No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

[wonderkins]

Yes, the law had a purpose to show us our sin, but why are we not under the law then if we keep sinning? It is because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death.

Because Jesus fulfilled the law.

But centurylady, with your second sentence here, I don't know of anyone who would disagree. I don't feel there's an argument to be had there.

It seems that the issue is whether or not we sin after salvation. Correct?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Because Jesus fulfilled the law.

But centurylady, with your second sentence here, I don't know of anyone who would disagree. I don't feel there's an argument to be had there.

It seems that the issue is whether or not we sin after salvation. Correct?

Actually, it is the opposite. The question is, is it possible for a Christian NOT to sin. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

 

[wonderkins]

OK. Well I don't think it's possible to not sin. I think we all prove that on a daily basis. I think that's why Paul calls himself the chief of sinners. I also think that's why Jesus continually intercedes for us.

We are free from condemnation according to romans 8, but that doesn't mean we don't commit sins.

 

[LightLoveHope]

The question should be directed at the apostles. What did they say?

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:7

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

The obvious truth is they realised God fulfils His promise.
Paul says the by loving our neighbours we fulfil the law.

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:10

It is clear Paul regard walking in the Spirit as walking in the will of God.
There is always a battle between the passions of life and the life in the Spirit.
But that is self sacrifice, putting our praise on the altar.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is always a battle between the passions of life and the life in the Spirit.

I liked your post, but disagree with just this portion. The only battle would be without the Spirit, but then you wouldn't belong to Christ. Then you have to try to keep the laws of God with a weak carnal nature hell bent on sinning. The Spirit makes us dead to sin - that is the desire to sin is gone. So no "battle." We then must walk in the Spirit. Jesus has given us this gift of the Spirit when we repented of sin. Unfortunately, there are many who want to believe in Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord. Even the demons "believe" and tremble.

Galatians 5:16-21 could be interpreted as a battle for the Christian, but I don't see it that way. We are either of the Spirit or of the flesh. They can't abide one another. Some believe not inheriting the Kingdom of God as merely a loss of rewards, to force it to fit in with belief in OSAS. I take not inheriting the Kingdom of God as being thrown into the lake of fire. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Revelation 21:8

 

[LightLoveHope]

I liked your post, but disagree with just this portion. The only battle would be without the Spirit, but then you wouldn't belong to Christ. Then you have to try to keep the laws of God with a weak carnal nature hell bent on sinning. The Spirit makes us dead to sin - that is the desire to sin is gone. So no "battle." We then must walk in the Spirit. Jesus has given us this gift of the Spirit when we repented of sin. Unfortunately, there are many who want to believe in Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord. Even the demons "believe" and tremble.

Galatians 5:16-21 could be interpreted as a battle for the Christian, but I don't see it that way. We are either of the Spirit or of the flesh. They can't abide one another. Some believe not inheriting the Kingdom of God as merely a loss of rewards, to force it to fit in with belief in OSAS. I take not inheriting the Kingdom of God as being thrown into the lake of fire. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Revelation 21:8

I understand your theory about us being dead to sin.
I believe this is our destination, as in, by reinforcing the ways of the Spirit through obedience the passions and ways of life in the world go into the background.

But we are still physical creatures who have our weaknesses and need to choose the way of the spirit daily.

I have seen very spiritual men and women of God, discovering part of their life, attitudes they have turning them aside from the Lord. It is the sorting through ones emotional foundations and loyalties that often put the true foundations in ones life.

This is why the building of ones emotional life in the Lord is so important to seeing the promises and victory come to pass. It is also very hard because what we are is defined by our emotional reactions to things and how we then choose to proceed.

In my discussions with different people, there is a problem with associating how we feel with who we are. Listening to our internal discussions of what makes us react in one and then choose to bring something else in to our lives to bring balance is part of our walk.

Peter was a prime example of being impetious, claiming a great deal before he had worked out the real price. "I would die for you." "No, you will deny me 3 times in the next 8 hours or so."
Once we begin to see our emotional language in the context of the Spirit, I think then true victory can be achieved.

A lot of the people who talk miracles, prophecy, proof of God moving above things of the heart, have often been those who condemn me for talking about love and the heart. If the heart is not resolved, opened and the hurts healed, loneliness and cynicism resolved, the excuses for damaging others still remains which often leads to sin and self indulgence. I have seen church leaders in our local assembly be brought down through these very problems by adultery and pride.

 

[Danthemailman]

In the Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

From my experience in the past with people who cry foul and argue that believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations of the Greek word pisteuo, such people end up having an agenda to re-define pisteuo in order to accommodate teaching salvation by works.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven! Read it again in context this time. It is talking about someone under the law - like the OT Jews. Without the Holy Spirit and still controlled by your old nature, even if you know the law in your mind, sin was still reigning in your nature causing havoc. Without the Holy Spirit it is a struggle to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law, but with the Spirit, He does all the work, providing you with a new nature not in the old carnal flesh.

You can call me Steve.
That's a fine theory, but notice that there are four "I"s in this verse alone. To whom do they refer? Is he really talking about "someone under the law - like the OT Jews", or someone else. (like himself)

Romans 7:19
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's the whole paragraph for near context. It's an "I" full.
In fact with twenty it's an "I" full tower. lol

It seems to me that he is talking about himself.
And the more of the chapter you read, the more there is.
Dozens of references to himself and his unending struggle.

Romans 7:14-20
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I understand your theory about us being dead to sin.
I believe this is our destination, as in, by reinforcing the ways of the Spirit through obedience the passions and ways of life in the world go into the background.

But we are still physical creatures who have our weaknesses and need to choose the way of the spirit daily.

I have seen very spiritual men and women of God, discovering part of their life, attitudes they have turning them aside from the Lord. It is the sorting through ones emotional foundations and loyalties that often put the true foundations in ones life.

This is why the building of ones emotional life in the Lord is so important to seeing the promises and victory come to pass. It is also very hard because what we are is defined by our emotional reactions to things and how we then choose to proceed.

In my discussions with different people, there is a problem with associating how we feel with who we are. Listening to our internal discussions of what makes us react in one and then choose to bring something else in to our lives to bring balance is part of our walk.

Peter was a prime example of being impetious, claiming a great deal before he had worked out the real price. "I would die for you." "No, you will deny me 3 times in the next 8 hours or so."
Once we begin to see our emotional language in the context of the Spirit, I think then true victory can be achieved.

A lot of the people who talk miracles, prophecy, proof of God moving above things of the heart, have often been those who condemn me for talking about love and the heart. If the heart is not resolved, opened and the hurts healed, loneliness and cynicism resolved, the excuses for damaging others still remains which often leads to sin and self indulgence. I have seen church leaders in our local assembly be brought down through these very problems by adultery and pride.

I understand. Romans 6 gives a statement of fact - we ARE dead to sin. But then Paul further tells us to "reckon" ourselves dead to sin. It doesn't change the fact, only shows us how to live it out.

Our command once receiving the Holy Spirit is to not quench the Spirit. It is then, and only then, we can continue to love others as Christ loved us, and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law, and thereby not fall into sin.

The difference between the apostles and some of the posters and even church fathers as in "the quote" is the concept of what is "fact." Apostle: "you ARE dead to sin" vs. "you WILL ALWAYS sin." Apostle: "I say this so you WILL NOT sin" vs. "you WILL ALWAYS sin." Apostle: Victory vs. Defeat. Our choice of words is powerful for life or death.

When a person gets it into their head to look at others failures rather than what is Truth/Fact, unbelief in the mighty power of God sets in, and we forget the Spirit. Then not only our righteousness becomes filthy rags, rather than led of God, we don't have the strength to walk in deadness to sin, just common willpower which WILL ALWAYS fail us. We get it into our heads "I will always sin" and then fulfill our own curse. There will be people who disappoint us, but God never will. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

It is all about the Spirit in us, something that Peter didn't have at the time he denied Christ, only partial bestowments for ministry from Himself previously when Jesus would send them out to heal the sick and cast out demons. It wasn't until in John 20:21-22 after Christ had died and been resurrected victorious did He breathe on them to receive the Holy Spirit. At that time they went from head knowledge to spirit knowledge and were born again of the Spirit. (Many in the Church today still only have head knowledge, never having repented of their sin to become dead to sin and born of the Spirit. We can't look to them for truth.) It is interesting that before, during the time he walked with Christ while Christ was still training him, Peter could say something only from God, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," and then turn around and say something from his own will and old nature, and Jesus would say "get behind Me, Satan". Only after receiving the Spirit/being born of the Spirit, did they never falter, even unto death for they lived the FACT.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's a fine theory, but notice that there are four "I"s in this verse alone. To whom do they refer? Is he really talking about "someone under the law - like the OT Jews", or someone else. (like himself)

It is a Semitic writing style. Read verse 9 of Romans 7. He used the word, "I" then too. Was Paul with Moses when the law came to mankind? Mankind is the "I". Paul is talking dispensationally. But, Paul, when Saul, used to be a Pharisee and could easily recall his struggle, BEFORE Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is a Semitic writing style. Read verse 9 of Romans 7. He used the word, "I" then too. Was Paul with Moses when the law came to mankind? Mankind is the "I". Paul is talking dispensationally. But, Paul, when Saul, used to be a Pharisee and could easily recall his struggle, BEFORE Christ.

And as we would expect, it is written in the past tense. This is not the case for the other scripture in question. (Romans 7:14-20)

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

 

[1stcenturylady]

And as we would expect, it is written in the past tense. This is not the case for the other scripture in question. (Romans 7:14-20)

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

I'm not following you that it is written in "past tense" when it is clearly present tense, but only as a Semitic writing style, only showing that those without Christ such as the Jews who live under the law is present tense also - they need Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not following you that it is written in "past tense" when it is clearly present tense, but only as a Semitic writing style, only showing that those without Christ such as the Jews who live under the law is present tense also - they need Christ.

"Once I was alive ..." = past tense (was)
"... sin sprang to life..." = past tense (sprang)
"... and I died." = past tense (died)

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

 

[1stcenturylady]

"Once I was alive ..." = past tense (was)
"... sin sprang to life..." = past tense (sprang)
"... and I died." = past tense (died)

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Yes, Abraham was not under the law, nor anyone before Moses. They were alive without the law as Cain was not struck dead after killing Abel. But when the law came (through Moses) then I couldn't get away with lawlessness anymore, and anyone committing murder then was killed. Even those who died in the flood were not condemned because they sinned, but because they were spawns of fallen angels (another study in itself).

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, Abraham was not under the law, nor anyone before Moses. They were alive without the law as Cain was not struck dead after killing Abel. But when the law came (through Moses) then I couldn't get away with lawlessness anymore, and anyone committing murder then was killed. Even those who died in the flood were not condemned because they sinned, but because they were spawns of fallen angels (another study in itself).

The law was given through Moses to the Israelites alone. It was not for anyone else.
Why did God destroy every living person outside the ark if they were not condemned?
Spawn of fallen angels, everyone? (not)

 

[1stcenturylady]

The law was given through Moses to the Israelites alone. It was not for anyone else.
Why did God destroy every living person outside the ark if they were not condemned?
Spawn of fallen angels, everyone? (not)

As I said, that is a study on its own.

 

[Saint Steven]

As I said, that is a study on its own.

I can tell by the trailer that your movie doesn't follow the book.
But I'll give it two stars for cinematography and costuming.

The law was given through Moses to the Israelites alone. It was not for anyone else.

Why did God destroy every living person outside the ark if they were not condemned?

 

[watchman 2]

Yes.

The English word "faith" comes from the Latin word "fides", not the Greek word "pistis".

So you're wrong right out of the starting block.

So the

Just because an error has been around for a long time and is now old, doesn't make it true. Some of what is "new" is merely undoing error and going back to the original teaching of the apostles which is really old, but got twisted. That is what is being attempted in this thread.

We don't need to discover any new truths , we need to rediscover the old truths .

1st Lady , I'm putting together a detailed thread that will have all the facts about saving Faith . If some agree I'll share how such saving Faith is applied , resulting in recieving the Spirit of Christ .

This will cause alot of heated discussion , I was thinking about waiting until after Christmas .

 

[watchman 2]

Rom 8:9 is one of those foundational Scriptures that cover everyone , whether God's word and His promises belong to them or not yet .

The reason I'm submitting Rom 8:9 is we all start the Salvation journey or process in the same state of being , we don't have the Spirit of Christ , so Christ ,His word , and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet .

If we could all take this journey together I'll try to explain and answer any questions as we go .

I've given the correct definition of pisteuo as per the Strongs and Vines . I'll begin this process at the very start of our Salvation journey .

Here at the beginning , we are all in the same states of being .
1) we are only being drawn or called to Christ by the Father . Nobody comes to the Father except the Father draws them .

So to repeat , the Salvation journey starts with the calling of the Father to Christ .
We respond to the call by a mental turning of our mind ( repentance ) simply mentally turning from our way to His way in our thoughts .
Then , we take our first step of " Faith , faithing " pistis , pisteuo towards Christ .

What are we doing when we take that first step of Faith towards Christ ?

Three days and not one answer to the question I asked here ?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I can tell by the trailer that your movie doesn't follow the book.
But I'll give it two stars for cinematography and costuming.

The law was given through Moses to the Israelites alone. It was not for anyone else.

Why did God destroy every living person outside the ark if they were not condemned?

I believe they were Nephilim. It is also why God wanted the children of Israel to kill every man, woman, and child of the Nephilim nations, as it happened again.