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New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    when i devoured the word, it was clear, by sheer grace (as nothing is received by a man unless ABBA grants it from heaven)
    that Yhvh would restore Israel (as is happening , again clearly).

    it seems that other schools don't care - there's other agendas to protect, for whatever reason, wittingly or not.

    hope springs eternal though - Yahshua said to His ecclesia "if you will" or "if you are willing" (again, to those seeking Yhvh)
    that Yhvh would teach them the truth about everything. and so Yhvh does.

    however, Yahshua also said "...but you would not..." to some that He had just said He desired to gather them under His Wings.

    so, "you are willing" or "you are not willing" seems to make all the difference in those Yhvh is teaching.

    Yhvh doesn't care what all the different denominations / schools/ religions think or do or say - I mean He doesn't change His Word or His Way for them.
     
  2. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Rather than having God "show" you something (which sounds a bit subjective) you might really sink into the NT doctrinal chapters and ask: given what the church is, is there any need for a state of israel to be brought back into existence? What would be the purpose? Obviously there is a modern state of Israel, but I don't know that it is anything to do with prophecy. It has a lot to do with what Judaism thinks is the destiny of Israel which is not the same as the NT. So, are we going to run to programs? Is God going to? Has he been running 2 all along? That's what the issue of 2P2P is. I will move the intro to 2P2P to the top again for you.
     
  3. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    So, you are claiming that the Lord will multiply men to every single genetic seed of the house of Israel? What does that even mean? You sound desperate, Biblewriter. This is the LXX:

    "and I will multiply men upon you, even all the house of Israel to the end: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the desolate land shall be built upon." -- Eze 36:10 LXX


    Of course it has, Biblewriter. It is parabolic language. You do realize that the host of heaven stands to the right and the left of the Lord's throne, don't you?

    "And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left." -- 1Kin 22:19

    Once you understand that verse, understanding the other "powers of heaven" is much less difficult. For example, this occurred when the Medes overthrew the Chaldeans (Babylon):

    "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." -- Isa 13:13 KJV

    LOL! .

    Have you ever read passages such as these, "Biblewriter"?

    "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -- Ps 69:28

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Rev 13:8

    .

    But what does it all mean, Biblewriter? And how do these fellows fit into the picture?

    "And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the Lord shall be in the midst thereof. It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray." -- Eze 48:11

    The Levites went astray 2700 years ago, Biblewriter, and there have been no Levites for 2000 years? You must think the Lord has a very long memory. One would think that if He was not going to forgive someone, it would be Paul, who was conspiring to murder the early Christians.
    .

    If I am denying the scripture, Biblewriter, I certainly want to know how. The last think I want to do is deny the Lord. Would you please post my statements on the Sons of Zadok and explain how I denied the scripture? I would really appreciate it.

    :)
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014
  4. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    That is baloney, Biblewriter. Christ inherited everything. What part of heir of all things do you not understand?

    "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2

    And what part of these verses do you not understand?

    "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:29

    "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." -- Gal 4:30

    I don't understand why you don't understand, Biblewriter.
    .

    There will be no earthly kingdom, Biblewriter. There is not a single verse in the New Covenant that states Christ will ever step foot on the earth again. To the contrary, he clearly stated his kingdom is not of this world; and He said the true worshippers of Him worship Him in the Spirit, not in any particular place.

    Your so-called "literal" interpretation of parabolic prophesies proves nothing except that you do not understand the scriptures.

    :)
    .
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    BW would have done better if he had traced this battle: Col 2:15, Eph 4:8-10, I Cor 15:55-57.

    However, re: not of this world. Is this location? I don't think so. It is a statement of kind. It is not seen the usual way; it does not operate like a national kingdom.
     
  6. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Yes, Jesus is indeed the heir of all things. But having made the earth, He has authority to give it to whomsoever He will. (Jeremiah 27:5) and He has promised a well defined piece of real estate to the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

    The prophecies that you call "parabolic" were not couched in language that even approaches parabolism. They were stated in plain, simple language, and they mean exactly what they say.

    It is serious false doctrine to claim that an Old Testament prophecy is not reliable unless it is repeated in the New Testament. It was the same Holy Spirit that inspired all of it, both Old And New.

    Nothing in the Old Testament is abrogated unless the New Testament specifically abrogated it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  7. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Bogus argument BW; you're just protecting 2P2P. There is a reason why the apostles quoted the OT the way they did, and you never spend time on that. You only spend time shoring up your treatment of the OT, and disproportionately. If something never shows in the NT, and "Jesus explained to them his sufferings and the glories that would follow" from the OT, we have enough of picture, that we don't have to take what you say seriously or what people thought 100 years after the DofJ when it all looked different.

    What really rattles you is to be told that you don't have the sound or pulse or passion of the apostles. You don't.
     
  8. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

    --

    The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

    But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
     
  9. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Note that Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There is no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

    Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

    John 18:36 means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

    Note that John 4:21-24 wasn't contradicting that Christians could worship God in spirit and truth in the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, even after Jesus' sacrificial death for our sins and his resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). Instead, John 4:21-24 meant that under the New Covenant, up until Jesus' 2nd coming, people wouldn't be required to go to a temple building in Jerusalem to worship God like they had been required to do at least 3 times a year under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Deuteronomy 16:16; 2 Chronicles 8:12-16). Only after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3-4), during his millennial reign (Zechariah 14:9, Revelation 20:4-6), will people be required to go once a year to worship the returned Jesus in a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21).
     
  10. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Note that the land will not be only for some physical descendants. For if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

    But you are right to affirm that God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). For even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), the earthly Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).
     
  11. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    We have been over and over this, Biblewriter; but I will repost for the benefit of everyone else. The land was a conditional promise. The most important condition was for Israel to drive the existing inhabitants out of the land so they would not be tempted to adopt any of their pagan rituals. Read these very carefully:

    "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you." -- Lev 18:26-28

    "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." -- Num 33:51-53

    "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." -- Num 33:55-56

    And what had the Lord thought to do unto those nations? He planned to destroy them . . .

    "And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." -- Deu 8:19-20

    Until the time they crossed over Jordan they were warned to be faithful:

    "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God . . . it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." -- Deu 28:58, 63

    "In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it." -- Deu 30:16-18

    All those conditions and warnings were given to Israel before they ever stepped foot on the land. The so-called "unconditional land covenant" pushed by dispensationalists is a myth, and a dangerous one for those who expect land they do not deserve. Only the meek shall inherit the earth; and that is a common theme in the scriptures. I am surprised you missed it, Biblewriter:

    "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." -- Ps 37:11

    "Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still, When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah." -- Ps 76:8-9

    "For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation." -- Ps 149:4

    "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." -- Isa 11:4

    "The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." -- Isa 29:19

    "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" -- Isa 61:1-2

    "Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger." -- Zep 2:3

    "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." -- Matt 5:5

    "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." -- Matt 11:29

    "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass." -- Matt 21:5

    If you know any meek Jews, tell them confidently that they will inherit the earth along with the meek Gentiles.

    .
    What is serious is pretending you understand prophesies, and falsely teaching men so.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    BW, your "specificness" doctrine is your problem. I can read things in I Cor 15 that are from passages about the destiny but Paul says they are about the victory over death. He didn't say "specifically" that he was shifting anything to Christ; he just did it. You have to be a bit intuitive to get it.

    You read the Bible like it is a tax code or a science manual. It is not and it was not by people who think that way or could have. There is none of your nitpicking exactness about how the quote things etc. For ex., the fallen tent of David being raised is the Gentiles coming to Christ.

    The synoptics were in oral form for 2 years, then more and more material was written. Through times of invasion, rebellion, famine, siege, etc.
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Sadly, yes, we have been over this again and again. And like you, I am posting for the others because I already know you will not listen.

    What Rev20 refuses to admit is that, although Israel's original possession of the land was indeed conditional, the promised return is not conditional.

    The promised return is not couched in words such as "if," but in words such as "when" or "until."

    The original possession of the land was lost due to their stubborn rebellion against the God they had promised to serve and the law they had promised to keep. But even as this most severe judgment for their continual rebellion was being prophesied, their eventual return was prophesied. And that return was prophesied in terms that were unquestionable not fulfilled in the return from Babylon after seventy years.

    A typical example of this can be found in Ezekiel 20, which begins with a total condemnation of the nation for their sins, and a pronouncement that they would be cast out of the land. But then we read:

    " 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
    'I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' " (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

    There has never been a time when the Lord gathered this rebellious people from all the countries where they had been scattered and dealt with them face to face, purging out all the rebels from among them. So we know this prophecy speaks of a time that is still in the future.

    But then the Holy Spirit went on, saying:
    " 'As for you, O house of Israel,' thus says the Lord GOD: 'Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel,' says the Lord GOD, 'there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel, says the Lord GOD."
    (Ezekiel 20:39-44)

    So, even while prophesying their utter destruction because of their sins, the Lord himself promised a time when they would be brought back and blessed.

    Now Rev20 and many others want to pretend that prophecies such as this were fulfilled in the return of a very small remnant from Babylon. But many of these prophecies were couched in language that has unquestionable never been fulfilled, such as Ezekiel 36:10, where a specific piece of real estate, the "mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" (Ezekiel 36:4) is promised that it would again be ihabited by "all the house of Israel, even all of it." And then this same piece of real estate is promised that what was coming would be "better" "than in your beginnings." (Ezekiel 36:11)

    And then, to this promise is added another detail that no one can even pretend was ever fulfilled. For it says "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because they say to you, "You devour men and bereave your nation of children," therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,' says the Lord GOD. 'Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore," says the Lord GOD.' "
    (Ezekiel 36:13-15)

    This passage shows that this promised return will take place under the New Covenant, not under the Old Covenant.

    And there are two reasons that this cannot speak of the return from Babylon. The first one is that the New Covenant was not established until a very long time after that return. So this cannot refer to that time. And the second reason is that after the return from Babylon, the people again stumbled and were again cast out of the land, there is no way to even pretend that this prophecy has already been fulfilled.

    Now Rev20 and his allies want to say that all the prophecies are conditioned upon obedience. But this very prophecy goes on to explain how this will be accomplished. For we read:

    "I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.' "
    (Ezekiel 36:24-31)

    Again there is no way to even pretend that the land ever had the borders explicitly defined in Ezekiel 47:17-20:

    "This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side. On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side. The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South. The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side."

    Nor is there any way to even pretend that the land was ever divided among the twelve tribes in the way that is laid out in Ezekiel 48.

    These are just a few of the many examples that can be given.
     
  14. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    This is a great subject to demonstrate some of the misconceptions many Christians have been plagued with by those who ignore the straightforward historical books of the Bible. All Israel did return to its land after the Babylonian captivity under the decree of Cyrus; and Ezra and Nehemiah have documented it for us:

    "And now for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage." -- Ezra 9:8

    "Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? O Lord God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this." -- Ezra 9:14-15

    "And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire." -- Neh 1:3

    "Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations: But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there." -- Neh 1:8-9

    "So the priests, and the Levites, and the porters, and the singers, and some of the people, and the Nethinims, and all Israel, dwelt in their cities; and when the seventh month came, the children of Israel were in their cities." -- Neh 7:73

    The regathering actual began prior to the Babylonian captivity under King Hezekiah. The small remnant of Israel that escaped captivity by the Assyrians rejoined with Judah, at Hezekiah's request:

    "So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria." -- 2Chr 30:6

    Those from Israel who rejoined with Judah are mentioned in 2nd Chronicles 30:18, 25-26. Of course, those were eventually carried away into Babylon along with the tribes of Judah, but the regathering had already begun.
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    Biblewriter, being blind to the fact that Ezekiel is loaded with parables, cannot see that Eze 20 has already been fulfilled. Ezekiel even implied he was speaking in parables in that very chapter (vs.49); but it goes ignored by those who have been led to believe they can "literally" interpret the prophecies (more appropriately identified as "selective literalism" since they never interpret a "future" horse as a real horse; but as something modern, like a car.) :)

    Moses foretold all of this: the captivity; the return and restoration; the ultimate destruction of the nation; their divorce from God, and their permanent scattering. He also foretold the blessings of the faithful remnant: those Ezekiel speaks of in verses 39-44: the ones who did not rebel.

    The truth is that all Israel did return from captivity, and the so-called "lost tribes" is a myth.

    But the recovery took time: about 600 years, or so. The first recovery began under the decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1-3,) which fulfilled this prophecy by Ezekiel:

    "Then shalt thou say to them, Thus saith the Lord; behold, I will take the tribe of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel that belong to him, and I will add them to the tribe of Juda, and they shall become one rod in the hand of Juda." (Eze 37:19 LXX)

    The returning northern tribes rejoined with Judah under Zerubbabel of the house of David. That was the day all Israel came to be known as "Jews":

    "In the year B.C. 538 the exiles turned their backs on Babylon. Daniel remained behind. His heart was with them, but he felt that for their sakes he must still abide in the king's court, and await his death in the land where he had spent his life. After four or five months of toilsome journeying across 800 miles of desert, the pilgrims reached at length the shapeless ruins of the holy city. The day of their arrival was the day of Israel's resurrection; on this day the name Jew was born." [William Fairweather, "From the Exile to the Advent." T & T Clark, 1895, pp.35-36]

    "The name of Judah after the return from captivity was, as we have seen, the general name given to all the returned exiles, whether they belonged to the tribe of Judah or to the remnants of the other ten tribes." [Charles H H Wright, "Zechariah and His Prophecies." Hodder & Stoughton, 1879, Zech 12:3-6, p.374]

    "So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is taken from the tribe of Judah, which came first to these places, and thence both they and the country gained that appellation." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book xi.5.7, p.596]

    It is important to understand that God promised only that a remnant would return--a very small one, in fact:

    "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." -- Isa 1:9

    And Isaiah made it abundantly clear in this verse that he was speaking of the 10 northern tribes as part of the remnant:

    "For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt." -- Isa 10:22-24

    And more returned over the centuries, but not all. Therefore, there was a second recovery by Christ and the disciples that was the prophesied by Isaiah and Ezekiel:

    "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea." -- Isa 11:10-11

    "For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day." -- Eze 34:11-12

    This was the fulfillment:

    "But [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 15:24

    "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 10:5-6

    All twelve tribes were known to the Lord--he knew his sheep and they knew Him (John 10:14.) James also knew them; and if you read James carefully you will realize that he knew them well:

    "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." -- Jas 1:1

    And all twelve tribes were serving God in the days of Paul:

    "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews." -- Acts 26:6-7

    The faithful remnant that were allowed to return from Babylon became known as the "Elect" in the days of Christ. They were the "all Israel" Paul wrote of; the ones that God did not cast away; the ones he foreknew; the ones he predestinated to serve Christ:

    "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying," -- Rom 11:2 KJV

    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Rom 8:28-30 KJV

    They were also prophesied by Joel:

    "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." -- Joel 2:32 KJV

    They were the chosen remnant, and the elect:

    "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." -- Rom 11:5 KJV

    They were the ones Peter was writing to:

    "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1Pet 1:1-2 KJV

    "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9

    That chosen generation fulfilled a promise made to Israel in the days of Moses; but like all of God's promises to Israel, they were given on the condition on obedience:

    "And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

    The covenantbreakers received no inheritance, but were cast away (Rom 1:28-32; 11:2.) The remainder--the remnant--were blessed with the promises (Gal 3:29,) the priesthood (1 Pet 2:9,) and some even with the oracles of God:

    "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." -- Rom 3:1-2

    You have just read some of those oracles, from Peter, John, James, and Paul. But this is most important: Jesus was sent to bless Israel, first, before any Gentile:

    "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." -- Acts 3:25-26 KJV

    He could not have blessed them if they were not known to Him.

    Those were the called and chosen generation. The rest of Abraham's natural seed--those cast away, and the Gentiles, have to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, as Joel stated above in verse 2:32.

    :)
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The truth is that it is utter nonsense to even pretend that the few Israelites that actually returned to the land were absolutely all of "the house of Israel," as clearly stated in Ezekiel 36:10.

    And Ezekiel 20:33-38 clearly shows how the very small remnant that will be blessed in the end can constitute absolutely all of the house of Israel. For this passage explicitly says that the Lord will "purge the rebels from among you," adding that these rebels will be brought "out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 20:38)

    In the past, Rev20 has pretended that this purging took place by only a few returning to the land. But that is not what the text says. It says the ones who will be purged from among them will be brought "out of the country where they dwell." And nothing even resembling this has ever happened.

    So now Rev20 is resorting to claiming that this is just a parable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  16. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    Nothing you write, nor anything Ezekiel writes, is clear! Let me rephrase that: Ezekiel 36:10 is CLEARLY not clear. LOL!

    The prophets state only a remnant returns, Biblewriter, and the Lord allowed only a small remnant to return. They are blessed and well cared for, according to the new covenant.
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    Biblewriter, you are reading way too much into that statement. All the Lord is saying is the rebellious descendants of Abraham will find no permanent homes anywhere, whether they desired to settle in Babylon, Egypt, or wherever. We know that has been fulfilled. Their descendants have been kicked out of well over 100 countries, at one time or another. Moses predicted that early on, so Ezekiel's prophecy is nothing new:

    "And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:" -- Deu 28:65

    I think I beginning to understand what you are claiming. See if this is right. You expected the rebels to be immediately brought out of the lands of their captivity upon the initial return of the exiles to Israel; and since they were not, the prophecy of the rebels must be a future event. Is that what you are claiming?
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    Ezekiel is nearly all parables, Biblewriter. Are you also claiming that Eze 38 and 39 is literal?

    :)
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  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    As you have said BW, people like Rev20 have closed their minds the Prophetic truth.

    What's it all about, anyway? Will God allow those atheistic and apostate Jews remain in His holy Land? What about all those murderous and satanic Islamists who occupy huge areas of the original holy Land?
    No, scripture clearly says He won't and His promises to His righteous people will come to pass, or we all might just as well throw our Bibles into the recycle bin.
    One great promise is in Romans 9:24-25...in the very place...they will be called 'the sons of the Living God'. The 'very place'- that is: the Land of Israel. 'Sons of God', hardly applies to the Jews at present.
    We await the amazing fulfilment of Ezekiel 37 and going to live in all of the holy Land, as God planned it and so comprehensively prophesied. Jer. 50:4

    Rev20, yes Ezekiel 38 &39 are to be understood literally. Do not doubt it will happen as described, God's purpose - Eze 38:23 and 39:7 &21, is stated: the reason for that attack is for God to display His glory. If you prefer to allegorize it, make it history or place it at the end of the Millennium, how does that 'display His glory'?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2014
  18. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Where does the NT care about a Holy Land?

    You guys should not be bashing people with 'liar' and 'deluded' bible passages. You need to stick with rational arguments and examples or nothing.

    Your use of the "very place" is hilariously mistaken. it was one of his examples of the Gentiles coming to faith, and it referred to Paul's ministry work. You are so mistaken, because you are driven by 2P2P.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I call people liars inky when they are caught in an outright lie. But people who choose to not believe what God has explicitly said are indeed deluded.

    Your question, "Where does the NT care about a Holy Land?" is completely the wrong question. The question you should be asking is, where does the New Testament say that these Old Testament prophecies have been cancelled is redirected to the church? And the answer is, no where. There is not even one New Testament passage that says this. Yet you keep on insisting that this is what it teaches.
     
  20. Rev20

    Rev20 Partial Preterist

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    If your interpretation of the prophecies was accurate, Biblewriter, there would be confirmation scriptures in the new covenant. Yet, there are none. Why should anyone believe your interpretation of the prophecies when neither Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, nor any of the Gospels confirm it? In fact, Paul warned us about the old testament:

    "And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." -- 2Cor 3:13-14

    You seem to be claiming you have it all figured out, which the Jews could not, and have not to this day. Certainly there is nothing in the old testament available to us that was not available to them. So which parts of the new covenant enlightened you to the proper way to interpret the old?
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    You are aware that verse is referring to the spirit of antichrist and the man of sin, aren't you? Are you comparing me to the man of sin, Biblewriter? Is it because I don't believe your interpretation of the Old (and New) Testaments? That is the epitome of self-righteousness. Shame on you.

    Are you not aware that the truth is Jesus Christ? The Words of the new covenant is the truth, Biblewriter:

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6

    "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -- John 5:39-40 KJV

    "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" -- John 15:26

    "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" -- Rom 15:8

    "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -- 1Tim 2:4-5

    "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. . . Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." -- 2Tim 2:1-3, 15

    "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." -- Tit 1:14

    There is nothing stopping you from committing the error of the Pharisees, Biblewriter; even their vain error of self-righteousness. But I don't recommend it.

    :)
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