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Featured New Heaven and Earth Discussion

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Tsquared, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Which did Paul belong to?
    The elect or the remnant?
     
  2. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Both.
    ANY of Israel that accepted Jesus were both elect, and of the remnant.
    Not all of remnant Israel are also "elect".
    The elect are going to reign WITH Jesus.
    The remnant of Israel, that will be restored, will be REIGNED OVER by Jesus and the elect.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So Paul will reign over himself then?
     
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Paul won't be mortal, Paul will be ruling. Jesus will be Paul's king .... since Jesus will be "king of kings".
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I read it, and did not miss anything you posted.

    The context of Romans 11:1-10 is Israel
    Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
    Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

    The word chosen in vs 5 is eklogēn, which means:
    Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).
    [1589 /eklogḗ ("divine selection") occurs seven times in the Greek NT. The cognate verb 1586 /eklégomai ("select, choose out") occurs 22 times "and is always in the Greek middle voice" (DNTT, 1, 538).]
    1589 [e] eklogē is the word found in vs 7.

    I did not manufacturer the word elect remnant, it is clearly found in Romans 11. Don't falsely accuse friend. We are given 2 groups of Israelites in vs 7: the elect and the hardened. So which group does the remnant, elected by grace, just as in the time of Elijah, belong to?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I would disagree and say the remnant, in this discussion, are those who know Christ and the rest are those that have hardened. You did claim that the remnant broke the covenant, and the term remnant, biblically, typically refers to those who God has kept for himself.
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    I know you didn't ... which is why I wrote; "the phrase "elect remnant" is not Biblical".

    Don't falsely accuse friend.
    Does this ring a bell?
    ... Yes, there WAS a remnant of natural Israel that remained true to Jehovah/YHVH God, and His "holy servant" Jesus of Nazareth. For the first 3 1/2 years of the church, (which was the final half week of Daniel 9:27), the apostles preached to the Jews.

    I think I see your confusion. It seems you are not aware of the meaning of "remnant", you seem to think there is only, and can only be ONE "remnant". The word merely means "a remaining portion". There are more than one "remnant". In fact, here is a wicked "remnant";
    Ezek 5:10-11 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. 11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.[/QUOTE]
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So some of the remnant will be ruling then?
    A remnant of the remnant perhaps?

    Isn't Jesus already King of Kings?
    We aren't still waiting for that are we?
     
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The word merely means "a remaining portion". There are more than one "remnant". In fact, here is a wicked "remnant";
    Ezek 5:10-11 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. 11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.
    Jesus WILL BE King of Kings at his return. Until then, he is expecting;
    Heb 10:12-13 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant elected by grace.

    I would say the phrase is biblical, but I'm having a hard time following your stance. In the instance above, you say it is not biblical, but in another as seen below, you agree it is biblical.
    So how is the remnant elect not biblical if you agreed that paul is one of the remnant elect?


    I agree with you here, so there is no need to condescend.
    So would you say this passage is about the end of the world, or 66-70AD the Jewish Roman war?

     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Finally, back to the heart of the discussion. So we can agree that Christ is in heaven UNTIL his enemies are made a footstool. According to 1 Corinthians 15, what happens after the Father has put all things under Christ's feet?
     
  12. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    We can CERTAINLY agree that Christ is currently in heaven, waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool. But, it sounds like you think Jesus won't leave heaven until that is COMPLETED, while the Scriptures show it is a process that spans more than 1,000 years.
    It BEGINS when Jehovah/YHVH God sends Jesus back to the earth to conquer his enemies, and reign on the planet,
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    THEN cometh the end;

    Rev 20:7-21:3 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
     
  13. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    It's clear. It's our new home.
     
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  14. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Your previous posts seem to be equating "remnant" with "elect".... and the phrase you kept repeating "elect remnant", isn't ever found in Scripture. Remnant does NOT equal "elect". Sometimes the "remnant" is evil, as the Scripture I posted illustrates.
    Neither. I would say this prophecy was about the events that would happen very shortly, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Zedekiah.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    That is correct, the only reason I think that, is because that is what Acts 2:34-35, 1 Corinthians 15:25, and Hebrews 10:13 tell us. Those verses literally tell us that Christ ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, reigning, UNTIL his enemies are made a foot stool. He even tells us he has all authority in heaven and on earth. However, I do believe that Christ can be present on earth, even while he is seated at the right hand: Matthew 28:20. He is God after all, and can do all things.

    My problem with the millennial view, or at least the one you have provided ( I do not know to much about the millennial view as I have never studied it until we started this discussion, only the posts you provided) , is first, it states that Christ is currently not reigning. I can't and will not agree with that. If you would have even just said Christ is reigning in heaven and will come to earth to reign for 1,000 years, I could have definitely been in more of an agreement with you. Secondly, you stated that in the future, believers will be required to perform animal sacrifices again. Again, I can't and will not agree with that. Christ's sacrifice was perfect and there is no need to sacrifice animals again. Thirdly, you use a lot revelation and prophecies with apocalyptic language to back your view. If you've gone through any forums on this website about eschatology, you can see that there are hundreds of different views on revelation. When you say that Christ is not currently reigning and believers will be required to perform animal sacrifices in the future, it makes it harder for me to trust that you are the one who knows the absolute truth. And finally, your kind of condescending to others on these forums. Please be gentle. Some of us may not know as much as you. 1 timothy 2:25-26
    He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

    I know I have been condescending at some points as well and often use this verse to remind myself, so I apologize in the event that i was friend.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is:
    Romans 11:5
    3005 [e] leimma λεῖμμα* a remnant N-NNS
    2596 [e] kat’ κατ’ according to Prep
    1589 [e] eklogēn ἐκλογὴν [the] election N-AFS



    In the context of Romans 11, with the phrase remnant according to election, it does. But I also agree with you the word remnant literally means small portion of, so in the context of ezekiel 5, a small portion (remnant) of wicked will be scattered, while another small portion (remnant) of the wicked will be slayed by the sword, and another small portion (remnant) will be burned with the city.

    Maybe you can help me with this then:

    Ezekiel 5:10-12
    And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. 10 Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you, and sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds. 11 Wherefore, as I live, says the Lord God, surely, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things and with all your abominations, therefore I will cut you down; my eye will not spare, and I will have no pity. 12 A third part of you shall die of pestilence and be consumed with famine in the midst of you; a third part shall fall by the sword round about you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds and will unsheathe the sword after them.

    These same things happened during the Jewish Roman war. If God said he would never do it again, why did he do it again?
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    First, I was very deliberate in the words I chose.... because of these statements you quote. Jesus DOES remain in heaven, until his God begins the process of making all his enemies his foot stool. But, that PROCESS takes more than one thousand years to complete, which is why Paul used the phrase "then cometh the end". Notice Paul has already discussed the first resurrection "at Christ's coming". So, the phrase "then cometh the end" is a SEQUENTIAL statement, which Rev 20 very clearly explains.

    He ascended to his God, and is seated at his God's right hand (Luke 20:17). He "can do all things" because his God gave him that power, and that ability, Jesus stated that he could do nothing of himself. (John 5:19-31). The way you have phrased this isn't ever stated, explained or preached in the Scriptures, and contradicts the way Jesus and his God ARE stated, explained and preached.

    If you look back at my posts, you will discover you're not representing me accurately. I have said Jesus IS reigning in the hearts of the believers. I have said Jesus DOES have all authority, and all power. BUT, Jesus is NOT reigning on the earth, as he will when his God begins the process of making all Jesus' enemies his foot stool! At this time, the nations of the world, and the society of the world ... the "cosmos".... is directly under Satan's influence, and is opposed to Jehovah, and His anointed. The day will come when the trumpet will sound, and the proclamation is made; "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ." (Rev 11:15)
    You are inventing this "conflict". The reinstatement of animal sacrifices is not an indication that Christ's sacrifice wasn't perfect. We are instructed to eat unleavened bread, and drink the fruit of the vine in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice. This doesn't dishonor his sacrifice, it is the opposite.
    Remember, the previous sacrifices were looking forward to Christ's sacrifice, and NOTHING is stopping those future sacrifices being a REMINDER .... just like communion is now.

    Sorry, your point isn't the least bit persuasive. The fact that the majority disagrees is more a source of confidence than a source of doubt.... the majority is almost ALWAYS wrong. And, your attempt to avoid the clear statements in revelation and prophecies is a natural "self defense" mechanism. Those statements directly oppose your views, so your protests about my use of them will go unheeded.


    Point well taken! It is NEVER a mistake to reconsider our behavior in the light of Scripture. I have noticed the tone of your posts has dramatically improved, and I appreciate your constructive criticism, and will attempt to be more gentle. Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree, the scriptures do not say Christ will remain in heaven until God begins the process of making all his enemies a foot stool. They state that Christ will remain in heaven until they are made a foot stool. The process occurs while Christ is in heaven and Christ will remain in heaven until they are made his foot stool.

    I agree, as i stated he "can" doesn't mean he does.

    Yes you did. But just to clarify, you mean that Christ has all authority over earth, he is just not here physically, correct?

    Again, this is a misquoting of scripture, the process does not begin after Christ returns to earth, It began when Christ sat at the right hand of God.

    Yes, we are instructed to do this in remembrance of Christ. The scriptures don't say that it is requirement though. You, however, said yes when asked if animal sacrifices will be required. You said they will be used to honor Christ's sacrifice. When asked to provide scripture, you provided several passages from Ezekiel that mention sin and guilt offerings (these are not to honor Christ, they are for atonement, Which we do not need due to Christ's perfect sacrifice). You never provided any scripture to show that sacrifices will be required in the future to honor Christs. You also used Jeremiah 33, which I believe is about Christ, and you used Zechariah 14, but no where does it say that sacrifices will be required to honor Christ.

    This wasn't meant to persuade you. I just don't fully trust your interpretation of scriptures due to your beliefs on the authority of Christ and future requirement of animal sacrifices, just as you probably don't trust mine. There are many views that oppose yours. There are many the oppose mine. In the end, it won't really matter, and I won't really be too worried about who's eschatological view was right. All that will matter is God. And friend on the latter part (all that matters is God) I bet we can agree :)
     
  19. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Scriptures very clearly state Jesus will return to this earth, and AT THAT TIME, the declaration is made; The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME (which is a statement regarding THAT TIME) the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ". Rev 11:15
    Scriptures very clearly state Jesus will then CONQUER the nations of the earth, (Rev 19, Psa 2, Psa 110, Isa 2, Zech 14, Eze 38,39, Luke 19:11-27)
    Scriptures very clearly state Jesus will reign on the earth, for 1,000 years (Rev 20).
    They also very clearly state, Jesus will make the righteous kings and priests, and they will reign WITH Jesus, over the nations, like Jehovah/YHVH God granted to Jesus. (Rev 2:26,27, Matt 19:28, Rev 4:9,10, Rev 20:4-6)

    The Scriptures also STATE that the LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death. This PROVES that there is a sequence ... an order ... a process.

    That's only part of it. Right now, Jesus is allowing the nations to run their course, with VERY LITTLE intervention. So, even though he has the power and authority, he has not been directed to conquer and rule.... yet.
    Per his God's plan, it is not yet TIME to end "the time of the Gentiles"... they are STILL trodding Jerusalem under foot. God is GOING to bring "all nations" into the land of Israel... and we can see it happening today. The key players are lining up exactly as Ezekiel prophesied in chapters 38 and 39, if you understand the ancient names of countries and peoples.
    Yes, I provided Scripture that explained animal sacrifices will be part of the Law. AND, I observed that the animal sacrifices in the Mosaic Law rolled sins forward to Christ's sacrifice, so it wouldn't be a problem for those future sacrifices to honor Christ's sacrifice.
    I DID NOT ever claim that this is stated in Scripture!
    On the other hand, there is no passage that states "animal sacrifices will NEVER be reinstated".

    I would love to agree with you ..... but it's just not that simple.
    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. .. If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I agree it is a process. But I don't agree when you said...
    This is a misquote of scripture.

    I would recommend not using this type of argument to defend your view.
     
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