No scripture contradicts rapture teaching

[rockytopva]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

The bible says that Christ comes as a thief and no man knows the day and the hour. If I give me estimations on the end-time I would have to go with Isaac Newton....

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

So I would have....

Rapture - Christmas day, 2053
Return of Christ - Christmas day, 2060

But... The bible says...

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

So though I may have an elaborate date prediction going on, yet I must say it is my best bet. Christ Jesus told me to be ready, for as such an hour as I think not the Son of Man cometh, which scripture also leads me to believe that it is pre-trib. It could happen today! And if I am mistaken about today it may come tomorrow! If I am ready for it I have nothing to loose and have walked obedient to scripture.

What is really sad is when people build elaborate end time predictions, and then hold those who do not agree with them as heretics. If Christ says the Father only knows of that day, then we must consider all date prediction and elaborate date predictions, including mine, stabs in the dark!

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

Pre-trib teaching is a product of the gentile mind. We do our best with what we have learned, but even after that there is no way of nailing exact dates, which the Father has put in his own power. So it pays to be ready on a daily basis, just in case, which they probably are, our date predictions are in error.

 

[havevisions]

I'm more inclined to be mid or one year after mid tribulation. I never held to the pre- trib belief.

 

[Jezmeyah]

It would be somewhat useful to be familiar with the Jewish moeds, which the Bible events are fulfilled upon.

Jesus was crucified on the Pasach-Passover. The Church as a body of believers was born on Shavuot-Pentecost. The next will be Yom Teruah-the day of Trumpets, or Rosh HaShana. This is recognizable when Paul wrote of "the last trump". The blowing of the shofar is done by a person with practice and skill.. to sound a series of particular notes .. and lung power to extend the final, final note for as long as can possibly be achieved.

I've listened to examples on youtube, hearing the entire thing can be quite moving when realizing that it's the event(s) that the apostle Paul refers to in 1 thes.4:13-18.
Then there is Sukkot-Tabernacles-the Second Coming of Jesus and the Millennium.

The scripture that is oft quoted concerning when Jesus will come, "No man knows the day or hour." is misunderstood by the gentile Christians due to not being familiar with the Jewish theology of the moeds. Not that I am so "learn-ned" (obviously) but I have sought out such places that give the information for Christians.

The phrase does not mean to imply that the coming of Jesus to rapture the body of Christ will be at some random unknown time.

The phrase that Jesus used, "No man knows the day or hour" concerning His Coming, is a Jewish idium connected with the Rosh HaShana moed. It speaks of the tradition of two witnesses who were responsible to watch the lunar cycle which indicated precisely when to begin the two day feast of Trumpets. At the first moment of the appropriate sliver of light showing on the moon, that signaled it's beginning. That, was their way of knowing the day and hour.

In knowing of the moeds and the seasons of their yearly celebrations. It is known of when Jesus will come. But, the precise year is still not known to anyone. Therefore, the calculations of a certain year, month, and day that people make (like Harold Camping did) are no more than completely wrong speculations.

 

[John Hyperspace]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

No scripture contradicts that Jesus lives on Alpha Centauri, either. Just because scripture doesn't contradict, doesn't make it true. For something to be true, it has to first actually be taught. That is where a "pre-trib rapture" completely fails the test. Only people who "read into the text" something that is not explicitly taught by the text, will ever "see" a pre-trib rapture in the scripture.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Rosalyn]

Hi all,
I am new to the site and would like to share my own view on the rapture. Below is a blog on the rapture, I wrote on my own blog site for discussion.
God Bless
Ros
With the rise of end times eschatology and Christian interest in the rapture, I thought I would add my own views on the matter and hopefully help other Christians get the clarity they need to understand the timing of the catching up in the air that most Christians expect to happen at some point in time.

My own knowledge of the rapture event occurred during my teenage years and that was a long time ago. I was sixteen and had no understanding or teaching on the rapture. I had never read or heard about the rapture, so when I dreamed of the event, I realized that the Holy Spirit was showing me an event that was going to take place in the future.

In my dream, I was outside of a large stadium, watching many people flocking into the stadium to hear the words of a very enigmatic man. There was great excitement in the air and people all around me were rushing head long into the stadium. I had a feeling of absolute dread about the scene and began calling out to anyone that would hear, not to go in to the stadium as I knew in my inner being that they were all rushing towards great evil.

While watching, the scene unfold, I suddenly became aware of another event about to take place. I looked up and realized that, there was a great sign occurring in the sky, then I and many other people around me were being caught up into the air to meet Jesus. I felt a great surge of excitement and fear as I did not know why, I was being caught up into the air to meet the Lord. The dream ended and I woke up amazed and astounded by the dream and wandered what it meant.

It was many years later when I began to study the bible more in-depth that I realized that my dream was of the rapture and the man of lawlessness and the timing of the rapture occurred during the reign of this wicked man.

I have read many rapture dreams that other people have had and have discussed and debated the timing of the rapture at length over a great number of years. I know from my own dream that the rapture does not occur before the tribulation times, as the man of lawlessness was at work beguiling many people when the rapture event took place.

The Lord showed me the timing of the rapture, well before I ever read or heard of this event. I had also never heard of the anti-Christ, so both parts of the dream were revelation to me. I have been fortunate to have been shown these events well in advance of the time by the Lord, and it has helped me to understand that God’s timing is perfect and to rest in that knowledge. I had other very profound encounters with Jesus that I will write about, but not in this blog as I want to focus on the timing of the rapture scripturally.

Matthew Chapter 24, verses 23-25

Jesus state’s “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.”

The scripture above was a direct confirmation to me that in my rapture dream, I was being shown a scene of great deception being committed by the Anti-Christ.

The next scene in my dream was to look up into the sky

Matthew chapter 24, verse 29

Jesus state’s “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken”

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The timing of my dream was as per the gospel of Matthew, deception, signs in the sky and the catching up into the air. The matter was simple to me and shown clearly, so I was quite amazed when, I began to read all kinds of wonderful theories about when the rapture would take place.

For those of you, who are still unsure of the timing of the catching up of the body of Christ, the scriptures below will give you a clear time line of when the rapture event is likely to occur.

The man of lawlessness must first be revealed. The Apostle Paul is very clear on the timing of the rapture.

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2, verses 2-4

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day, will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Paul’s teachings back up exactly what Jesus said in the same chronological order. First, the man of lawlessness is revealed, the great rebellion, signs in the heavens, then our being gathered together with him.

The catching up into the air coincides with the coming of the Lord. Paul states in;

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, verses 15-17.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Again, the Apostle Paul clearly indicates the timing of the catching up into the air of the body of Christ.

· The coming of the Lord precedes the rapture.

· With a loud command and with the sound of the trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord.

The catching up into the air occurs at the same time as the sign of the coming of the Lord and the sign of the coming of the Lord precedes the beginning of the wrath of the lamb.

Revelation Chapter 6 verses 14-17;

The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”



Let’s summarize the correct sequence of order that occurs before the rapture takes place.

· Nations rising against nations.

· Earthquakes and famines occurring in various places.

· And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

· The man of lawlessness no longer restrained and is actively deceiving the world, showing great signs and wonders.

· False christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

· and we will be hated by all nations for being Christians who testify in the name of Jesus.

· The great rebellion takes place. The falling away of many believers.

· And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

· So, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

· For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

· And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

· Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

· Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

· And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (The rapture).

Another very important factor to be considered is, that we are not subject to the wrath of God, or the Lambs great wrath upon the earth. There is a window of time that occurs between the sixth seal and the wrath of the lamb of God. In this window of time, the 144,000 Israelites will be sealed and the rapture event will have taken place.

Revelation Chapter 7, verses 9, 13-14.

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Again, we see in the book of Revelation that the catching up of the saints occurs during the great tribulation time, not beforehand! And not at the end of the age as some teach. Bible prophecy is very clear in its timing of the catching up into the air and being united with our Lord and Savior. It is during the great tribulation time.

Now let’s get even closer to the timing of the rapture by looking at the two witnesses. The two witnesses will be sent to stand upon the temple mount in Israel and will witness for a set time. When they have finished their testimony, the beast will kill them. Another symbolic name for the beast is the abomination that causes desolation, spoken about in the book of Daniel and spoken of by Jesus.



Revelation Chapter 11, verse 3.

And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Roughly three years in our current calendar is 1095 days, then we are left with a further 165 days. Converting to months, we are looking at a time period of 3 years and 5.5 months.

So, we know that during this time the two witnesses are prophesying and causing a lot of mayhem around the earth. Anyone trying to kill them will be killed themselves. At the end of the period of 1260 days the beast or abomination, whatever you want to call him will kill the two witnesses;

Revelation Chapter 11, verse 7.

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them.

Now let’s go back to Matthew Chapter 24, verse 15.

So, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).

This will be the most intense time on earth for Christians and marks the beginning of the wrath of the Lamb and his judgements upon the earth.

Now to conclude, I have highlighted the times and the seasons and when all the signs are taken together, we know that the generation of people living in this time will not all pass away before the coming of the Lord.

As to the day or the hour of the Lords return, no one knows for a good reason. We are told by Jesus to watch and be alert, so that we are not caught off guard by what’s coming ahead of us and to prepare our hearts for the coming of the Lord.

The final scripture, I am addressing is Revelation Chapter 3, verse 10;

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

I have heard numerous debates on this verse of scripture and the verse being related to the rapture. I cannot say exactly how the Lord Jesus is going to keep those people he chooses from the hour of trial as he does not specify how he will do it.

We know nothing is impossible with God and nothing is impossible with our Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah, so whoever these fortunate believers are, we can only wait and see what happens when the time comes.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[GeorgeJ]

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
.............
So it pays to be ready on a daily basis, just in case, which they probably are, our date predictions are in error.

So with this knowledge WHY are you even wasting your time predicting it?

I can think of other things much more worthwhile that you could be wasting your time with............such as collecting belly button lint. At least that would produce some results!

 

[ewq1938]

No scripture contradicts pre-trib rapture teaching

It only takes two verses to prove that pre-trib is a false doctrine.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.

 

[rockytopva]

So with this knowledge WHY are you even wasting your time predicting it?

I can think of other things much more worthwhile that you could be wasting your time with............such as collecting belly button lint. At least that would produce some results!

I was brought up pre-trib in a big Baptist denomination up in Michigan before coming to Virginia. My pastor use to take us to conferences and it was amazing to see the people. The men looked like gentleman and the woman looked like ladies. Very clean and well dressed. It would seem to me that the ladies in their pretty dresses looked like the angels from heaven.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

Nowadays the people no longer look like the angels from heaven, almost the other way around. There is also very little genuine purity among the people, And I feel that this is because of the lack of imminent rapture teaching.

I myself believe that Isaac Newton's 2060 AD Christ return date is closest and that we have a few decades left here on planet earth. I must worry though, that without imminent rapture teaching, that people are really going loose their purity in the time frame and take on the properties of demonic spirits if they are not careful.

 

[sdowney717]

'Rapture' is definitely post trib as all the scriptures attest.
Jesus returns but He does not return multiple times.
When Jesus comes, He separates the wicked from the justified, that is what your reading when two are in one place and one is taken away.

Luke 17:27-37King James Version (KJV)
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Eagles are prey birds, so those taken go to destruction.

Of the same John says here
Matthew 3:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

So the wicked are taken away, and the righteous remain with the LORD when He returns. They are even caught up into the air to be with Him. (rapture), on His returning to rule and reign on the earth with His saints.
Note verse 10 about reigning on the earth.

Revelation 5:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm