Non-Public Education and Taxes.

[stivvy]

Stiv:... Most of the higher cost of the public system comes from teacher unions. Public school teachers and admin make more money and get more perks than private ones (and they deserve it).

I grew up in the private school system from a family of 12 kids and a father who worked in the mills and a mother who cleaned offices to make ends meet.

I know many of you will say "see not everyone who comes out of private schools are smarter, hahaha". So now that that is out of the way..

Most of my peers were in the same situation financially as my family. But there was a purpose behind the decision to put 12 kids through private schools K-12 for 25 years straight. The quality.

 

[Fantine]

I grew up in the private school system from a family of 12 kids and a father who worked in the mills and a mother who cleaned offices to make ends meet.

Thank goodness that every parish school I know of has a "family maximum" policy--second kid goes for 50% tuition, third and subsequent kids go for free.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Thank goodness that every parish school I know of has a "family maximum" policy--second kid goes for 50% tuition, third and subsequent kids go for free.

I agasinst this kind of policy and most school where I live don't have it

Why should other people in the school, some of whom are just barely making it away, subsidize my children ?

Worse yet, why should the teacher suffer with less pay just to subsidize my multiple chiledren family.

 

[BAFRIEND]

At my last parish we could always expect the periodic lecture about fixing the air conditioning at the school. This was year after year. That and resurfacing the parking lot, year after year. And neither seemed to get done.

I always sat and wondered, "Why, if we have some 200+ familys with kids in this school, can't the parents pool their money to fix the air conditioning ? My air conditioning works just fine.

The last gimmick was to send me an envelope asking me to donate to the school to help with tuition. LOL, what about the familys in our parish who barely make ends meet whose children go without and sit in the public schools ? In the letter it said if you do not contribute, send the envelope back with your prayrers. LOL, oldest trick in the book. I receive 5 to 6 envelopes that go in the collection every single month, LOL- go get my money from the Priest.

 

[NiteClerk]

At my last parish we could always expect the periodic lecture about fixing the air conditioning at the school. This was year after year. That and resurfacing the parking lot, year after year. And neither seemed to get done.

I always sat and wondered, "Why, if we have some 200+ familys with kids in this school, can't the parents pool their money to fix the air conditioning ? My air conditioning works just fine.

Get involved. Start attending meetings, then ask where the money goes. It could be that your school has one big giant chiller that will cost around $50,000 to fix. So the money goes into a fund until they have enough. I'm glad your a-c works fine. But this sounds like me saying I don't donate to charity because I have enough to eat and a place to sleep.

The last gimmick was to send me an envelope asking me to donate to the school to help with tuition. LOL, what about the familys in our parish who barely make ends meet whose children go without and sit in the public schools ? In the letter it said if you do not contribute, send the envelope back with your prayrers. LOL, oldest trick in the book. I receive 5 to 6 envelopes that go in the collection every single month, LOL- go get my money from the Priest

That's odd. Because on your post of 8th June 2007 11:47 AM you said

...We have kids in our parish whose familys cannot afford the luxuary of paying for a Catholic education. Yet, the Church asks for no money for them ...

Our Priest constantly stresses Time, Talent or Treasurery. Give something back to the community. Thankfully my entire family does volunteer work for the Parish on a regular basis. So my kids are growing up not being selfish and greedy.

 

[rusmeister]

As a former public teacher, I find that all discussions of public education get mired down in details. Everybody knows something, everybody has different opinions, nothing changes.

What few ever think of is the driving philosophy that determines all decisions made around public education and who's making them. In addition, most people never see what happens behind the curtains, either in the teacher prep programs (who teaches the teachers?) or in the schools themselves (at staff meetings, for example), or at county or state ed. Most parents just assume that the schools are actually doing what they suppose they are doing.

I'd like to offer you 2 critical questions raised by John Stormer:
...If you ever get the opportunity, ask your state or local superintendent these two questions. The questions were:
1) What do you see the nature of man to be?
2) What should be his purpose in life?

...invariably an educator will answer, "We don't deal with questions like that."...it is impossible to construct a system or philosophy of education without consciously or unconsciously making a definite determination about a child's basic nature and what his purpose in life should be. Those answers ultimately control all other education decisions.

These are precisely the answers you will not be able to get out of these people (unless you are a teacher candidate), and yet those answers determine what they intend to have your kids taught.

I started a thread here a while back. It tells part of the story of a teacher (me) that went through the system in a way that enabled him to see that behind-the-curtain stuff.

If you look, one thing you will find striking is that few, if any, responded to any points in my posts - everyone just wanted to state and argue their opinions. That, I think, is what makes any discussion on education useless - everybody has opinions, and assume that all opinions are created equal.

 

[BrRichSFO]

Familys that home school or place their children in private eduction should not receive public vouchers, tax breaks, or financial incentives to do so.

We all benefit from the public education system. Most of us received a public education and are benefiting from it, so it is only right we pay back into the system so that other children can benefit as we have,

Providing a public education to the general population benefits all of society and by diverting funds from the system and allowing some not to pay into it because they provide a priviledged education to their own children is wrong.

Personally I think that there should be a minimum of tax support required from each taxpayer. But those who home school and attend other private schools should receive a rebate on a portion for the purchase of materials, books, etc.

 

[stivvy]

....The last gimmick was to send me an envelope asking me to donate to the school to help with tuition. LOL, what about the familys in our parish who barely make ends meet whose children go without and sit in the public schools ? In the letter it said if you do not contribute, send the envelope back with your prayrers. LOL, oldest trick in the book. I receive 5 to 6 envelopes that go in the collection every single month, LOL- go get my money from the Priest.

A bit bitter about something brotha? What is the real issue here? The church is formed to be a group that comes together to not only worship but to help each other grow. You church electing to have a school to teach children the catholic ways is a wonderful alternative.

We had to close ours due to lack of interest and only having about 55 students signed up. It was a very emotional decision but a neccessary one by all of us in the parish advisory board.

I know times are tight for everyone, but don't take it out on the church. If you have issues with the way the church is doing things, work to get on the advisory board that helps make the decisions.

Praying that you get more peace in your heart and embrce the church a bit more or at least understand its position. You may not agree on it, but at least understand it and support it as a member.

Love ya my brotha from a different motha!

 

[rusmeister]

Although I hope someone notices my previous post (it's about what really matters), I'll add that I attended a Baptist Christian high school that used a homeschool style individual curriculum and hired no formal teachers, making the whole thing possible - attendance varied from 30 to 60 kids - I graduated from it and went on to ace the public standard exams. Just to say that I think a Catholic school that thought outside the box (of hiring teachers, f.e.) could make it, even in a relatively small parish.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

No. If only people who use public schools pay for public schools, the entire purpose is defeated and you've just created a government run private school system that will be bankrupt very quickly since taxes from only families that use the schools will never be enough to finance them.

 

[rusmeister]

Did my post above (#46) kill this thread?

 

[Maggie893]

We all benefit from our neighbor's kids going to school, so we all pay for it.

Here's where the problem lies. The public school system spends more money keeping the kids in school, safe and fed then educating. Schools have become gang training grounds and drug drop locations. With private education, because the parents pay, the kids are held accountable for their behavior by the parents and by the school. It's not to say that the same scenarios that occur in public schools do not occur at all in private schools but to a much lesser degree and with a higher penalty.

In my opinion this is just one more area where what was intended as assistance, has become entitlement. As soon as we started forcing attendance and subsidizing all associated costs, responsibility for the children shifted to the schools and away from the parents.

The crux of this discussion seems to be that people don't believe that what they are paying for is of value. I can agree with that. The difficulty I have is how to reconcile that with the fact that in Maine 35% of students receive free or reduced lunches which means that their families are at or below 185% of poverty level. (In Maine, 185% of poverty is $6,000 per year shy of the median income) So for those families that actually want the education and are willing to work hard, there needs to be a means for them to have their children educated.

I believe that returning to private schooling is the best way long term but how to transition it is beyond me.

 

[stivvy]

Another problem I have with the Public Schools is the indoctrination of secular politics and many liberal idiologies in the system. Tolerance education for "diversity in lifestyle" and compliancy to reactions to world events such as the muslim practices that were performed after 9/11.

I also have an issue what may being taught or not taught in regards to things such as history and our basic constitutional rights not being taught.

It is almost funny how when I discuss these things with my nephews and nieces now a days, they have no clue what I am talking about. I ask if they learned the meaning of each point in the bill of rights and they said they only learn of what the bill of rights are and show me the book and sure enough, they have no more than a couple paragraphs on how it came around. We had chapters about it when I was a kid.

Just crazy IMHO.

 

[Angelus00]

What, exactly, make a private school education "luxury"? I would love to take my hard-earned tax dollars that are earmarked for "public" education and put it where I think it should be. My parish school provides tuition assistance to those Catholic families that want to get (or keep) their children out of the public school quagmire. Yep, I help pay for that. I send my child to our parish school as well AND I drive a relatively nice vehicle. Do I make bookoo bucks? No. Just make the sacrifice necessary to make sure my child and children in my parish get a decent education.

Education is a "right"? Where would that "right" be found? Bill of Rights? No. Constitution? No. hhhmmmm

Sounds more, to me, like envy and jealously thinly masked as self-righteous indignation. If the school system doesn't work, why pour bad money after good? And many school districts DON'T work. They DON'T provide anything resembling a GOOD education. WHY would I want to pay for children to get a sub-standard education?

Sorry. I only read the first page and the posting whiner really got my dander up.

 

[Angelus00]

I agree, lets make our schools better. The way to do that is not to give them less money.

Mike, I don't WANT you to fund my child's education. But, I WOULD like the money I pay into the education "fund" to be available to pay for the school of my choice. My contribution, not yours.

 

[Angelus00]

Wrong,

just because you don't have children does not mean you have not benefited from a public education. Chances are, you spent 12 years of your life being publically educated and you should pay back into the system. Everyone benefits from a public eduaction. Society is enhanced because of it.

Yeah, BA, I spent 12 years in the "system" and had SO much catch up to do that I might as well have forgone the experience. Waste of time and money. My education was at home after school. Even THEN, my parents could see the handwriting on the wall. They were products of the school-of-hard-knocks and could see that the entire school system was seriously flawed. So, they engaged in what is know called home-schooling. Then it was just a matter of "well if you're going to KNOW anything when you "graduate" we'll have to teach it to you, cuz ya AIN'T gonna get it in school" resignation. If they could've taken their tax contribution to education out, they would've. I have NOTHING to "pay back" to the education system.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

Stiv:


I don't think that overall the public schools provide worse an opportunity or chance to succede. The fact is that kids in private schools come from backgrounds from which those kids have the support economically and socially to succede. They are in the demographics of success while public schools often times have students that come from homes that are deprived of basic needs and support. Most of the higher cost of the public system comes from teacher unions. Public school teachers and admin make more money and get more perks than private ones (and they deserve it).

That's right. I went to private schools and had a great educational experience, but I also came from a literate and educated family that taught me many things before school had a chance to. And while in school, my family supported my education and was able to continue guiding me because they had the educational background to help me.

And on the salaries, private Catholic school teachers around here don't get paid jack squat. Public school teachers make decent money (they're far from rich), but my friend started teaching last year in a Catholic high school and wow does he not make much money.

 

[Angelus00]

Stiv:


I don't think that overall the public schools provide worse an opportunity or chance to succede. The fact is that kids in private schools come from backgrounds from which those kids have the support economically and socially to succede. They are in the demographics of success while public schools often times have students that come from homes that are deprived of basic needs and support. Most of the higher cost of the public system comes from teacher unions. Public school teachers and admin make more money and get more perks than private ones (and they deserve it).

Not EVEN, BA! Point of fact, my parish is an urban parish and many of the 300+ student come from the urban side of the house. The public school from which they're coming is failing hediously. They cry that they need more money, but, it's not solving their problem.

 

[Angelus00]

I'm a little confused about the poll, but I think that everyone's taxes should go toward public education, because we all benefit from having a well-educated public, even if we don't have kids who attend.

But ARE they "well-educated"? The answer in a lot of instances is NO! The system is fatally flawed. Perhaps if school districts had to COMPETE to get students? I don't have an answer.

When my older children were attending school, my financially situation was much the same as my parents so I HAD to send them to public school. So I did what my parents did. The kids went to school and when they got home the went to school AGAIN (home kind).

 

[MikeK]

Education is a "right"? Where would that "right" be found? Bill of Rights? No. Constitution? No. hhhmmmm

I believe a basic education IS a right of children living in this country as rich as ours is. That it is not guaranteed specifically in the constitution or BOR is neither here nor there. Is it your belief that the rights of people change with our government? The Bill of Rights is subject to change at any time. The basic rights of men do not, nor do right and wrong.

Sounds more, to me, like envy and jealously thinly masked as self-righteous indignation.

Envy of who, exactly?

WHY would I want to pay for children to get a sub-standard education?

Because it's better than not paying and them getting no education....unless you belive that you and others can withdraw their support for public schools and expect the government to continue educating kids who's parents simply cannot afford or don't care enough to pay to educate them.

I would never argue that public school as we know it isn't a mess. If you don't like it, volunteer and help fix it, don't just take your money away and hope that the situation improves. If you're spending your own time and money educating children that you are not a guardian for - you know, actively giving of yourself to FIX the problem - I could see you not having to pay to educate the general population. If your only reason that you shouldn't have to pay is because you already pay for the tuition of your own kids at a private school, that isn't enough. You owe the country more than that.

You seem to think that you shouldn't have to pay to educate children if you don't think that the education they're getting is up to your standards. Fine. I happen to believe that the billions we spend on maintaining a strategic nuclear triad is poorly spent, we could easily eliminate our land based ballistic missile force and reduce our pathetic excuse for a strategic bomber force by at least 80%, thereby having our ballistic missile submarines shoulder the large majority of our strategic defence - it would be cheaper and every bit as effective as a deterrent. Many people agree with me - should we get our money back because we don't like the way the government wastes it, or should we petition our elected officials to make better decisions while working to educate the general population about our concerns?