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Not pre-destined for Hell.

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Behold, Jul 24, 2020.

  1. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    The question of the 'predestined elect", is always, generally, a totally confused original concept, because most of the people who preach or teach this idea, are about as confused as theologically confused could possibly be, .... and most of these hardened heretics are the most devout (self savers) Legalists, that you could possibly find. This group, are the people who teach that "god chooses some for hell, and some for heaven" .....
    These hyper religious people believe and teach that God is doing the devil's work. That God causes, ordains all the EVIL in the World.
    If this isn't the most Satanic theology ever created, then, good luck finding a worse one.

    I was talking to one of these pre-destined elect obsessed recently and i said, .."so, you have 9 people in your family, and all of you were chosen to be the elect, but your neighbor's family, only has 2 out of 6, so, why did God choose all of your family for Heaven, but send to hell 4 of your neighbor's kids ??......Their answer was.....SILENCE.
    As devout religious stupidity often gets really quiet when its exposed, ive noticed.

    Have you seen the '1980's movie....>"The Boy Who Could Fly".
    Well i have dealt with that "boy", who is now much older, as he is totally lost in the "predestined elect" heresy.
    I've tried to reach Him, but typical of this type of heretic, He is so very hardened inside the deceit, he is gone.

    So, here is how to think about Hyper Calvin's idea of "god chose 4 of your family for hell, but not the other 2". Crazy, isn't it?

    To understand how to understand this idea of "predestined elect" perfectly,= all you have to do is understand the NT concept of "foreknowledge", correctly.
    As its the foreknowledge of God that knows, in advance, who is going to go to the lake of fire, and who is going to be dancing in Glory, after they die.. And God knows this info, before they are born.

    Where Calvin got lost in it, and where most "predestined elect" heretics become upside down, is because they do not understand this concept, correctly. = "The Foreknowledge of God".

    Which is........That God KNOWS everything, (foreknowledge) but this does not mean He CAUSES everything.
    That God KNOWS everything before it Happens, (foreknowledge) is not the same as God causing everything that Happens.
    The pre-destined elect subverted cannot understand this and cannot see this simple spiritual logic.

    Once you absorb and master that idea, and get it down pat, you'll never be able to be led into the deception that God chooses some for Hell, and others for Heaven.
    God does not Choose your Eternity for you, ... Your Free Will decides where you end up.....But what God does KNOW< is what you are going to choose, even before He created Adam.

    Yeah, for quite a while... God has known what all of use will by FREEWILL choose to do with Jesus The Christ.

    Let me give you one more interesting Truth nugget to juggle..
    Everyone here, who is a born again Christian, until you learn to believe right has committed works of the flesh many many times after you were born again. And YET, God, on the Day He saved us ALL, knew you would. But He saved you anyway....
    So once you understand WHY HE DID. .....You have moved to the head of the class, because you have understood...."Justification by Faith", alone, and "The Gift of Righteousness".
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  2. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Active Member

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    It also helps to understand who the "elect" are. In the OT, this is about Jesus Christ and Israel. The born-again believers of the NT are different, they are said to be in Christ, that is, in the Elect One.
     
  3. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    good post ... the other thing Calvin got lost in is Gods sovereignty ... yes He is indeed sovereign .... but he deals with mankind through Love (ie the greatest of these is love)

    This shown by Him sending His son. Jesus stepped down off His throne to provide a way back to God .... this does not in any way dismiss His sovereignty ... He chooses how He uses His sovereignty. Sometimes through love (of which includes rebuking His own people) ... sometimes through wrath ... and/or any combination of His full character (attributes).

    We are to understand the complete fullness of God ... not just focus on one of His many attributes.
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That is just an ad hominem attack... how about addressing
    SCRIPTURE to refute a doctrine (of some unnamed group)?



    Another ad hominem attack... can you not just stick to what
    the BIBLE says?



    While we cannot know WHO you are talking about, because
    you refuse to present a honest argument and are working hard
    to create strawmen... I will say this:


    Real Saints do NOT teach that "god chooses some for hell, and
    some for heaven"... that is just an untrue statement. Did you
    make it out of ignorance or intellectual dishonesty, I cannot say.


    Most "Reformed" theologians teach that man has inherited
    "original sin" from Adam and they are BORN spiritually DEAD
    and, therefore, they are ALL headed to hell because their sin
    nature PREVENTS them from seeking God. Yes the Bible teaches
    [Rom 3] that NO MAN will seek God, no, not even one.


    However, in His Mercy and Grace, God "elects" or "chooses"
    those He decides to save (not based on their works but only
    on His Good Pleasure) and God saves those "chosen" from
    where ALL MEN belong, which is eternal damnation.


    So you see... there is a HUGE difference between the strawman
    you constructed and what Reformed theologians actually teach.
    Was you incorrect statement made out of ignorance or was it
    intellectual dishonesty? That I cannot say.



    Again, it is impossible to know WHO you are talking about
    since you refuse to identify them, but the same argument above
    applies here if you are talking about Reformed theologians. They,
    generally speaking, do not teach God "ordains all the evil in the
    world". But that evil is the result of man's sin nature.


    Are you speaking out of pure ignorance, or are you intentionally
    being intellectually dishonest? I cannot say.



    First, you have framed the strawman deceptively. The doctrine
    of election is NOT that God SENDS people to Hell... because, as
    already explained above ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and,
    therefore, are headed to hell. God has "chosen" certain people
    to SAVE from hell. That is altogether different than you say.


    And God has ANSWERED your question very clearly:


    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


    Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


    Rom 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



    There you go with your stawman arguements again...
    God did NOT choose 4 for hell and 2 for heaven because
    ALL 6 WERE GOING TO HELL


    Are you REALLY making these arguments out of ignorance?
    Or are you intentionally being intellectually dishonest...
    and, if so, WHY? Is it to promote a "works gospel"?



    Slow down buddy... where did you provide SCRIPTURE that
    says MAN can "choose" where he spends eternity? We have
    already seen [Romans 3:10-12] that NO MAN will ever SEEK
    after God... no, not even one.


    And we know from John 6 that NO MAN can come to Christ
    unless the Father first "draws" them. And ALL MEN the Father
    draws "shall come" to Jesus and He will lose NONE of "His Sheep".


    There is NO SCRIPTURE (NONE) that teaches man can "choose"
    to be saved because all men are born spiritually DEAD and our
    "free will" is to always sin. It is our NATURE to sin. We WANT
    to sin. We sin of our own "free will".



    Ask Lazarus about his "free will". Lazarus was DEAD... just like
    all men are born spiritually DEAD. Lazarus could not decide to
    save himself... just like all DEAD men cannot decide to save
    themselves. The Bible is clear NO MAN seeks God. You
    may not LIKE that Biblical reality... but there it is.


    Jesus had to CALL Lazarus (just like the Father must "draw" men)
    Jesus had to GIVE Lazarus the ears to HEAR that call and the will
    and strength to respond to that call (just as it is with every DEAD
    man ever born he must be "elected" to live and "drawn" to Christ).


    Lazarus is a PICTURE of all men born spiritually DEAD.
    They can do NOTHING. They will remain spiritually DEAD
    and spend eternity in hell unless the Father "elects" them,
    and then GOD will do everything needed to save that man.


    This is really very simple. Since the time of the Apostles there
    have been TWO major "Gospels" taught in the churches. The
    True Gospel teaches that men are DEAD and God is Sovereign.
    That God "elects" or "chooses" who He will save and then He
    does EVERYTHING to guarantee their eternal salvation.


    The second (false) gospel is that MAN is Sovereign and God
    will be obligated to save those who preform some WORK.
    This is called a "works gospel"... where God SEES what man
    has done and God then is obligated to save that person.
    But remember Lazarus... DEAD MEN can do nothing.


    Some teach you can save yourself by saying a "sinner's prayer"
    Some teach you can save yourself by making an altar call. Some
    teach you can save yourself by receiving water baptism. Some
    teach you can save yourself by "inviting" Jesus into your heart.
    Some teach you can save yourself by repenting of some sins.
    Some teach you can save yourself by "accepting" Jesus.... etc,


    Clearly the common thread in all these false "works gospels" is
    that MAN is Sovereign and MAN initiates the salvation process...
    then God SEES what (good work) man has done and THEN
    God is obligated to save that individual.


    So, instead of following the True Gospel (the narrow way) in which
    God is Sovereign and "elects" who He will save based ONLY on His
    Good Purpose.... there is a false "works gospel" that say MAN is
    Sovereign and MAN initiates his own salvation... this gospel is just
    a BOASTERS GOSPEL that teaches DO WHAT I DID to be saved,
    or else you deserve the hell you get. But this is (the BROAD WAY)
    This is the path most Christians follow, which is why FEW are saved.


    Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    and that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    The BOASTER'S GOSPEL is simple: It says MAN is Sovereign
    and MAN initiates his own salvation. Man creates some "faith"
    and God then SEES what a good thing that man has done and
    then God is then obligated to save that individual...


    However, the BIBLE (Eph 2:8-9 above) says that "faith"
    does NOT come from man... it is a GIFT OF GOD, so that
    no (saved) man can boast that he initiated his own salvation.


    So.... since the days of the Apostles, there have been those
    teaching that NO MAN can come to Christ unless "elected" by
    the Good Pleasure of God (not works)... this is the narrow way.
    And there are those teaching that MAN is Sovereign and MAN
    initiates his own salvation by doing some good work and THEN
    God SEES that good work and is obligated to save that person
    ... this is the BROAD WAY that leads to destruction.


    If you hear someone preaching "do this to be saved" or
    "do that to be saved"... then you know you are hearing the
    BOASTER'S GOSPEL which says God is not Sovereign, but MAN
    is Sovereign and God is obligated to save any/all men when they perform some good "work".


    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  5. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Faith Elects.
    God saves.
     
  6. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    The Cross of Christ is not just available to SOME.
    So, the heretics that teach that the Cross is only for the "elect" are lying.
     
  7. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    ""ALL that call on the Name of Jesus shall be saved.
    As MANY as RECEIVED Jesus, to them God gave the power to become the Sons of God
    For God so loved the world that HE GAVE His only Begotten son that WHOSOEVER......BELIEVETH.....""""
     
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    well ... I wouldn't necessarily say they are lying .... lying is deliberate ... rather I would say they misunderstand some things.
     
  9. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Let say you are not born again and you are 33 yrs old.
    And you meet a "pre-destined" elect obsessed in a Park who is feeding squirrels some nutz out of a brown paper bag that has the word "nutz" on it.
    They have a T-Shirt on that says...>"God ordained it, bad or good, He's to blame".
    So, you ask them "what's up with that shirt" ?
    And they proceed to tell you that you might be one who God chose to burn in hell, as this would explain why you are not already saved and are in your 30's.

    So, if you can find anything but theological insanity in that type of mentality then you are not LOOKING VERY CLOSELY, eleos1954.


    LOOK AGAIN.
     
  10. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    You miss what I am saying .... I certainly do not believe in pre-destination ... you call them liers .... what I am saying they are not deliberating lying .... they are deceived ... and are propagating the deception.
     
  11. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    If you teach deception, you are teaching LIES.
    If you teach lies, what are you ??
    Listen..
    these people give God credit for doing the Devil's work.
    That is how twisted it is........
    "God ordained (caused) all the EVIL in the world".
    That is what they will teach in PULIC, in CHURCH...
    They accuse GOD of doing the Devil's work.
     
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    so you think they are intentionally being deceptive?

    Luke 23:24

    Berean Study Bible
    Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
     
  13. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Im saying that a Lie is not less of a lie if you dont understand you are the liar.

    Its like this..
    If one of these people were to convince your child that they were going to go to hell, and they became mentally unstable for life.... are you going to be content to know that "well, this person that ruined my child, didn't know any better"..

    So, maybe you have not understood that God is Light and evil is Dark.
    Christians are the Children of the Light, and The children of the devil are his dark lights.
    Jesus said..>"be careful that the Light in you, is not DARKNESS".
    That is their light......Its darkness.. Its darkness pretending to be Light.
    The Devil comes as an angel of LIGHT< and his ministers AS the ministers of RIGHTEOUSNESS>
    So, they will quote verses, speak christainese, build churches, Mod forums, and DECIVE YOU if possible.
     
  14. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    and that's what I am saying .... they don't know they are being deceptive .... that is the epitome of what deception means .... not knowing.

    Lying is the act of telling something known to be false. Deceiving is ... Misleading ... causing someone to have a wrong idea or impression of something thinking/believing it is the truth themselves. ie self-deception.

    Eve was deceived

    2 Corinthians 11:3
    But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
     
  15. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Did God hold Eve accountable for being deceived?
    Hell is more full today then it was yesterday, because deceived people went there this morning, and there will be more of the deceived found there in the next few seconds.
    God does not make exceptions for being deceived.
    Believe it.
    Its like this..
    If you are deceived and your deceptive theology harms others, you will be judged for the harm you have caused, even tho you were deceived.
    Believe it.
    You WILL reap what you sow.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    and so ... your approach to helping others out of their deception is calling them liars?
     
  17. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    you have not much experience with dealing with Heretics.
    And you have apparently none with dealing with the "pre-destined" elect Group.
    Once you gain some experience with these types, you'll find that they are gone.
    They don't come back from it.....that i've ever seen...
    You can give HAMMSTER here a try if you like as this person is one of them..
    See how that works out, and remember to show them "love". Ok?

    What i do, is try to protect new believers from them....as that is possible to do and so very very needful.
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    How does "Faith Elect"?
    You say the most ridiculous and un-Biblical things.


    It is GOD who elects... before the foundation of the world.
    Without regard to any good or evil that man will do.
    Do you need me to provide SCRIPTURES
    to correct your "feelings" above?

    .
     
  19. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    We understand that is your "feeling" or your "opinion"
    But the BIBLE teaches "election", Jesus taught "election",
    so how do you harmonize your "feelings" with what Jesus said?

    Do you simply REJECT or intentionally IGNORE all the passages
    that you do not like?

    That means you are NOT following the Gospel of the Bible...
    you have designed your own gospel to follow.


    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  20. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That is good... now HARMONIZE those verses with
    "NO MAN" can come to Christ unless the Father first "draws"
    them and "ALL MEN" the Father draws "shall come" to Christ
    and He will lose NONE of them, and raise then ALL on the last day.


    You see... when you believe the verses you LIKE and you REJECT
    the verses you don't like (or that contradict you) then you are not
    believing the Gospel at all... you are designing your own "gospel",
    You are making a "works" gospel or a "BOASTERS GOSPEL".


    (1) For God so loved the world = both Jew and Gentile
    Jew + Gentile = the whole world... but that does not mean
    the whole world is in heaven. Hell is heavily populated.
    You must understand the CONTEXT of the entire Gospel.


    (2) Whosoever believeth must be harmonized with Scripture
    that says NO MAN will believe, no, not even one... UNLESS
    the Father has already "drawn" them to Christ. So your
    theory is only telling a HALF TRUTH because it does not
    include the Biblical fact that NONE seek God, no, not one
    You must understand the CONTEXT of the entire Gospel.


    (3) All that call on the name of Jesus = all that the Father
    has already "drawn" to Christ... and NONE other. You are
    only embarrassing yourself when you PRETEND that ALL MEN
    can call on (meaning believe in) the name of Jesus. Demons
    believe who Jesus was... clearly Demons are not also saved.
    You must understand the CONTEXT of the entire Gospel.


    (4) As many as "received" Him = those who God "elected"
    before the foundation of the world... and NO OTHERS. If you
    teach that ANYONE can "receive" Him then you are contradicting
    a TON of Scriptures that teach that NO MAN can receive Him
    unless and until the Father first "draws" them and ALL MEN
    the Father draws "shall come" to Jesus, and He loses NONE.
    You must understand the CONTEXT of the entire Gospel.


    You see... when you do not understand the CONTEXT of the
    Gospel you can only end-up with a "BOASTERS GOSPEL" that
    pretends MAN is Sovereign and MAN initiates their salvation.


    There is nothing NEW here:
    Throughout the history of the church, from the time of John
    the Baptist until today, there have been TWO (2) major gospels.


    (1) The True Gospel that teaches NO MAN will seek God, no, not
    even one [Rom 3:10-12] That ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD
    and are not able to do anything... they are all headed to hell. So,
    God "chooses" or "elects" certain people before the foundation of
    the world (not on any "works" they will do, but ONLY on His Good
    Pleasure)
    and, sometime during that person's life, God "draws"
    them to Jesus... and they are saved. This is the narrow way.


    (2) The false "works gospel" teaches that men are NOT born
    spiritually DEAD... they have just enough life in them to be able
    to do some works (as listed before) in order to save themselves.
    This "works gospel" teaches that MAN is sovereign in salvation
    that MAN initiates the salvation process by doing some "work"
    and then God is OBLIGATED to save that person. This is the
    BROAD WAY that leads Christians to eternal destruction.


    You preach the "BOASTER'S GOSPEL" that teaches that men
    are NOT born spiritually dead, they have enough life to do some
    good "work" to save themselves. You preach that men can have
    "faith" (when the Bible insists faith is a GIFT OF GOD) and you say
    that after men decide to have "faith"... then God will SEE that good
    "work" that man has done and God is OBLIGATED to save the man.
    Your gospel pretends MAN is sovereign and MAN initiates salvation.
    That is why your "works" gospel is called a "BOASTER'S GOSPEL"


    Eph 2:8-9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    and that [faith is] NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Not of works, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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