Non-Biblical Practices done by Catholic believers

[Mountainmike]

The sad thing is, it doesnt matter how many times you point out to such posters the scriptures that prove the assertion of the thread title is WRONG!!!!! Anticatholics will keep posting with this same rubbish and others echo it ad infinitum.

Whereas Scripture ACTUALLY says...
Paul called himself "father" 1 Corinthians 4:15
The prophecy of the holder of keys is called father "Isaiah 22:21"
Isaiah 22:21 is why we call our pope "father" which is what pope means! Doh!
Indeed God asks Abram to call himself father!!! Genesis 17:5

Indeed look at jewish writings of that era, and you see religious leaders were called father as a mark of respect!
Which is why in John 8:39 notes them saying Abraham is their father, And Jesus does not contradict them.( how could he? that was the name God gave Abraham!) ..he tells them they should listen to what Abraham said!

So the OP COMPLETELY IGNORES what scripture ACTUALLY says!
Whilst Catholics accept it because of scripture, not in spite of it, and also because of faith handed down, "tradition" to which Paul tells us to "hold true"
So call no man father is cleary Hyperbole...(Obviously)
Because even God calls some men father! Scripture says it!

Perhaps the OP would like to consider you cannot simultaneously take a literal interpretation of
"honour father and mother" "hate father and mother" and "call no man father" without cognitive dissonance that is Simultaneous accepting complete contradiction!

So Please ALL stop repeating the same anticatholic nonsense! Ill wager another thread will pop up in the next few weeks, with all the same nonsense, even by the same posters.

 

[Vicomte13]

Some..make themselves.. it is never imposed upon them. Its a non biblical rule.
And that is the point of the Op.

Yes, it is a disciplinary rule. The example of Jesus was made a hard and fast rule in one of the 23 rites of the Catholic Church (22 others have married priests), because of local conditions in Catholic Europe in the 1000s. It's a rule that could be changed.

The Bible does not say how, exactly, a licit baptism is to be performed either. It gives an example, but doesn't say that it MUST be done that way. But you wouldn't know that wasn't a hard and fast rule given all of the bells and whistles that the most dominant Protestant group in America has put on it.

Most importantly to the whole discussion. The Bible never says that the Bible is the rule for everything. It says that God is. God only speaks directly and at length in the Torah, the Gospels, the opening pages of Acts, and the Revelation. The Bible points back to God everywhere else, so really, if we're going to be using the Bible to find the rules, then we need to actually use the rule within the Bible, which is that God rules, and focus on the parts of the Bible where God is speaking directly, and not on the rest of it, which is history and sermons of men, but not God speaking directly and giving laws and precepts.

Oh, I know that plenty of people say that the rest of it is all of the same authority, because it's all "Bible", but that rule is not in the Bible. Rather, Jesus said that man lives on "Every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God", and "Follow ME". So that's where Bible tells us our focus ought to be: on YHWH, Elohiym, the Father, and Jesus. They spoke plenty, directly, and gave all of the laws and rules. So that's where Bible itself tells us we should be looking.

Paul was a pastor, his letters are sermons. That's great, but it's not law. And the Bible doesn't tell you it is. Traditions ABOUT the Bible say that it's Bible (Bible doesn't define Bible, or use the term). BIble tells you to listen to God. Tradition elevates Paul's, James', Peter's, Jude's and John's letters to the status of God, because "Holy Spirit", but neither Jesus nor the Father ever said to do that. Nor did Paul, James, Peter, Jude or John.

Traditions abound. Usually they hang on something in the Bible, like priestly celibacy in the Western precincts of the Catholic Church reposes on something Jesus said. You're right that Jesus didn't make it a rule. Nor is it a rule that the Bible is above all else as a source of authority. Traditions tell us these things, and we find echoes of them in the Bible, and that becomes the basis on which arguments are made.

Pointless arguments. Nobody was ever convinced of anything by these arguments, other than that their interlocutor is a jerk...and that kind of cuts against Christian charity and brotherhood. So I'm going to step away from the discussion. I'm not going to learn anything from it, only be reminded why I don't talk about religion with people. And nobody who disagrees is going to learn anything from it either. It will turn into a debate game, which bored me even in high school. And then people will get nasty, in that peculiarly Christian passive-aggressive way of theirs. And then I'll react to it in a straightforward manner that cuts through the snark. And then I'll get another warning and end up banned.

The game ain't worth the candle. Believe whatever you want to believe - you're going to do that anyway, so why waste breath and time debating what is already pre-decided in every mind that cares.

 

[Vicomte13]

It's not clear if you want the thread to be focused on PRACTICES or DOCTRINE.

Clearly they are inter-related but they are not the same.

There are many practices in the Catholic such as burning incense, forumalaic prayer and worship, robes, confessional box, etc.

It's a simple fact that these things are not in the bible!

..but I think to try to simplistically argue if something's not in the bible then it's not right because the bible doesn't cover so many things.... so if we want to be ridiculous the bible doesn't say we can or cannot shake hands!

The question for me, therefore, are any of the practices of the Catholic Church based on false beliefs that are contrary to the bible?

My answer would be YES absolutely!

Take the biggest one! The Eucharist!

Catholics argue that the juice and waffer litrerally become the body and blood of our Saviour on the basis that they take Christ's words LITERALLY. Protestants argue these things were never meant to be literal but are symbolic. Catholicism seems to have a fair point but they don't! You see, they actually defeat their own argument when you ask why does the juice still look like juice and taste like juice and the waffer still look like a waffer and taste like a waffer? I've tried the before juice and waffer and the after juice and waffer... trust me for all possible human measures they are the same! But Catholics have an answer to this.... because they don't change physically because they change spiritually. Christ is not LITERALLY there in blood and body but spiritually. Did you see how they defeated their own argument? The reason.... they argued that the bible must be understood LITERALLY when it comes to the blood and body and then proceeded to say the juice and waffer aren't LITERALLY the blood and body.

For me this means that Catholic of Eucharist is deeply flawed. They are partaking in a ceremony with an understanding that is fundamentally wrong... and more than that.... the Catholic Church goes one further by inferring if Catholics don't partake of the Catholic sacrements (principle of which is the Eucharist) then salvation is at stake...and this to is CONTRARY to scripture.

Other things the Catholic teaches that are flawed...

Apostolic Succession because they teach contrary to the apostles! So for example Jesus believed and taught LITERAL six day creation as did His disciples... yet the Catholic Church has NEVER incorporated this doctrine "officially" and most Catholics today seem to believe in theistic evolution!

Church will be united because they claim Christ's prayer has to be fulfilled and despite the fact that the ONLY church shown in the bible is not united in the way Catholics claim.

Only the Catholic Church has salvation... OK they've softened on this one but for the vast part of history the Catholic Church taught if you weren't Catholic you were off to hell... but even today they are confused! The Catholic Church cannot say officially if men like Wigglesworth, Wesley, Spurgeon, etc were sent by God or not. This is because it's stupid to deny the power of God on such men's lives but then that's a problem when they weren't Catholic.

Forgivenss of sins... is another area of confusion for the Catholic. They use biblical texts to argue that we can forgive and not forgive sins that they apply only to the Catholic priesthood, but then accept only God can forgive. If they were acting with God's direction to forgive and not forgive then two things would be absolutely plain... 1)They would never get it wrong - ie. forgive someone who wasn't repentant. Does God make mistakes?
2) They would be pronouncing not forgiven too... and they never do that!

Prayer to the Saints... Catholics argument for this is curiously based on the lack of condemnation in the bible.. .ie. God didn't say we can't! Irrespective, Catholics cannot answer if by Praying to the Saints we increase our chances of getting a prayer answered? This is because the Catholic Church has no official position on this and is, for me, clear evidence that the Catholic Church does not understand prayer. The vast majority of Catholics seem to believe prayer is about changing God.

Then there's purgatory, indulgences, infallibility of the Pope, etc.

Purgatory is in the Bible. The Jewish word for Purgatory is Gehenna.

 

[Alithis]

It doesn't say they cannot be single.

sure,if you bend backwards and twist to the left as much as you can

 

[gym_class_hero]

I believe there are Catholics that are true Christians. I don't believe I'd stay in a church with such a shameful history of condoning, covering up and denying so many cases of sexual abuse.

 

[rturner76]

I'm just jumping in without having read most of this thread. It is understandable that Catholics have practices that are not found in the Bible. Mostly because we believe there are statutes, practices, and other things, all of which we call "Traditions" that we believe and follow that have been taught since before the Biblical cannon was finalizes.

For 1600 or so years, we have had a complete Bible which we consider the inspired word of God. Most of what we know about Christianity can be found within it's pages. However, during the first 400 or so years, there were the letters from the Apostles and gospels that were circulated through the world of the early Church that were read when people gathered for prayers and Eucharist everywhere from the large church bodies like Rome and Jerusalem to the small home and cell churches. Because they had no Catechism or even an organized New Testament Bible, many of Christ's teachings that were given to the Apostles were taught orally. This is the origin of what we now know as 'Apostolic Succession." T and student beginning with Jesus Christ he "Apostolic Succession" is the unbroken line of teacher and student beginning with Jesus teaching the Disciples and them going forward teaching and planting churches and so forth through the years down through the generations until today..

Once the Biblical canon was finalized and the letters and gospels were collected in the New Testament, much of the oral tradition and statutes were now written down. So the oral tradition became less relevant. The the Protestant churcches eliminated it all together. Catholics however, still adhere to the oral tradition

So, long story longer, Catholics use both The Bible and oral tradition

 

[lincomen]

Papacy and Ecclesiast Tradition Pt. 1

1962-65 - 21st ECUMENICAL COUNCIL (Vatican II) convened by John XXIII and completed by Paul VI to restore the UNITY of CATHOLICISM in view of world dominion. To this effect, some 16 decrees were promulgated, namely:

(1) on the constitution of the Church,
(2) on the instruments of social communication,
(3) on the Church in the modern world,
(4) on divine REVELATION,
(5) on the sacred liturgy,
(6) on the Ecumenism,
(7) on Eastern Catholic Churches,
(8) on the Bishop’s pastoral office in the Church,
(9) on priestly formation,
(10) on the appropriate renewal of the religious life,
(11) on the apostolate of the laity,
(12) on the ministry and life of priests,
(13) on the Church’s missionary activity,
(14) on Christian education,
(15) on the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions,
(16) on religious freedom.

1960 - The official beginning of a NEW POLICY between the THREE ROMES (Vatican, Constantinople and Moscow): peaceful coexistence and Ecumenical Movement.

1954 - Queenship of Mary (Pius XII).

1950 - Assumption of Mary (Pius XII).

1948 - Roman Catholics forbidden to take part in public discussions of religious questions without the permission of the Holy See. (Pius XII).

1929 - The LATERAN TREATY (between Mussolini and Pius XI):
a) Restoration of the Pope’s Temporal Power,
b) CREATION of the STATE of VATICAN CITY,
c) Recognition of the Pontiff’s Status, as a Sovereign Prince.
Undur Pius IX (1846-78):
a) St. Joseph proclaimed Patron of the R. C. Church,
b) Papal States incorporated into the new Kingdom of Italy,
c) Rome was made the Capital of that State.

1869-70 - I VATICAN ( the 20th Ecumenical Council) called by Pius IX to proclaim the SUPREMACY of the POPE over the R. C. Church and PAPAL INFALLIBILITY.

1854 - The dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary by Pope Pius IX. (Mary was declared immune from all taint of original sin.)

1545 - 1563 - The COUNCIL of TRENT (the 19th Ecumenical Council) convened by Pope Paul III.
Here are some of its decisions:
1 - the traditions of men were put on the same level as God’s Word,
2 - the interpretation of the Bible according to the Catholic Church,
3 - the merit of Christ is applied to adults and infants by baptism,
4 - no one can be sure that he has obtained the grace of God,
5 - justification can be increased by observing the Law of God and of the Church,
6 - the seven sacraments are necessary to salvation,
7 - the whole Christ is in both the bread and the wine (Transubstantiation),
8 - only bishops and priests have the power to forgive or to retain sins,
9 - the invocation of the saints, the veneration of the relics, sacred images and painting as well as indulgences were highly appraised.

1512 -1517 - The 18th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under two Popes, Julius II and Leo X, while the Emperor was Maximilian I. It met in St. John Lateran. The immortality of the soul was defended. It denied that philosophical truth is independent of revealed dogma.

1508 - 1580 - Composition and approbation of the second part of the rosary («Holy Mary...»).

1500 - Propagation of the devotion to St. Joseph.

1447 - 1503 - The Papacy became a source of moral corrpution: monasteries and convents lived in luxury, debauchery and immorality; Clerical concubinage was prevalent.

1439 - The Council of Florence enacted a decree declaring a General Council to be supreme in matters of faith.

1433 - 1440 - Two scholars discovered that the so called DONATION of CONSTANTINE, which was used for so long to justify the claims for Papal civil Sovereignty, was a mere FORGERY.

1431 - 1445 - The 17th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under Pope Eugene IV and Emperor Sigismond. At first, it met at Basle, then was transferred to Ferrara and, finally, to Florence. Another temporary reunion was effected between the Eastern Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

1414 - 1415 - The withdrawal of the cup from the laity in the communion.

1414 - 1418 - The 16th Ecumenical Council held at Constance, during the Great Papal Schism. According to R. C. authorities, this council became legitimated when Gregory XII formally convoked it. During that council, the First John XXIII was openly deposed, while Gregory XII resigned and Benedict XIII, refusing to abdicate, was also deposed.
Thus, the Great Papal Schism was ended by the election of a new Pope called Martin V.

1410 - 1415 - The First John XXIII was elected Pope to replace Alexander V who had died. John XXIII was more of a statesman and general than a spiritual leader. He was Pope only five years. He was deposed by the Council of Constance and made a cardinal.

1409 - The Council of Pisa, seeking to restore the unity within the Roman Church, deposed both Popes, namely Urban VI (in Rome) and Clement VII (Avignon), and elected a new Pope: Alexander V.

1380 - 1417 - The famous Papal SCHISM: two or three Popes reigning simultaneously and excommunicating each other.

1134 - Clement VI gave official endorsement to the principle of the treasury of the Church.

1311 - 1313 - The 15th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, held under Clement V, at Vienne, France. It enacted decrees on the reformation of the Clergy.

1309 - 1377 - THE GREAT BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY - The popes resided at Avignon for about 70 years.

1299 - Boniface VIII, in his Bull «Unam Sanctam», held that IT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION FOR EVERY human creature TO BE SUBJECT TO THE ROMAN PONTIFF.

1287 - Invention of the scapular by a monk called Simon Stock. All those who would wear it at the moment of death were promised eternal salvation.

1274 - The 14th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under Gregory X, at Lyons. It effected a temporary reunion of the Eastern Church with the Roman Church.

1266 - 1308 - Duns Scotus, a Franciscan scholar, stressed the authority of the Roman Catholic Church as well as the duty to believe what the Church teaches and to conform to what it commands.

1264 - The feast of Corpus Christi (under Urban IV).

1245 - The 13th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, held under Innocent IV, at Lyons. It excommunicated and deposed Emperor Frederick II.

1243 - 1254 - INNOCENT IV. He set up the most absolute formula for the Papal Power in the Middle Age. In fact, he held that Peter and his successors had been invested with the fulness of the power. He asserted that the POPE received from Christ a GENERAL POWER OVER ALL THE EARTH.

1229 - The COUNCIL of TOULOUSE forbade to the laity the possession of copies of the BIBLE. It also systematized and elaborated the INQUISITION.

1227 - the use of bells at mass.

1220 - the adoration of the host.

1215 - The 12th Ecumenical Council held under Innocent III, in St. John Lateran. TRANSUBSTANTIATION and AURICULAR CONFESSION became DOGMAS of the Roman Catholic Church.

1200 - The bread was replaced by the host for communion.

1198 - 1216 - THE CLIMAX OF THE PAPACY under INNOCENT III.
1 - He took the title of VICAR OF JESUS CHRIST and SUCCESSOR of the Prince of the Apostles.
2 - He was the champion of the Papal THEOCRACY, that is, of the temporal and spiritual power being in the hands of the Pope. It is also called the THEORY of the TWO-SWORDS.
3 - He also claimed SUPREMACY in STATE and CHURCH for the Papacy. He held that God had ordained both the Papal and Imperial power, and that the Imprial power derives its dignity and splendour from the Papal one.
4 - He extended the Papal control over the Eastern Catholic Church, on account of the conquest of Constantinople by the Crusaders
5 - He excluded all lay interference in ecclesiastical affairs.

1179 - Pope Alexander III commanded that, in the future, canonization should be only with the authority of the Roman Church. None should be officially enrolled among the saints, without Papal consent.

1179 - The 11th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under Alexander III, in St. John Lateran. It condemned some popular religious movements, such as the Albigenses and the Waldenses. It also proclaimed a crusade against them.

1179 - First signs of the Inquisition: the ecclesiastical power combined with the civil arm to arrest and punish the members of some popular religious movements, such as Petrobrusians, Henricians, Waldenses, Cathari or Albigenses.

1177 - Conflict between Pope Alexander III and Emperor Frederick Barbarossa for supremacy. The Emperor was deposed and the Pope further increased his power over Church and State.

1139 - The 10th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under Pope Innocent III, in St. John Lateran. It upheld infant baptism, clerical celibacy, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and holy orders.

1125 - 1160 - PETER LOMBARD, a great scholar, was the first one to limit the sacraments to SEVEN. Their number was officially fixed at seven by the Council of Florence in 1439.

1123 - The 9th ECUMENICAL COUNCIL held under Pope Callistus II, at Rome, in St. John Lateran.
It abolished the right claimed by lay princes of investiture with ring and crosier to ecclesiastical offices. It condemned simony and clerical concubinage.

1096 - 1141 - Hugo of St. Victor, a scholar, held that a sacrament is the physical medium through which God’s grace operates. He stated that there were 30 sacraments.

1095 - The Council of Clermont did declare deposed all priests, deacons and sub-deacons who were married. Special fees for confirmation, extreme unction and funerals were also prohibited.

1095 - Plenary indulgence promised by Urban II to all those who took part in the First Crusade directed to free the Holy Places from the hands of infidels. Also was promised eternal life to those who lost their physical lives in the enterprise.

1090 - Recitation of the first part of the rosary («Hail, Mary...»). It was an imitation of the rites of Hindus and Mohamedans.

1076 - The beginning of the famous STRUGGLE between the POPE and the EMPEROR for SUPREMACY. (The attempted dethroning by Pope Gregory VII of Henry IV, the mightiest monarch of Western world.)

1076 - The FIRST DOGMA: the INFALLIBILITY of the Church.

1075 - The POPE’S CLAIMS. A document stating in twenty-five affirmations, the position of Pope Gregory VII concerning his conception of the Papal Office. Here are a few statements:
1 - the Roman Church was founded by God.
2 - The Roman Pontiff alone deserves the title «universal».
3 - He alone may use the imperial insignia.
4 - He can depose Emperors.
5 - He is the only man whose feet princes must kiss.
6 - A sentence passed by him cannot be reversed by any one except himself.
7 - He may be judged by no one.
8 - To him should be referred the important cases of every church.
9 - The Roman Church has never erred, not will it err to all eternity.
10 - He who is not at peace with the Roman Church shall not be considered a Catholic.
11 - The Roman Pontiff may absolve subjects from their allegiance to wicked men.

1074 - The ecclesiastical precept of clerical celibacy, under Gregory VII.
(Defense for the Clergy to get married.)

1073 - 1085 - Pope Gregory VII. He appointed some men to be his resident representatives in particular regions and countries, thus ensuring closer supervision from Rome and the enforcement of the Papal edicts. He also enjoyed to be called the Vicar of St. Peter.

1059 - New legislation under Nicholas II to determine that the Pope was to be appointed by the cardinals only.

1059 - The doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION was resumed again for study. It became a dogma in 1215 only.

1048 - 1054 - The creation of Cardinals by Leo IX. He took them from any part of the Catholic Church, regardless of their country. He wanted to have the Pope elected by Clergy and the People.

1048 - 1054 - Difficulties between Leo IX and the Patriarch of Constantinople led to another stage in the separation of the Eastern and Western wings of the Catholic Church.

 

[lincomen]

Papacy and Ecclesiast Tradition Pt. 2

1000 - Pilgrimage to Holy Lands.

993 - Canonization of saints after their death (under John XV).

988 - Celebration of All Souls’ Day and devotion to the souls in purgatory under Odilo, an Abbot of Cluny.

978 - The official doctrine of purgatory.

965 - Baptism of the bells (under John XIV).

963 - Struggle for the Papacy between the Romans and some Western Emperors. It gave ground to many rivals for the Papacy.

962 - SECOND RESTORATION of the Western Empire (also called the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation). It was constituted by the Imperial Coronation of OTTO I by Pope John XII.

910 - The monastery of Cluny was the first one to be attached to the Papacy.

890 - The worship of St. Joseph.

869 - 870 - EIGHTH ECUMENICAL Council summoned by Emperor Basilius Maredo to be held in Constantinople. It affirmed the primacy of the Pope against the Patriarch of Constantinople, Photius.

850 - The use of holy water.

835 - The feast of ALL Saints’ Day (under Gregory IV).

831 - Peculiar view of Radbert, a monk, concerning Eucharist: the doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION. He held that, while the bread and the wine remain unaltered to the senses, the substance of the body and blood of Christ is present in them by a miracle. Such a doctrine was opposed by some scholars, such as Maur, Gottschalk and Ratramnus.

800 - FIRST RESTORATION of the WESTERN EMPIRE (also called the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE of the Frankish Nation) in which there were two heads: the one, CIVIL, the Emperor, and the other, spiritual, the POPE. It was inaugurated by the CORONATION of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III. It established the precedent that the imperial coronation must be by the Pope. It gave him more prestige.

800 - The use on insence made compulsory in the liturgy.

794 - The Council of Frankfort condemned the decision of the Seventh Ecumenical Council concerning the worship of images.

787 - SEVENTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, convoked by Empress Irene, wa held for the most part at Nicaea. It approved and regulated the worship of images and the invocation of the saints.

758 - The practice of private confession to a priest with the accompanying penance was introduced in the West, particularly in the Frankish realms, by the religious orders of the East.

754 - The TEMPORAL POWER of the PAPACY and the Estates of the Western Catholic Church inaugurated by Pepin the Short.

683 - Pope Leo II granted by an Edict of Emperor Constantine IV a complete independence in temporal as well as in ecclesiastical matters.

680 - SIXTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL convened by Emperor Constantine IV in Constantinople.

650 - Feasts in honor of Mary.

642 - The title of SOVEREIGN PONTIFF officially taken by the Patriarch of Rome.

608 - The Pantheon - (a pagan temple built in 27 B.C., by Agrippa) - was donated by Emperor Phocas to Boniface IV who dedicated it to the worship of Mary and martyrs under the name of St. Mary of Martyrs.

607 - The title of universal patriarch granted by Emperor Phocas to Boniface III, bishop of Rome. That was the OFFICIAL BEGINNING of the PAPACY.

606 - The title of universal bishop or patriarch claimed by Boniface III, in Rome.

600 - Latin introduced in the liturgy (in the West).
Beginning of the intercession or invocation of the saints.

593 - The doctrine of Purgatory, already developed by Augustine (354-430), was resumed by Gregory I. It was conceived as being a state, a fire purging people of light sins before final judgment. He held that masses for the souls in purgatory are a help.

590 - 604 - Gregory I regarded the title of ecumenical bishop or patriarch as «an offense to the Laws, to Councils and to the precepts of Christ.»

590 - 604 - Gregory I was the builder of a POLITICO-RELIGIOUS EMPIRE centered in Rome. He laid the foundations for the power which the Church of Rome was to exercise in Western Europe during the coming centuries.

588 - Protest of Pelagius (Patriarch of Rome) against the title of universal bishop assumed by John the faster, Patriarch of Constantinople.

553 - FIFTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, called by Emperor Justinian I in Constantinople.

535 - Processions before Easter.

500 - A special dress (garment) was granted to the Clergy.

494 - The title of «VICAR of Christ» granted by a Roman Synod to the Patriarch of Rome, GELASIUS, regarded as the CHAMPION of the «primacy of St. Peter».

476 - The City of Rome ceased to be the seat of the Imperial Power to become the SEE of the Western Catholic Church.

475 - The Catholic Church and the Roman Empire had become so intimately associated that the impress placed by the State upon the Church was to prove INDELIBLE.

451 - FOURTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL convened by Emperor Marian at Chalcedon. It granted the priority to the Patriarch of Rome, while the second place was given to the Patriarch of Constantinople (which had become the NEW ROME). It was a seed of schism within the bosom of Catholicism.

440 - 461 - Leo I, Patriarch of Rome, held the PRIMACY of St. Peter. He obtained from Emperor Valentinian III an edict commanding all the bishops of Italy and Gaul to obey the Patriarch of Rome, on the ground that he was the successor of Peter. He also extended to subdeacons the rule of clerical celibacy.

431 - THIRD ECUMENICAL Council under Emperor Theodosius II at Ephesus. The Nicene creed was ratified. Any addition to it or substitute for it was prohibited. It approved and supported the doctrine of Cyril of Alexandria stating that Mary was entitled to be called «the Mother of God». That was the OFFICIAL BEGINNING of the marial worship.

416 - The baptism of infants became compulsory.

390 - The practice of public penance, introduced by Hermas, Tertullian, Origen, for the sins committed after baptism, was abolished, in the East, by the Patriarch of Constantinople, but it continued, in the West, up till the 9th century.

381 - SECOND ECUMENICAL Council under Emperor Theodosius at Constantinople. It completed the Nicene creed or profession of faith.

380 - The worship of images (icons), of relics and of the cross.

380 - Edict of Emperor Theodosus I: force was used to compel people to follow the Catholic religion.

375 - 400 - The celebration of the Eucharist was called MASS. Leo I (440-461), Gelasius (492-496) and Gregory I (590-604) greatly contributed in giving to the celebration of the Eucharist the Roman shape it kept for centuries.

354 - 430 - St. Augustine stated that baptism and the Lord’s Supper were necessary to salvation. He also held that, outside of the Catholic Church, there was no salvation.

353 - Synod of Arles: a bishop was derelict of his duty, if he did not stamp out the worship of idols in his diocese.

350 - 375 - The worship of angels and of the saints encouraged by Basil of Caesarea and Gregory of Nazianzus.

330 - The SEAT of the Emperor Constantine transferred from Rome to Constantinople (the New Rome).

325 - The FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL of the CATHOLIC CHURCH summoned and presided over by Emperor Constantine, at Nicaea. It determined a creed or profession of faith for the whole Church. Members of the Catholic Clergy were granted the freedom from all contributions to the State by the Emperor, because he perfectly knew that POLITICAL UNITY was to be achieved through RELIGIOUS UNITY.

320 - 370 - Candles in the churches.

315 - The Sign of the cross.

313 - 337 - A. D., REIGN of the EMPEROR CONSTANTINE AS CIVIL AND RELIGIOUS LEADER of the Roman Empire.
He bore the title of PONTIFEX MAXIMUS, which means SOVEREIGN PONTIFF.
He established the marriage of the Catholic Church with the State.
He also set up in the Catholic Church a HIERARCHY based on that of the Imperial Court, with PATRIARCHS residing at the main cities of the Empire, namely: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.

313 - EDICT of MILAN by Emperor Constantine granting FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

305 - A Synod, held in Elvira, Spain, demanded clerical celibacy.

260 - 268 - The right of association and propriety granted by Emperor Gallienus to the Catholic Church.

252 - The baptism of infants right after their birth recommanded by a Synod of Carthage.

250 - The rise of Monasticism. It was primarily a lay movement

 

[chevyontheriver]

I do. That Scripture means that IF a man is married, he can only be married to one woman (not polygamous), and he cannot be divorced and remarried. It does not say that he has to be married.

And even if it did, Paul is inferior to Jesus, and Jesus said that some men make themselves "eunuchs" for God - giving up all sexual relations. Jesus trumps Paul, so that's that.

And somehow, Paul, If it is true that he ruled that a bishop MUST BE MARRIED, violated his own rule by not being married. And preferring virginity to boot. Major disconnect. Only resolvable by saying that a man must be the husband of no more than one wife.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So Please ALL stop repeating the same anticatholic nonsense! Ill wager another thread will pop up in the next few weeks, with all the same nonsense, even by the same posters.

There is about a thread a month on this particular hoo-ha. And by people who have no memory of how Protestants in the USA called their own ministers 'father'. That is until they could stop doing that and use it as an attack vector against Catholics. But then using it as an attack vector is the most important thing. That's just how it is. No need to understand Scripture deeply. No need to understand the past 200 years of American Protestantism. Just attack. I don't know why I bother with such hopeless threads. Waste of time.

 

[Vicomte13]

I believe there are Catholics that are true Christians. I don't believe I'd stay in a church with such a shameful history of condoning, covering up and denying so many cases of sexual abuse.

Nail. Head. This depravity with children business makes one want to vomit. There is really only one way to fix it. That way results in a completely different set of real problems, but those problems are less offensive.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Take OP's word on it? See my post #44 for what I really said and didn't say. It just may change your mind.

As I said, I had to take the OP's word unless his friend, you, showed up to dispute it. So I won't change my mind on that point . As you have showed up to dispute it, I now have a better picture of what was actually said.

 

[Athanasius377]

While Scripture doesn't support mandated celibacy for Bishops I would say that it doesn't prohibit voluntary celibacy either. Reading this thread made me wonder how many posters in this thread are willing examine whether their own ministers are following the scriptural mandate to be married to only one woman. I find it absolutely scandalous that there are protestant ministers that are divorced and remarried and sometimes several times over! I know of a so-called traditional Anglican Bishop that is twice divorced and remarried. It is well-known secret but no one ever mentions that he is in clear violation of this scriptural mandate.

Also, maybe I missed it but I thought Bishops in the Eastern Church were celibate but only the priests could marry prior to ordination. Are not Eastern Bishops chosen from monks? Maybe one of our Orthodox friends can comment further.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I believe there are Catholics that are true Christians. I don't believe I'd stay in a church with such a shameful history of condoning, covering up and denying so many cases of sexual abuse.

Has your own group been more successful at condoning and covering up and denying their own problems? I'm sure they will deny it. Just saying. Not condoning any abuse, not even in your group. Which of course they would deny.

 

[dqhall]

And somehow, Paul, If it is true that he ruled that a bishop MUST BE MARRIED, violated his own rule by not being married. And preferring virginity to boot. Major disconnect. Only resolvable by saying that a man must be the husband of no more than one wife.

We have Christ's example. Jesus did not marry, but did much for God. He was not a member of the Sanhedrin, nor a member of a wealthy family. Jesus came to serve as God directed him. If you look at Christ's example as a single person or Peter's example as a married person, you would not make marital status a prerequisite for a leadership position.

 

[victoria plum]

I have been challenged/encouraged by my Catholic friend, @Fidelibus to start a thread concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings.

Now before you attack the messenger, please remember, this was not my idea at all but I am glad to accommodate my friend.

I do hope that all who respond can be civil and friendly and most of all BIBLICAL.

#1. Bishops are not married.
So then, the Catholic practice for all of its CLERGY is that they all be celibate. In other words the RCC does not allow its Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests to be married.

But the Bible says just the opposite in 1 Timothy 3:1...……
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...…".

I have been challenged/encouraged by my Catholic friend, @Fidelibus to start a thread concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings.

Now before you attack the messenger, please remember, this was not my idea at all but I am glad to accommodate my friend.

I do hope that all who respond can be civil and friendly and most of all BIBLICAL.

#1. Bishops are not married.
So then, the Catholic practice for all of its CLERGY is that they all be celibate. In other words the RCC does not allow its Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests to be married.

But the Bible says just the opposite in 1 Timothy 3:1...……
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...…".

In plain English, a Bishop MUST be a married man.

Yes, I am aware that many will say that is a warning against "polygamy". Bit that does not answer the question of being married to a woman. A Bishop MUST be married to only one woman.

#2. Calling a man FATHER.

It is the practice of the RCC to refer to its laity as "FATHER". However the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23:9 ...…
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

Now there are probably 30 or more of these kind of examples but just to start, the question must be.........….Why does the RCC obviously reject these two Bible passages?

In plain English, a Bishop MUST be a married man.

Yes, I am aware that many will say that is a warning against "polygamy". Bit that does not answer the question of being married to a woman. A Bishop MUST be married to only one woman.

#2. Calling a man FATHER.

It is the practice of the RCC to refer to its laity as "FATHER". However the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23:9 ...…
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

Now there are probably 30 or more of these kind of examples but just to start, the question must be.........….Why does the RCC obviously reject these two Bible passages?

 

[victoria plum]

Honestly, why are you poking around in Catholic business, merely to criticise? It really is not very kind. Leave Catholics to their own business and pay attention to your own.

 

[Albion]

I may be wrong, feel free to BIBLICALLY show me, but the CONTEXT of the reference is in a spiritual matter, which applies to the Catholic priesthood, in relation to the OP.

It might be...if we are saying that the use of the word conveys a certain doctrine about the ministry.

But as I understood the point in the OP, and as the issue normally is framed by critics of this usage, it is thought wrong merely to use the word for someone other than God, all other doctrinal implications aside.

 

[Theo Book]

I have been challenged/encouraged by my Catholic friend, @Fidelibus to start a thread concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings.

The "PRACTICE" of "Inquisition" is not only not approved of God, but John stated perfectly comprehensible language as he said - "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."[John 16:2-3]

So all the history of killing heretics and Jews by Inquisition, is a total "abomination" to God and His son Jesus Christ. It was NEVER an approved, nay, not even desired practice, yet it was a mainstay of Catholicism's leaders for not years, but centuries.

It began in 452 when upon completion of the Ecumenical council of Niceae of 451, when "Trinity Doctrine" was first declared to be "Orthodox Doctrine" by the bishop of Niceae, the Bishop turned the discipline of the church, (specifically Heretics who disagreed with the doctrine) over to the Emperor for execution.

And God looked upon the works of MEN and demonstrated a judgment upon the Earth which NONE recognized in their religious zeal; I.,E., 1000 years of "Dark Ages" ending in 1452 with the first bible coming off the printing presses to be given to the people instead of to laity.

I sincerely hope no Catholic take this personal, as I was raised Catholic myself, and studied my way out of it as I began to prepare for the priesthood.

I still love the stories I learned in first grade about Jesus' and how he dealt with his problems while he was in first grade. Then, when I was passed to second Grade, amazingly, Jesus also entered second grade with a whole new set of problems, so similar to my problems they could not have been simply co-incidents. (I won't tell you what grade I was in before I figured it out).

To this day, I am grateful for the start Catholicism gave me in my search for God. And to this day my heart goes out to those who simply cannot consider the issues Catholics have with truth and scripture.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I have been challenged/encouraged by my Catholic friend, @Fidelibus to start a thread concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings.

Now before you attack the messenger, please remember, this was not my idea at all but I am glad to accommodate my friend.

I do hope that all who respond can be civil and friendly and most of all BIBLICAL.

#1. Bishops are not married.
So then, the Catholic practice for all of its CLERGY is that they all be celibate. In other words the RCC does not allow its Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests to be married.

But the Bible says just the opposite in 1 Timothy 3:1...……
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...…".

In plain English, a Bishop MUST be a married man.

Yes, I am aware that many will say that is a warning against "polygamy". Bit that does not answer the question of being married to a woman. A Bishop MUST be married to only one woman.

#2. Calling a man FATHER.

It is the practice of the RCC to refer to its laity as "FATHER". However the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23:9 ...…
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

Now there are probably 30 or more of these kind of examples but just to start, the question must be.........….Why does the RCC obviously reject these two Bible passages?

Let’s deal with Call no man father first...
Here’s what the Bible says (Matt 23).

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.

5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others.

8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called master, for you have one master, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat—this means that the Rabbis, those who would teach you and guide you in the way you should go (masters) have set themselves up as though they were you father.

Jesus says they are selfish and self-serving hypocrites and admonishes is to not be like them.

So, don’t take the title of Rabbi/Teacher or Father or Master (guide, instructor, mentor), because your Teacher and Master guide is the Messiah and there is only one Father, in heaven. Greatness comes from being a servant, not a leader, be servants and you will be great.

This is what Jesus is saying. He isn’t saying anything about what titles people should have or what people should be called. He is talking about the heart, the motivations, and the intent of each of us.
Be brothers and sisters instead of holding someone other than God in a place of ultimate esteem and authority.