Non-Biblical Practices done by Catholic believers

[Major1]

I have been challenged/encouraged by my Catholic friend, @Fidelibus to start a thread concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings.

Now before you attack the messenger, please remember, this was not my idea at all but I am glad to accommodate my friend.

I do hope that all who respond can be civil and friendly and most of all BIBLICAL.

#1. Bishops are not married.
So then, the Catholic practice for all of its CLERGY is that they all be celibate. In other words the RCC does not allow its Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests to be married.

But the Bible says just the opposite in 1 Timothy 3:1...……
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...…".

In plain English, a Bishop MUST be a married man.

Yes, I am aware that many will say that is a warning against "polygamy". Bit that does not answer the question of being married to a woman. A Bishop MUST be married to only one woman.

#2. Calling a man FATHER.

It is the practice of the RCC to refer to its laity as "FATHER". However the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23:9 ...…
"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

Now there are probably 30 or more of these kind of examples but just to start, the question must be.........….Why does the RCC obviously reject these two Bible passages?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Oh, something else. As others may already know, the Catholic Church does not abide by scripture as her sole authority. If a given doctrine can be found in sacred scripture, that's great. But a doctrine's truth does not depend upon it being adduced from sacred scripture as per Catholic belief.

While Protestants are welcome to agree or disagree with this approach, the fact of it remains.

 

[Phil 1:21]

#3. Veneration of body parts of saints (bone fragments and such).

#4. Praying to saints.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Oh, something else. As others may already know, the Catholic Church does not abide by scripture as her sole authority. If a given doctrine can be found in sacred scripture, that's great. But a doctrine's truth does not depend upon it being adduced from sacred scripture as per Catholic belief.

While Protestants are welcome to agree or disagree with this approach, the fact of it remains.

That is absolutely correct with respect to Catholic beliefs. Hopefully we stay on topic and don't dive into the rabbit hole of debating the validity of that belief.

 

[Albion]

Number 2 on that list is just a misunderstanding; and numerous verses from Scripture show that other people on Earth are called Father and properly so. The OP is overly literal on this point.

 

[Albion]

Oh, something else. As others may already know, the Catholic Church does not abide by scripture as her sole authority. If a given doctrine can be found in sacred scripture, that's great. But a doctrine's truth does not depend upon it being adduced from sacred scripture as per Catholic belief.

While Protestants are welcome to agree or disagree with this approach, the fact of it remains.

But the question of the thread asks "concerning the practices of Catholic believers which are not found in the Bible. He is convinced that there are no such happenings."

It is immaterial, so far as this discussion goes, whether the Catholic Church intends to be guided by Scripture or something else.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Oh, something else. As others may already know, the Catholic Church does not abide by scripture as her sole authority. If a given doctrine can be found in sacred scripture, that's great. But a doctrine's truth does not depend upon it being adduced from sacred scripture as per Catholic belief.

While Protestants are welcome to agree or disagree with this approach, the fact of it remains.

True, but I think I am correct by saying the point of the OP was that an acquaintance insisted that everything done by the Catholic church was biblically sourced. I do not think that the Catholic Church has ever proposed that every practice they engage in is directly from the Bible. So the friend, if I am correct, may be somewhat ill informed.

 

[thecolorsblend]

True, but I think I am correct by saying the point of the OP was that an acquaintance insisted that everything done by the Catholic church was biblically sourced. I do not think that the Catholic Church has ever proposed that every practice they engage in is directly from the Bible. So the friend, if I am correct, may be somewhat ill informed.

I don't know the exact wording of what was said. There are many Catholic doctrines which can be found in sacred scripture, even several which people steadfastly refuse to believe are what the Church believes they are.

But ALL doctrines? I'd be rather surprised if the OP's friend actually said that.

EDIT- As a general thing, it's worth asking what exactly scripture is supposed to say with regard to doctrine. Is the threshold for belief that a given a doctrine be affirmed sacred scripture? Is the threshold for belief that given doctrine be not forbidden by sacred scripture? What exactly is the bar here?

 

[Albion]

Incidentally also, the OP speaks of the challenge as being about PRACTICES, not doctrines.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I don't know the exact wording of what was said. There are many Catholic doctrines which can be found in sacred scripture, even several which people steadfastly refuse to believe are what the Church believes they are.

But ALL doctrines? I'd be rather surprised if the OP's friend actually said that.

EDIT- As a general thing, it's worth asking what exactly scripture is supposed to say with regard to doctrine. Is the threshold for belief that a given a doctrine be affirmed sacred scripture? Is the threshold for belief that given doctrine be not forbidden by sacred scripture? What exactly is the bar here?

Good questions. As for what the friend actually said, I can only take the OP's word on that unless the friend decides to show up and dispute it.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Incidentally also, the OP speaks of the challenge as being about PRACTICES, not doctrines.

True, they are different things.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I Cor 7

8 Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do. 9 But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry—it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

...

25 Now, concerning what you wrote about unmarried people: I do not have a command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is worthy of trust.

26 Considering the present distress, I think it is better for a man to stay as he is. 27 Do you have a wife? Then don't try to get rid of her. Are you unmarried? Then don't look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you haven't committed a sin; and if an unmarried woman marries, she hasn't committed a sin. But I would rather spare you the everyday troubles that married people will have.

29 What I mean, my friends, is this: there is not much time left, and from now on married people should live as though they were not married; 30 those who weep, as though they were not sad; those who laugh, as though they were not happy; those who buy, as though they did not own what they bought; 31 those who deal in material goods, as though they were not fully occupied with them. For this world, as it is now, will not last much longer.

32 I would like you to be free from worry. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord's work, because he is trying to please the Lord. 33 But a married man concerns himself with worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife; 34 and so he is pulled in two directions. An unmarried woman or a virgin concerns herself with the Lord's work, because she wants to be dedicated both in body and spirit; but a married woman concerns herself with worldly matters, because she wants to please her husband.

35 I am saying this because I want to help you. I am not trying to put restrictions on you. Instead, I want you to do what is right and proper, and to give yourselves completely to the Lord's service without any reservation.

An unmarried person is permitted from the above text to hold a Church Office.

The word Father Jesus used had a special meaning. Paul was a spiritual Father, as Catholics believe their Priests are.

"
Matthew 23:9

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• Matthew 23:9

Call no man your father (patera mh kaleshte mwn). Jesus meant the full sense of this noble word for our heavenly Father. "Abba was not commonly a mode of address to a living person, but a title of honour for Rabbis and great men of the past" (McNeile). In Gethsemane Jesus said: "Abba, Father" ( Mark 14:36 ). Certainly the ascription of "Father" to pope and priest seems out of harmony with what Jesus here says. He should not be understood to be condemning the title to one's real earthly father. Jesus often leaves the exceptions to be supplied.""

Ephesians 6:2 “Respect your father and mother” is the first commandment that has a promise added:

Romans 4:18
Abraham believed and hoped, even when there was no reason for hoping, and so became “the father of many nations.” Just as the scripture says, “Your descendants will be as many as the stars.”

1 Corinthians 4:15
For even if you have ten thousand guardians in your Christian life, you have only one father. For in your life in union with Christ Jesus I have become your father by bringing the Good News to you.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don't know the exact wording of what was said. There are many Catholic doctrines which can be found in sacred scripture, even several which people steadfastly refuse to believe are what the Church believes they are.

But ALL doctrines? I'd be rather surprised if the OP's friend actually said that.

EDIT- As a general thing, it's worth asking what exactly scripture is supposed to say with regard to doctrine. Is the threshold for belief that a given a doctrine be affirmed sacred scripture? Is the threshold for belief that given doctrine be not forbidden by sacred scripture? What exactly is the bar here?

It took me a few seconds to find what I trust is the challenge that prompted this thread. If so, the challenge was this:

"Start a thread on what you believe are Catholic teachings that are not explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, and I'd be more than happy to go over them with you one by one, or how many others you think there are."

I suspect the OP was being graceful in restricting the discussion to practices instead of the much wider category of "teachings." I hope Fidelibus keeps his word and engages in discussion on this topic. Apologetics is interesting.

 

[John Bowen]

The 1.3 billion those who call themselves Catholics out of tradition , or guilt really need at this time to question the church if it really is in alignment with the teachings of Jesus Christ .No one can serve two masters Matt 6:24 It would be better for him (or institution ) if a milestone were hung around his neck and thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble Luke 17:2 2/3 of the world lives in poverty less than 2 dollars a day millions of children dying from starvation a lot of them Catholic while the church has assets of 200 billion dollars . Some Clergy live in multi million dollar mansions like kings , have art works , gold everything . " Feed my sheep ! " John 21:17

 

[Major1]

I think you mean clergy there.

Not really true. Eastern Catholic clergy are allowed to be married. And even in the Roman Rite, Anglican Use priests who were married prior to their conversion can still be ordained as Catholic priests.

The relevance of that to the modern world is shaky at best. The recruiting pool from which the Early Church had to work was made up mostly of married men. Pointing to that model as being exemplary of anything is intellectually dishonest.

Further, it ignores the reasons why clerical celibacy ever came about in the first place.

It says no such thing.

YOU said concerning that the Bible says a Bishop must be a married man....………..
"It says no such thing."

Can you then explain 1 Timothy 3:1-5...…(KJV)
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?"

The original Greek literally is translated as “one-woman man.” In other words, a bishop must be absolutely loyal to the woman he is married to.

The NIV makes it even clearer.

1 Timothy 3:1-5 ...….
"Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his WIFE, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?

So then, do you still say that the Bible does not say that a Bishop should be a married man?

 

[Major1]

It took me a few seconds to find what I trust is the challenge that prompted this thread. If so, the challenge was this:

"Start a thread on what you believe are Catholic teachings that are not explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, and I'd be more than happy to go over them with you one by one, or how many others you think there are."

I suspect the OP was being graceful in restricting the discussion to practices instead of the much wider category of "teachings." I hope Fidelibus keeps his word and engages in discussion on this topic. Apologetics is interesting.

Agreed.

Maybe "Teaching" could be another thread when this one is stopped.

 

[Major1]

I Cor 7

8 Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do. 9 But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry—it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

...

25 Now, concerning what you wrote about unmarried people: I do not have a command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is worthy of trust.

26 Considering the present distress, I think it is better for a man to stay as he is. 27 Do you have a wife? Then don't try to get rid of her. Are you unmarried? Then don't look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you haven't committed a sin; and if an unmarried woman marries, she hasn't committed a sin. But I would rather spare you the everyday troubles that married people will have.

29 What I mean, my friends, is this: there is not much time left, and from now on married people should live as though they were not married; 30 those who weep, as though they were not sad; those who laugh, as though they were not happy; those who buy, as though they did not own what they bought; 31 those who deal in material goods, as though they were not fully occupied with them. For this world, as it is now, will not last much longer.

32 I would like you to be free from worry. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord's work, because he is trying to please the Lord. 33 But a married man concerns himself with worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife; 34 and so he is pulled in two directions. An unmarried woman or a virgin concerns herself with the Lord's work, because she wants to be dedicated both in body and spirit; but a married woman concerns herself with worldly matters, because she wants to please her husband.

35 I am saying this because I want to help you. I am not trying to put restrictions on you. Instead, I want you to do what is right and proper, and to give yourselves completely to the Lord's service without any reservation.

An unmarried person is permitted from the above text to hold a Church Office.

The word Father Jesus used had a special meaning. Paul was a spiritual Father, as Catholics believe their Priests are.

"
Matthew 23:9

• /
  
• Our Library /
  
• Commentaries /
  
• Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament /
• Matthew /
  
• Matthew 23:9

Call no man your father (patera mh kaleshte mwn). Jesus meant the full sense of this noble word for our heavenly Father. "Abba was not commonly a mode of address to a living person, but a title of honour for Rabbis and great men of the past" (McNeile). In Gethsemane Jesus said: "Abba, Father" ( Mark 14:36 ). Certainly the ascription of "Father" to pope and priest seems out of harmony with what Jesus here says. He should not be understood to be condemning the title to one's real earthly father. Jesus often leaves the exceptions to be supplied.""

Ephesians 6:2 “Respect your father and mother” is the first commandment that has a promise added:

Romans 4:18
Abraham believed and hoped, even when there was no reason for hoping, and so became “the father of many nations.” Just as the scripture says, “Your descendants will be as many as the stars.”

1 Corinthians 4:15
For even if you have ten thousand guardians in your Christian life, you have only one father. For in your life in union with Christ Jesus I have become your father by bringing the Good News to you.

1 Timothy 3:2...…….
"Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the bishop is to be above reproach, FAITHFUL TO HIS WIFE".

If the Bishop has to be faithful to his WIFE, means that he must then be married.
There is no other possible conclusion.

Matthew 23:9 (ESV)………..
"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

Isn't the root of calling men in a position of religious authority "FATHER" found in pride and the desire for attention and notoriety more than anything else?????

Clearly when the whole 23rd chapter is read, CONTEXT demands that in Jesus' estimation and economy no one but God is as worthy to be called "FATHER" but our heavenly Father.

The greatest teachers, mentors, and leaders will not draw attention to themselves but will be satisfied being humble servants in the employ of the King of kings. From their point of view, if God chooses to exalt them at some point in their ministry, fine; if not, then that's fine, too. After all, we all are at best, servants of the King (see 1 Corinthians 3:5; 4:1).

 

[Major1]

True, but I think I am correct by saying the point of the OP was that an acquaintance insisted that everything done by the Catholic church was biblically sourced. I do not think that the Catholic Church has ever proposed that every practice they engage in is directly from the Bible. So the friend, if I am correct, may be somewhat ill informed.

You are very correct. The challenge was done by that exact thought in the thread....
"Questions for adherents of the Bible alone" comment #106.

 

[Major1]

Good questions. As for what the friend actually said, I can only take the OP's word on that unless the friend decides to show up and dispute it.

The thread "Questions for adherents of the Bible only"...….comment #106.

Fidelibus stated...……..
"If you would like to discuss any Catholic teaching that IS NOT IN THE BIBLE such as Purgatory or the Rosary, or calling men FATHER or the inability of the laity to marry, please ask me and I will be glad to give you the Bible response.
Start a thread on what you believe are Catholic teachings that are not explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, and I'd be more than happy to go over them with you one by one, or how many others you think there are."


HE said "teachings" but I said "Practices".

Personally I have no problem with "teachings".

 

[Major1]

I don't know the exact wording of what was said. There are many Catholic doctrines which can be found in sacred scripture, even several which people steadfastly refuse to believe are what the Church believes they are.

But ALL doctrines? I'd be rather surprised if the OP's friend actually said that.

EDIT- As a general thing, it's worth asking what exactly scripture is supposed to say with regard to doctrine. Is the threshold for belief that a given a doctrine be affirmed sacred scripture? Is the threshold for belief that given doctrine be not forbidden by sacred scripture? What exactly is the bar here?

The word "DOCTRINES" was not used. YOU just interjected that word. "PRACTICES" is what I said.

"Teachings" is the word Fidelibus used.