No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

[1stcenturylady]

I would take your last sentence in the Reformation quote as being what we should be doing after salvation.

What? Murdering and committing adultery a thousand times a day? Not! That's part of the unbelievable quote that is still believed by thousands, but not any apostle.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is that the matrix one?

Yes. She thinks she owns the house and that we are just figments of her imagination!

 

[Saint Steven]

What? Murdering and committing adultery a thousand times a day? Not! That's part of the unbelievable quote that is still believed by thousands, but not any apostle.

Right. I meant NOT be doing.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Right. I meant NOT be doing.

Yes, Christians do not do those things. But the quote still stood during the Reformation, and some still teach it today.

 

[wonderkins]

That is true at the beginning when converted, but that rigidity of doctrine is what I do not agree with, as it became lop-sided in the Reformation into dead faith. "Faith without works is dead." The following two verses seem to contradict one another, but the truth lies in the complexity of faith - it is perfected by works. You can't just choose which verse to believe. We have to dig a little deeper and believe them both. The lop-sidedness of justification by faith alone is what this thread is discussing.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Here is what happens when you only believe one of the verses (Romans 4).

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Do you believe this quote from the Reformation is truth, or falsehood? Is it based on just the first verse, or the second also? Does it produce faith that is alive in Christ, or dead in sin.

Nevermind. I found it. Martin Luther. From what I can tell from a small amount of reading is this quote is from a partial letter with no context.

I have never known anyone, especially in the reformed world that I've been exposed to, who would think we can purposely sin because we're saved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nevermind. I found it. Martin Luther. From what I can tell from a small amount of reading is this quote is from a partial letter with no context.

I have never known anyone, especially in the reformed world that I've been exposed to, who would think we can purposely sin because we're saved.

The Puritans were very adamant in saying that anyone who purposely sinned after making a Christian profession was an unconverted hypocrite!

 

[Radagast]

Nevermind. I found it. Martin Luther. From what I can tell from a small amount of reading is this quote is from a partial letter with no context.

From a letter to Melanchthon in 1521. Like many such quotes, it's been edited to sound worse. here's a more complete quote (from here):

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2 Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

Ryan Reeves summarises it like this: "Lastly, the last line of the paragraph is a real gem, and gives us the final clue as to Luther’s pastoral concern for brother Melanchthon: you’re a sinner, man, get used to it."

 

[wonderkins]

From a letter to Melanchthon in 1521. Like many such quotes, it's been edited to sound worse. here's a more complete quote (from here):

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2 Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

Ryan Reeves summarises it like this: "Lastly, the last line of the paragraph is a real gem, and gives us the final clue as to Luther’s pastoral concern for brother Melanchthon: you’re a sinner, man, get used to it."

Thanks radagast. It really puts the quote in perspective when we have some of the context of it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Nevermind. I found it. Martin Luther. From what I can tell from a small amount of reading is this quote is from a partial letter with no context.

I have never known anyone, especially in the reformed world that I've been exposed to, who would think we can purposely sin because we're saved.

Well I have. I always wondered where they got their doctrine from. Now I know.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks radagast. It really puts the quote in perspective when we have some of the context of it.

It doesn't make those statements I presented any less accurate. I took what was pertinent to the point. He meant exactly what he said. Nothing he said before or after changed the meaning of the quote. If you can find any virtue into saying we are powerless over sin, when Christ died to take away our sin, and in Him there IS NO SIN, then I'm astounded. There are many who have itching ears and want to hear this justification for their lack of power over sin. But in the last day, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity."

 

[LightLoveHope]

My question based on believing in Jesus, is why do so many believers seem to freeze at the cross, appear emotionally to know they are saved, yet nothing seems to resolve or work out.

My answer is simple. Open hearts. We are emotionally built to defend our hurts, our position, our understanding, our foundations so we are not rocked by the next guy to suggest something.

Jesus calls us to open our hearts, and let Him sort out, straighten, resolve our emotional conflicts and difficulties until our outside expression of love is the same as the expression of love within.

It is this belief, from the heart, with love, knowing who Jesus is, that we are accepted, forgiven and we have worked this through our whole being which is the gospel, entering the Kingdom, turning from death to life. But Paul declares it is a walk, a process, a continuing in fellowship with God in which this living faith is rewarded with eternal life.

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:7-8

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Gal 6:9

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good
Romans 12:21

To believe Jesus is to walk the walk, and talk the talk from the heart. All I have met who oppose love as the central key, deny the need to resolve their hearts, and always mention the heart is desperately wicked and can never be resolved. This appears to be literal unbelief in the power of the cross.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, Christians do not do those things. But the quote still stood during the Reformation, and some still teach it today.

I don't think it was meant that way. And frankly, who would take it seriously? Did anyone that we know of follow that "advice"? (I mean, other than the Manson cult)

 

[tampasteve]

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[1stcenturylady]

I don't think it was meant that way. And frankly, who would take it seriously? Did anyone that we know of follow that "advice"? (I mean, other than the Manson cult)

Possibly a reformation of the Reformation has transpired since then, but it doesn't take much of what is left to spoil the message of victory in Christ from freedom from sin, to freedom to sin to itching ears. If not even murdering and adultery can separate us from God, then why not murder and commit adultery?

Up until I started posting on Christian forums I was ignorant of what some of these older Protestant denominations even taught having never been to any of them. But when I started posting on the Spirit giving us power over sin, did these contrary doctrines come out of the woodwork with a vengeance. The major doctrine still around and defended is this from the middle of the "quote" - "We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign." How many times do I see posters say that we "will always sin in this life"/"we will always be in the flesh until given new bodies," or defend "OSAS" while willfully sinning, or that "sin is sin" which would then include murder and adultery down to unknown trespasses unwittingly committed? It all comes from this quote's mentality and lack of knowledge of the power of the Spirit given to us, whereas, the Scriptures tell an entirely different story. I'll show you. I'm going to make a new post with 1 John 3:9, and let's see how many disagree or specifically come back with 1 John 1:8 as a rebuttal (which is mankind before Christ and the power He gives us), or some other defense of powerlessness. BTW, 1 John 1:7 is a Christian showing the power.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Possibly a reformation of the Reformation has transpired since then, but it doesn't take much of what is left to spoil the message of victory in Christ from freedom from sin, to freedom to sin to itching ears. If not even murdering and adultery can separate us from God, then why not murder and commit adultery?

Up until I started posting on Christian forums I was ignorant of what some of these older Protestant denominations even taught having never been to any of them. But when I started posting on the Spirit giving us power over sin, did these contrary doctrines come out of the woodwork with a vengeance. The major doctrine still around and defended is this from the middle of the "quote" - "We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign." How many times do I see posters say that we "will always sin in this life"/"we will always be in the flesh until given new bodies," or defend "OSAS" while willfully sinning, or that "sin is sin" which would then include murder and adultery down to unknown trespasses unwittingly committed? It all comes from this quote's mentality and lack of knowledge of the power of the Spirit given to us, whereas, the Scriptures tell an entirely different story. I'll show you. I'm going to make a new post with 1 John 3:9, and let's see how many disagree or specifically come back with 1 John 1:8 as a rebuttal (which is mankind before Christ and the power He gives us), or some other defense of powerlessness. BTW, 1 John 1:7 is a Christian showing the power.

I asked a simple question, can we for any length of time be pure, holy, cleansed.
If it is true we can be cleansed, made holy, then the issue is staying in the place not being defeated continually. It appears people admit we can walk rightly for short periods. But they then say not 24/7 so it is pointless.
The goal is not to walk like Jesus but to give up.
They believe we can never be free from original sin, and are continually sinful.
If one talks about love and having an open cleansed heart, they will quote the heart is desperately wicked and impossible to cleanse.

Salvation in this theology is the magic ticket that faith gives you, no matter your future.

I agree that without an open heart and truly being cleansed and sorted, walking in love is impossible. But I would also suggest how can one know the Lord unless one knows it from ones heart. As Jesus says

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matthew 18:35

 

[1stcenturylady]

can we for any length of time be pure, holy, cleansed.

The question should be directed at the apostles. What did they say?

 

[Saint Steven]

The question should be directed at the apostles. What did they say?

Romans 7:19
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Romans 7:19
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

Steven! Read it again in context this time. It is talking about someone under the law - like the OT Jews. Without the Holy Spirit and still controlled by your old nature, even if you know the law in your mind, sin was still reigning in your nature causing havoc. Without the Holy Spirit it is a struggle to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law, but with the Spirit, He does all the work, providing you with a new nature not in the old carnal flesh.

 

[wonderkins]

Steven! Read it again in context this time. It is talking about someone under the law - like the OT Jews. Without the Holy Spirit and still controlled by your old nature, even if you know the law in your mind, sin was still reigning in your nature causing havoc. Without the Holy Spirit it is a struggle to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law, but with the Spirit, He does all the work, providing you with a new nature not in the old carnal flesh.

You're wrong. Paul is saying that the law shows us our sins. Sin is already there. The law just brought it into the light.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You're wrong. Paul is saying that the law shows us our sins. Sin is already there. The law just brought it into the light.

Yes, the law had a purpose to show us our sin, but why are we not under the law then if we keep sinning? It is because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death.