No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

watchman 2

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Again, sadly, you are speaking a different language and I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding you because what you are describing is foreign to my experience in existing.

Who or what do I "serve"? We are all "surrendering our lives to something or someone"?

These are two very different things to my mind.

One does not "serve" natural forces. Those things simply ARE. One must obey them, but only in the literal sense: one cannot fly off the ground no matter how much one wants to, and no matter how "necessary" it is, even to survive at a given moment. So, the most important constraints on life - the natural laws - which are the Hand of God - are not "served" at all. They simply ARE. Do I "serve" biology when I breathe? No. Breathing is vital to life. Were I to voluntarily stop breathing, to "refuse to serve" my body's need for air, I could do that for a minute or two. If I were really stubborn I could do that until I passed out. But then I would involuntarily start to breathe again the instant I was unconscious. So in these most urgent things of all, there is no real "service" or "surrendering", because there isn't any choice in the matter.

Only when one speaks of other human beings and their various forms of power: legal, economic, influential - only there does "service" make the greatest service. One can choose to follow other men and do as they say, or not. People do not generally want to voluntarily obey other men at all. They do it out of constraint, fear and necessity. Effectively this is what Christians say of their God as well: you must obey him OR ELSE he will burn you in agony forever in the fires of Hell. This is the same thing as: you must obey the cop or he will shoot you, but on a grander scale: compelled obedience under the threat of punishment. In general, people resent people who hold a gun to their face to compel them to do things.

Now, the question that this opens up is: if I obey somebody because he has a gun to my face, have I really surrendered to him at all? I am complying with his commands because I do not wish to suffer loss at his hands, but that is the extent of my "surrender": outward compliance, in the immediate moment. If you point a gun at me (or threaten to) to compel me to do something, then you are my enemy, I hate you, and I wish your destruction.

If you're asking me what I do with my time in this world, most of it is spent working, to earn money so that I can support my family and eat. The second largest chunk of time is spent sleeping - because God compels that. Such time as I have to myself is mostly spent doing what you and I are doing here: talking about things.

Would I rather be doing other things with my time? Yep. Can't. The exigencies of the world demand that I do what I must do in order to keep me and my dependents alive, housed, clothed and fed.

You might consider what we do here on the Internet - talking about God - to be a meaningful act of "faithing". I see it is entertainment, and mostly vain. So when you say that "Faithing towards God is only one specific thing..." and then go on and speak of some sort of "surrender", I cannot take those words and apply them to anything real that I see in my existence, or in the existences of anybody else that I see. So I don't know what they mean.

I would say that I'm pretty sure you have something very specific in mind when you say those words, and it's a fair bet that I don't do, or think, whatever it is that those words specifically mean to you, which would mean, following your argument, that I am not "saved" - from WHAT I have never really been able to discern.

Our minds don't think alike, and I doubt the twain shall ever meet.

Vines Greek dictionarys definition of pisteuo, the word used to describe how we specifically start, maintain, and complete a relationship with Christ here on Earth resulting in recieving His Spirit .

" A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "

These are not my words, nor my mandated path. But I bear witness to it.
 
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Vicomte13

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Vines Greek dictionarys definition of pisteuo, the word used to describe how we specifically start, maintain, and complete a relationship with Christ here on Earth resulting in recieving His Spirit .

" A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "

These are not my words, nor my mandated path. But I bear witness to it.

Yep, I can see that.

I read the words, and have no concept of what a "personal surrender to Him" means or would look like.

So, maybe what I am doing already is that, and maybe it isn't. I don't know, because I don't understand what those words are saying. "Surrender"...HOW?

Anyway, I guess we're just going back and forth in a fog at this point, so we should probably leave it be.
 
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watchman 2

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Yep, I can see that.

I read the words, and have no concept of what a "personal surrender to Him" means or would look like.

So, maybe what I am doing already is that, and maybe it isn't. I don't know, because I don't understand what those words are saying. "Surrender"...HOW?

Anyway, I guess we're just going back and forth in a fog at this point, so we should probably leave it be.

You've shared alot, but I still have no idea how your relationship with God has started or is being maintained .
Simply and specifically.
 
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Vicomte13

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You've shared alot, but I still have no idea how your relationship with God has started or is being maintained .
Simply and specifically.

Everybody's relationship with God begins by God creating each of us individually.
My personal belief in God, as an It, began when It saved my life in a major miracle.
My belief in God as a He, began when He grabbed my face and my arm and spoke to me, and through various conversations with Him. I talk with him.

That's it. That's my relationship, simply and specifically, in English words that I understand.
 
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watchman 2

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Everybody's relationship with God begins by God creating each of us individually.
My personal belief in God, as an It, began when It saved my life in a major miracle.
My belief in God as a He, began when He grabbed my face and my arm and spoke to me, and through various conversations with Him. I talk with him.

That's it. That's my relationship, simply and specifically, in English words that I understand.

But Salvation is by Grace through Faith , right?

Faith is in its specific application is pisteuo, Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe."

Vines : pisteuo is, " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

Is there any evidence of these definitions in your conversations with God?
 
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Vicomte13

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But Salvation is by Grace through Faith , right?

Faith is in its specific application is pisteuo, Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe."

Vines : pisteuo is, " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

Is there any evidence of these definitions in your conversations with God?

Well, I would say that "Salvation" means not failing final judgment and being cast into the Lake of Fire, nor failing final judgment and being left outside of the walls of the City of God, to wail in outer darkness. Salvation means passing final judgment, at the very end of the world, and being allowed to walk into the City of God to live with God for the eons. That is Salvation.

"Grace" is the anglicization of the Latin word "gracia", which is the Latinization of the Greek word "charis", which means "gift". So, passing final judgment is a gift of God.

Faith is "Fides" trust. Given that the things that God says are mortal sins that earn the lake of fire are committed by everybody once they reach later childhood and adulthood, nobody will pass final judgment unless God lets them off the hook, is a lenient judge, forgives their sins.

I trust that the method Jesus revealed to be forgiven my sins actually will work, that he wasn't lying or being tricksy, and that if I just do what he said, that he will keep faith with me and do what he promised, which is to forgive as I forgive, and judge me by the lenient and merciful standards by which I judge others.

That's what I think those words mean. And that's how I apply them in my life.
 
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watchman 2

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Well, I would say that "Salvation" means not failing final judgment and being cast into the Lake of Fire, nor failing final judgment and being left outside of the walls of the City of God, to wail in outer darkness. Salvation means passing final judgment, at the very end of the world, and being allowed to walk into the City of God to live with God for the eons. That is Salvation.

"Grace" is the anglicization of the Latin word "gracia", which is the Latinization of the Greek word "charis", which means "gift". So, passing final judgment is a gift of God.

Faith is "Fides" trust. Given that the things that God says are mortal sins that earn the lake of fire are committed by everybody once they reach later childhood and adulthood, nobody will pass final judgment unless God lets them off the hook, is a lenient judge, forgives their sins.

I trust that the method Jesus revealed to be forgiven my sins actually will work, that he wasn't lying or being tricksy, and that if I just do what he said, that he will keep faith with me and do what he promised, which is to forgive as I forgive, and judge me by the lenient and merciful standards by which I judge others.

That's what I think those words mean. And that's how I apply them in my life.

What sticks out in your reply is you said, " If you just do what He said,?

Could you expand on that ?
 
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