People in hell are paying for the sins they committed,
every idle word and even sinful thoughts. They are not
in hell to pay for the SINGLE SIN of not believing in Christ.


Second, God did not create men incapable of obeying Him.
Again, you are blaming God for Adam's sin. Blame Adam.

That would be like if God were to make a cat, then feed it, then command it to not poop otherwise it will be punished for all eternity.

That is a flawed analogy.
God made man good. Man CHOSE to rebel.
Man spiritually DIED on that day (as God had promised)
God is not a LIAR... He told Adam what would happen and
it did. Again, your complaint is against Adam not God.

4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?

The Gospel call goes out to repent (and believe).
Some men are able and do so... others are not able and don't.
We don't know who is elect so the call goes out to all.


Many are called ["called" by the Great Commission]
Few are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to be saved]

5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?

You have made a mistake about the CONTEXT in both verses.
They do NOT say "everyone ever born". Instead they say "all"
of "us"... who is the context of "us"? It is the elect. ALL MEN
that God "draws" to Christ "shall come" to Him and He will
lose NONE of "His Sheep"


(KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us] should perish, but that all [of us] should come to repentance.

(LITV) The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any [of us] to perish, but all [of us] to come to repentance.

(YLT) the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any [of us] to be lost but all [of us] to pass on to reformation,

6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?

First, the "world" means both Jew and Gentile. Remember,
before Christ came God was ONLY saving the Jews. After Christ
came God saves BOTH Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = the world)
The "world" does not mean everyone ever born... that contradicts
a TON of Scriptures.


Secondly, you continue to project Adam's actions on to God.
It was Adam who rebelled and caused all his offspring to be
born spiritually dead. God did not do that.


It is a wonderful thing that God would save ANYONE.
And you are complaining He does not save EVERYONE?
Or are you complaining that He does not save YOU?
Or are you complaining that He does not allow MAN
to be Sovereign in the salvation process?

Exactly WHAT is the complaint?

7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?

First, there is not "if"... election is true.
Second, eternal security is also true... for the saved "wheat".


Third, God often speaks in a corporate sense, He saves the "church"
and yet we know that many in the "church" are NOT saved since
they are unsaved "tares". Those who are truly "indwelt" will
"abide" in Christ... those who are not, will fall away.


We see this in the parable/prophecy of the sower... some believe
and then die because they were not good ground.


We see this throughout the Bible that some fall away... because
they were never really saved.


1Jn 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued
with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest
that they were not all of us.

8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?

Because salvation is a PROCESS. We must "work" to produce the
fruit of sanctification. We must "work out our salvation"... but
it is really God working in us.


Php 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?

Again, the church consists of BOTH saved "wheat" and unsaved
"tares"... and we can tell the difference by their "fruit". In fact,
the "wheat" are COMMANDED to expel anyone who shows the
"fruit" of a tare and does not repent.


When we read Scripture we must discern the CONTEXT of the verse
or passage. Often a chapter or passage will be focused on either
the "wheat" or the "tares". Sometimes the passage will be talking
about BOTH.


While Ephesians 1 and 2 are focused on the "wheat" that is not
carried through the whole letter. In Ephesians 5 the text talks about
some who are showing the "fruit" of being unsaved "tares". And the
text says they will not inherit the Kingdom. But the CONTEXT tells us
these are the "children of disobedience"... they are unsaved "tares"
in the church and not the saved "wheat" of chapters 1 and 2.


Eph 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children
of disobedience.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

If God’s election is true then...

Here is part 2

10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?

First, I do not know Calvin and cannot speak to what he taught.


Second, I do not agree with your interpretation of Romans 11.
Some are broken of because of unbelief. And some unbelievers
are grafted in when they do believe. [v20,23].


Third, Again, we know the church consists of saved "wheat" and
unsaved "tares" so we cannot pretend that the context of any
passage is ONLY talking about the "wheat". Many passages
are addressing BOTH the wheat (that abide) and the tares
(that fall away).

11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?

Again you conflate the wheat and tares.

All Christians are under grace, but not all Christians are elect
We know this because some fall away and some show the
"fruit" of being unsaved tares. Those who let sin reign in their
body are showing they are NOT abiding in Christ. Remember,
these letters are written to the "churches"... who is in these
churches? Both saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" so you
cannot just ASSUME the passage is addressing only wheat.
In EACH passage you must discern WHO is in view.


That would be like saying a family that is under God's Grace
because the Father is elect would automatically have ONLY
elect children... that is not how it works.


Those in the churches "taste" the Goodness of God and the
Holy Spirit... both the saved "wheat" and the unsaved "tares".
That does NOT mean both are elect. I only dwell on this now
because you have asked the same TYPE of question several
times now. You assume too much when you assume that
all in the churches are saved "wheat".


Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants
to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?

See answer as #11

13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?

For the same reason He said ALL MEN the Father gives me
"shall come" to me and I will lose NONE of them.


Clearly the CONTEXT of "all men" is either everyone ever born...
which it cannot be because hell is heavily populated. Or the
context is "all" that the Father has "given" to Him.
All of His sheep.

14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?

Again, because salvation is a PROCESS that must be "worked out"
with fear and trembling... we already covered this before.


Php 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?

Again you are projecting ADAM'S sin on to God.
You should stop doing that. God did not make man wicked.
That is the result of the FALL of man. Blame Adam not God.


Of course it "grieved" God to see the result of the wickedness
of man. He is a Holy God.


I am sure it "grieves" God to see the wickedness of man today,
don't you think? Does that make God responsible for that evil?
Should a Holy God NOT be "grieved" to see such wickedness?
Do you think God LIKES abortion or homosexuality or any of
the various wickedness that is COMMON today?

16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you [the Jewish Kingdom], and GIVEN
to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof [Christian Kingdom].


Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.



To your larger question: The Gospel call goes out to all the
world. But we know that NONE will seek God [Rom 3] and
we know that NO MAN will come to Christ [John 6]. But, as
we have seen several times now, that is not God's fault,
that is the result of the rebellion of our father Adam.
We are all born spiritually DEAD.


And so, because God is so Gracious and Merciful, He elects
those HE will save (in spite of themselves). Is your complaint
that God does not save EVERYONE? We are so fortunate that
God would save ANYONE. Since we all deserve to go to hell.


For MANY are called ["called" by the Great Commission]
But FEW are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to be saved]

17. John 5:34

I do not see your question about this verse.
It seems very plain to me.


Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man:
but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

18. This next verse speaks for itself.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

I do not see your question about this verse, it does speak
for itself. However, the CONTEXT is the rest of Scripture so
we know that NO MAN fears God or seeks God. As for the
"every nation" part... again we are talking both Jew and Gentile.


In fact, I will give you a better verse:


Act 17:26-28
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


And yet the CONTEXT of Acts 17 (above) remains in the fact
that NO MAN will seek after God, no, not even one [Rom 3]


So we see that God WANTS men to repent... but NO MAN will.
God WANTS men to seek after Him... but NO MAN will.
‭‭
God is "grieved" at the wickedness of man.
All that is the fault of our fallen nature.


He is a RIGHTEOUS GOD, which means when He says there
is a penalty for sinning, that penalty MUST be applied,
otherwise He would be a liar.


And so He sent a Savior to redeem a people for Himself,
to His Great Glory.


I hope I have provided some answers or help to you, I am
sorry I could not have taken more time to provide more depth
to my answers - but you had WAY too many questions to deal
with any one in a detailed manner.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Why does God need to give you the Holy Spirit if you are already elected to be saved.

Eph 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Jim
.

 

[eleos1954]

Eph 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Jim
.

you don't need it .... you were elected ... or so you claim

 

[5thKingdom]

Why does God have to show mercy or compassion on those He already picked to save? I mean if it's already a done deal ... nothing really matters ... he's already decided.

Their salvation is the RESULT of His Mercy and Compassion.
They were "elected" to be saved before the foundation of the
world but they did not BECOME saved until some point in their
lifetime. They were born spiritually DEAD like everyone else.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

you don't need it .... you were elected ... or so you claim

Do you want to ask me a question or fight with me?
We were elected before the foundation of the world
but we were born DEAD like everyone else. We are
not saved until some point in our lifetime.

I am glad to answer any question to the best of my
ability. Do not fight with me or I will ignore you.
You can disagree all you want but do not fight.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

.(provide scripture) that defines His good pleasure.

Luk_12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.


Eph_1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph_1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Php_2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

God is not in control of your Free Will.
You are.
.

Because we are born DEAD our "free will" is to sin.
We WANT to sin. We freely sin. We sin of our own
"free will".

The Bible is clear: NO MAN seeks God, no, not even one [Rom 3]

If we are Born Again then this happens... it is STILL not
our own "free will"


Php 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is some list... it might have been better to address
the issues one or two at a time. I had to separate your
post into two parts because it was too big. Here is part 1

Yes I’m sorry it would be best to go thru one at a time to have a more in depth discussion about each one without getting sidetracked with too many topics at once. I will only reply to one at a time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We have the responsibility to obey God.
That responsibility did not disappear when Adam sinned
and we lost the ABILITY to obey. We remain responsible.

And herein lies the problem with Calvin’s theology. Man cannot be justly punished for failing to meet expectations that he is INCAPABLE of meeting. Of course God being omnipresent and omniscient He would've already knew that man would be incapable of obeying. I agree to this point but where Calvin really made his mistake was by implying that man is incapable of repentance. You see sin is irrelevant to salvation because all have sinned. The determining factor for salvation is repentance not sin. We all sin but only those who repent are saved. Calvin’s theology teaches that man is INCAPABLE of repentance unless God bestows grace upon him. There are a number of verses in the Bible that indicate God being angry at certain groups and individuals because they did not repent and this implies that God is expecting these individuals to repent. It wouldn’t make sense for God to get angry at man for failing to repent if those individuals were incapable of doing so. The expectation must be achievable in order for the punishment for failure to be justified. For example let’s say God gave a commandment that all men must travel to the moon in order to receive salvation and anyone who fails to travel to the moon will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. Then God provided a spaceship named grace that is capable of carrying everyone on earth but only allowed 1/3 of the population to board the ship. Then after the ship left God punishes all others who were NOT ALLOWED to enter the ship by throwing them into the lake of fire for all eternity. Now would you say that God’s punishment on those who were not ALLOWED to enter the ship is just. That is an accurate analogy of what Calvin’s theology teaches. You see this is not a problem of obedience it’s a problem of inability. Romans 2 suggests otherwise.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here God is leading these people to repentance and yet they are being stubborn and unrepentant. God has given them grace and they are refusing to accept it. If God had not given them grace then it wouldn’t make sense that He would be patient with them expecting them to repent and justly inflicting His wrath upon them on judgement day.

I’m at work so I’ll give one more clear example.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here Jesus clearly expects Jezebel to repent and gives her time to do so but she refuses because she doesn’t want to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It would make ADAM (not God) responsible.

Not if Adam is incapable of repentance. If God commanded you to jump to the moon and your incapable of doing it no matter how hard you try does that make you guilty of disobedience or does that make God’s commandment unjust since He knew before He made that commandment that no matter what you do or how hard you tried you could not possibly jump to the moon? A person must have the ability to comply in order to justly punish them for failing to meet a requirement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Second, God did not create men incapable of obeying Him.
Again, you are blaming God for Adam's sin. Blame Adam.

So your saying that everyone is capable of repentance? Because the doctrine of total depravity teaches that man is incapable of repentance.

 

[eleos1954]

I know nothing about Calvin so I certainly could not (or would
not even want to try to) defend something he said.

If you have a disagreement with something I SAID...
then we can talk.

Jim

I know nothing about Calvin so I certainly could not (or would
not even want to try to) defend something he said.

Jim

Yet you are putting forth the teachings of Calvin and also those of Augustine Hippo.

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic Augustine.

Augustinian Calvinism is a term used to emphasize the origin of John Calvin's theology within Augustine of Hippo's theology over a thousand years earlier. By his own admission, John Calvin's theology was deeply influenced by Augustine of Hippo, the fourth-century church father.


Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:


T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):


Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."


CONCLUSION:

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

I encourage people to go do their own diligent research on the matter.

Augustinian Calvinism - Wikipedia.

 

[5thKingdom]

Yet you are putting forth the teachings of Calvin and also those of Augustine Hippo.

I am putting forth what I read in the Bible.

Did Augustine read (much but not all) the same? I don't know
Did Calvin read (much but not all) the same? I don't know

I only know what I read.

Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

The Bible teaches that man has a free will to choose to wear
white socks or black socks... I do not dispute that.

However the Bible also teaches (because of Adam's rebellion)
man is born spiritually DEAD and that NO MAN, no, not even one
will ever seek God [Rom 3]

And Jesus said that NO MAN can come to Him unless the
Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"
and He would lose NONE of them.

So it is a gross error and contradictory to the Word of God
to say "God created man with the ability to reason, choose,
and receive [SPIRITUAL] truth.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

That is correct... man cannot have "faith" because they
are spiritually DEAD. Faith must be GIVEN to men as
a GIFT OF GOD

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

That is correct, we receive faith by hearing (or reading)
the Word of God. However, the question is WHO receives
that faith and the answer is ONLY those who God "draws",
only those who were elected before the foundation of the
world... because we are all born DEAD and cannot hear or
believe or have faith.

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

This is a true statement. But DEAD men cannot do this.
The CONTEXT of this verse is ONLY those who have been
saved.

When we read the Bible we have to discern whether the
CONTEXT of a verse is to the saved "wheat" or the
unsaved "tares". If we cannot discern the context
we have no hope of understanding the meaning
of a passage.

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Again, a true statement when the CONTEXT is those
God has already translated from DEATH to LIFE by making
them "born again" or "indwelt" with His Spirit.

This verse cannot be talking to DEAD MEN

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Man is responsible to seek God and to obey God (to get life)
However, because of Adam's sin all of us are born DEAD and
are not able to do that... how can a DEAD man do anything?

The Bible PROMISES that (unless they are saved) NO MAN
will seek God... no, not even one.

The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will come to Jesus unless
the Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws
"shall come" and Jesus will lose NONE of them.

So... when you post a verse that COMMANDS men to act...
you have to remember the Bible has already PROMISED that
NO MAN can act (unless they are saved)

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Of course all men are born DEAD and servants of Satan
(until God saves them)... so you can post 10,000 verses
that command men to "choose" and NO MAN can choose
unless he has already been translated from DEATH to LIFE.

All men are RESPONSIBLE to obey God
But ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and cannot obey.
That does not make them less responsible only unable.

Lazarus could get out of bed every day of his life... until he died
After being dead for four days Lazarus could not hear or choose
or believe or have faith or do ANYTHING because he was dead.

That is how we are all born spiritually.
We are as dead as Lazarus.

We can do NOTHING unless we were elected to be saved
and God has translated us from out DEATH into LIFE...
then we can "choose", then we can "obey" then we can
have "faith" and "keep His commandments"

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

Is this verse talking about someone who has been saved?
Or is this verse talking about someone who is still dead?
You have to DISCERN whether the verse is talking about
a saved "wheat" or an unsaved "tare" otherwise you
cannot HOPE to understand the meaning of the verse.

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

Yes, and we know the ONLY ones that RECEIVED him are
those he has elected and has translated from DEATH to LIFE
Otherwise the Bible says NO MAN will seek God and
NO MAN will come to Christ.

You can post 10,000 verses that are talking about the elect
and NONE of them apply to those who remain DEAD.

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

Again you post a verse talking about a saved person
and you pretend it applies to everybody and anybody...
I assure you it does NOT apply to DEAD MEN.

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

But tell me.... WHERE does that "faith" come from?
The Bible PROMISES it does NOT come from man.
The Bible PROMISES it is a GIFT FROM GOD


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT OF GOD:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

See Eph 2 above
This only applies to the elect

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

See Eph 2 above
This only applies to the elect

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

See Eph 2 above
This only applies to the elect... do you pretend DEAD MEN
can have faith?

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Exactly... those who are elect are GIVEN faith.
Those who are not elect are NOT given faith

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

The BIBLE (not Calvin) teaches that Jesus PAID for the sins
of "His Sheep".

If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYBODY then EVERYBODY
would be saved.

If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYBODY then the ONLY sin
man would EVER have to pay is the sin of not believing in Jesus.
But the Bible is very clear... men PAY for each one of their sins
(every idle word... and even sinful thoughts)

If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYBODY then all sin is PAID
the Bible NEVER says a sin must be PAID TWICE

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

This is ONLY talking about the saved (the elect)
"us all" = all of His Sheep

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

Again, only the elect

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Again... only the elect (the "whole world" = both Jew and Gentile)
Remember, before Jesus came God was ONLY saving Jews
After Jesus came, God saved Jew and Gentile
Jew + Gentile = whole world


Respectfully, I think we have gone through enough.

(1) You cannot just ASSUME a verse applies to EVERYBODY
because most apply ONLY to the saved "wheat"... but some
do apply to the unsaved "tares" (you just skipped them)

(2) What ever verse you read remember this:
The Bible PROMISES all men are born DEAD
The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will seek God (until saved)
The Bible PROMISES that NO MAN can come to Christ
(unless the Father "draws" them and ALL of those are saved)


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

CONCLUSION:

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.
.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


.

 

[5thKingdom]

So your saying that everyone is capable of repentance? Because the doctrine of total depravity teaches that man is incapable of repentance.

Second, God did not create men incapable of obeying Him.
Again, you are blaming God for Adam's sin. Blame Adam.


No, I am saying that God created man (Adam) with the ability
to obey. Adam rebelled and all his offspring are born spiritually DEAD
DEAD men cannot repent... they cannot do anything spiritual.
That is why the Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will seek God,
no, not even one [Rom 3] and that is why the Bible PROMISES
that NO MAN will come to Christ... unless the Father "draws"
them, and then ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come".

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Not if Adam is incapable of repentance. If God commanded you to jump to the moon and your incapable of doing it no matter how hard you try does that make you guilty of disobedience or does that make God’s commandment unjust since He knew before He made that commandment that no matter what you do or how hard you tried you could not possibly jump to the moon? A person must have the ability to comply in order to justly punish them for failing to meet a requirement.

It would make ADAM (not God) responsible.

God told Adam that the day he ate the fruit he would
(spiritually) DIE. And that is exactly what happened.

All men are responsible to obey God.
Adam ruined it for all his offspring, since all are born DEAD.
That is NOT God's fault, that is Adams fault.

God was merciful enough to chose or elect those who
He would save. The rest remain DEAD and destined to hell.
Thank God He would save ANYBODY.



Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

,

 

[5thKingdom]

And herein lies the problem with Calvin’s theology.

It is NOT Calvin's theology.
It is what the BIBLE teaches.
Focus on the Bible (Calvin means nothing)

Man cannot be justly punished for failing to meet expectations that he is INCAPABLE of meeting.

Man was created with the ability to obey.
God PROMISED if he did not obey he would DIE (spiritually)
Do you think God is a LIAR?
Blame Adam

Of course God being omnipresent and omniscient He would've already knew that man would be incapable of obeying. I agree to this point but where Calvin really made his mistake was by implying that man is incapable of repentance.

Why do you insist on talking about Calvin?
We are NOT talking about Calvin, we are talking about the BIBLE.

The Bible says that men are born DEAD.
DEAD men cannot repent.

The Bible says that NO MAN will seek God, no, not even one
[Rom3] That seem pretty clear to me... do you think that
the phrase NO MAN really means SOME MEN? Come on.

You see sin is irrelevant to salvation because all have sinned. The determining factor for salvation is repentance not sin.

Please tell me... how do DEAD MEN repent?

We all sin but only those who repent are saved.

And NO MAN will repent.
So God had to chose or elect some men to save.
You are arguing that it's not fair that God did not elect
ALL MEN.... we are lucky He elected SOME MEN.

Calvin’s theology

Who cares about Calvin?
Do you care what the BIBLE says or not?

There are a number of verses in the Bible that indicate God being angry at certain groups and individuals because they did not repent and this implies that God is expecting these individuals to repent. It wouldn’t make sense for God to get angry at man for failing to repent if those individuals were incapable of doing so. The expectation must be achievable in order for the punishment for failure to be justified.

That is a very worldly way of looking at it.
Unfortunately God is righteous and not worldly.
God said if Adam did not obey he would DIE... and he did.

God then saw that ALL MEN would be destined to hell
And, out of His Great Mercy, He chose SOME to save.
You are complaining He did not chose ALL to save.

Here is what God says to you:

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


You say that is not fair?
Here is what God says to you:


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Romans 2 suggests otherwise.

You skipped some verses:


Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here Jesus clearly expects Jezebel to repent and gives her time to do so but she refuses because she doesn’t want to.

I do not see your point.
She did not want to repent... no unsaved person does.
It does not imply she would be saved if she repented,
only that she might not suffer immediate judgment.

God calls all men to repent. None do.
He could strike them all down dead immediately.
Some He does, but most He does not. That does not
mean they will be saved, only that they do not suffer
immediate judgment.

I find it interesting that it's the opposite with the elect.
When the elect sin and fail to repent God does send
judgment against them to MAKE them correct course.

Kind of ironic.


.