New Heaven and Earth Discussion

[Dartman]

I agree it is a process. But I don't agree when you said...

Jesus DOES remain in heaven, until his God begins the process of making all his enemies his foot stool

This is a misquote of scripture.

It wasn't a quote. It was an accurate ASSESSMENT of Scripture. We KNOW the destruction of enemies is a process. We KNOW Jehovah/YHVH God is in charge of "the day and hour.

On the other hand, there is no passage that states "animal sacrifices will NEVER be reinstated

I would recommend not using this type of argument to defend your view.

It's the exact same argument you are using regarding demanding a Scripture that states animal sacrifices would be in honor of Christ's sacrifice. Again, I have NEVER claimed there was a Scripture that states such.

 

[claninja]

It wasn't a quote. It was an accurate ASSESSMENT of Scripture. We KNOW the destruction of enemies is a process. We KNOW Jehovah/YHVH God is in charge of "the day and hour.

Here is what the text literally says.
Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

You then said...

Jesus DOES remain in heaven, until his God begins the process of making all his enemies his foot stool.

The scriptures do not say this. I disagree that your assessment is accurate on above mentioned verses.

It's the exact same argument you are using regarding demanding a Scripture that states animal sacrifices would be in honor of Christ's sacrifice. Again, I have NEVER claimed there was a Scripture that states such.

We are not using the same argument styles in regards to animal sacrifices in the future. You made the claim that animal sacrifice will be required in the future. The burden of proof is on you. You then Use an "argument from ignorance" type of argument, which doesn't work when the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Dartman]

Here is what the text literally says.
Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

The scriptures do not say this. I disagree that your assessment is accurate on above mentioned verses.

You certainly have the ability to disagree, but your disagreement isn't logical.
We KNOW the destruction of enemies is a process.
We KNOW Jehovah/YHVH God is in charge of "the day and hour.
It is entirely logical to see Jesus' return, and destruction of his enemies as a clear fulfillment of both texts!

We are not using the same argument styles in regards to animal sacrifices in the future. You made the claim that animal sacrifice will be required in the future. The burden of proof is on you. You then Use an "argument from ignorance" type of argument, which doesn't work when the burden of proof is on you.

I have already proven that animal sacrifices WILL be required in the future. (Eze 40-45, Zech 14, etc.)

You attempted to disprove this by REASONING that animal sacrifices are somehow in CONFLICT with Christ's sacrifice! YOU have the burden of proof!

 

[claninja]

We KNOW the destruction of enemies is a process. It is entirely logical to see Jesus' return, and destruction of his enemies as a clear fulfillment of both texts!

Yes, completely agree with you that is a process. It's a process that occurs while Christ is IN heaven at the right hand and Christ will remain IN heaven until the process is completed. This is clearly shown in scripture. But you stated that this process will begin when Christ returns, which is not correct....it is an illogical assessment that makes your view hard to piece together and follow.

Jesus DOES remain in heaven, until his God begins the process of making all his enemies his foot stool

 

[claninja]

I have already proven that animal sacrifices WILL be required in the future. (Eze 40-45, Zech 14, etc.)

You attempted to disprove this by REASONING that animal sacrifices are somehow in CONFLICT with Christ's sacrifice! YOU have the burden of proof!

I am having a really hard time following you. Your conclusions are all over the place. You are saying animal sacrifices will be required in the future and you provided scripture, which you believe, shows that. Then You say the purpose of these sacrifices is to honor Christs sacrifice just like communion. But you said you never claimed that this reason for future animal sacrifices is actually in scripture. So there's no proof with that claim. Then you said:

On the other hand, there is no passage that states "animal sacrifices will NEVER be reinstated

This is a type of logical fallacy

So let's look at what ezekiel says is the reason for the animal sacrifices:
Ezekiel 43:27 And when they have completed these days, then from the eighth day onward the priests shall offer on the altar your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, and I will accept you, declares the Lord God.”

So it appears the purpose is so that God will accept them.

However, because of Christs perfect sacrifice there will never be a need for animal sacrifices.
Hebrews 10:14, 18 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

[Dartman]

Yes, completely agree with you that is a process. It's a process that occurs while Christ is IN heaven at the right hand and Christ will remain IN heaven until the process is completed.

No. The process for Christ's enemies becoming his foot stool is clearly described as literal conquering of those nations , so your ASSUMPTION that the text requires Jesus to stay in heaven, while the process is going on is an error. It doesn't harmonize with Scripture!
Jesus makes it VERY clear, he is going to RETURN to begin his kingdom;
Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

[Dartman]

I am having a really hard time following you. Your conclusions are all over the place. You are saying animal sacrifices will be required in the future and you provided scripture, which you believe, shows that.

Yes.

Then You say the purpose of these sacrifices is to honor Christs sacrifice just like communion.

No.
I did NOT say the PURPOSE is to honor Christ's sacrifice. I believe it is NOT a conflict with Christ's sacrifice, and in fact CAN honor his sacrifice, like communion does for the Church, AND like the animal sacrifices DID in the OT.
Your protests about an imagined conflict put the burden of proof on YOU!

 

[claninja]

so your ASSUMPTION that the text requires Jesus to stay in heaven, while the process is going on is an error.

I never made an assumption. Just posted what the scriptures literally say. These verses literally say Christ will be in heaven UNTIL his enemies are made a foot stool.

Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

 

[claninja]

No. The process for Christ's enemies becoming his foot stool is clearly described as literal conquering of those nations , so your ASSUMPTION that the text requires Jesus to stay in heaven, while the process is going on is an error. It doesn't harmonize with Scripture!
Jesus makes it VERY clear, he is going to RETURN to begin his kingdom;
Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The nobleman (Jesus) goes off to a far country ( heaven) to receive his kingdom. Having received the kingdom jesus returns. I agree, Jesus receives his kingdom when he ascends to the father

 

[claninja]

Yes.
No.
I did NOT say the PURPOSE is to honor Christ's sacrifice. I believe it is NOT a conflict with Christ's sacrifice, and in fact CAN honor his sacrifice, like communion does for the Church, AND like the animal sacrifices DID in the OT.
Your protests about an imagined conflict put the burden of proof on YOU!

Wrong. Those sacrifices will be in honor of Christ's sacrifice

But that's not found, as you said earlier, in scripture.
My apologies, I ASSUMED since you originally stated they WILL, not can, honor Christ, that was the purpose. So guess I ask that. Now:
Then what is the purpose of future animal sacrifices?

 

[Dartman]

The nobleman (Jesus) goes off to a far country ( heaven) to receive his kingdom. Having received the kingdom jesus returns. I agree, Jesus receives his kingdom when he ascends to the father

No. Jesus receives his kingdom AFTER he ascends to the Father. The kingdom begins WHEN the other nations are destroyed.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isa 2:1-4 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is GOING to happen "at the last trump";
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
This is the SAME trump/trumpet that signals the resurrection;
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ... 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Dartman]

I never made an assumption. Just posted what the scriptures literally say. These verses literally say Christ will be in heaven UNTIL his enemies are made a foot stool.

Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Hebrews 10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Jesus enemies becoming his foot stool requires Jesus to be on the earth conquering them.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[claninja]

No. Jesus receives his kingdom AFTER he ascends to the Father. The kingdom begins WHEN the other nations are destroyed.

Sure, after he ascends, he is presented to the Father, then he receives the kingdom. You can't deny that he is the nobleman that goes to the far country (heaven) to receive his kingdom
Daniel 7:13-14
and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him
14 And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

The kindgom is not meat and drink and its coming is not something that can be observed. Christ is currently "at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all." and who "has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

He will be there "until his enemies are made a footstool"

If that is not the definition of an all sovereign king is, then I don't know what is.

 

[claninja]

Jesus enemies becoming his foot stool requires Jesus to be on the earth conquering them.

No it doesn't and none of the verses you provided show that Christ is Required to be on earth for jesus' enemies to be made a foot stool. There are, however, specific verses that show that Christ is in heaven until his enemies are made a foot stool.

 

[Dartman]

Sure, after he ascends, he is presented to the Father, then he receives the kingdom.

Yes, just not immediately. In fact, it's been about 1900 years.

You can't deny that he is the nobleman that goes to the far country (heaven) to receive his kingdom
Daniel 7:13-14
and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him
14 And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Exactly. And, since those in Jerusalem thought his coming was SOON;
Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

The kindgom is not meat and drink and its coming is not something that can be observed. Christ is currently "at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all." and who "has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

He will be there "until his enemies are made a footstool"

If that is not the definition of an all sovereign his is ruling the universe, then I don't know what is.

You are ignoring the REST of the Scriptures, which define the timing of these truths.

I am CERTAINLY not denying the truths, I am pointing out how your interpretation doesn't match/harmonize with the other verses on the topic.
Jesus receives his kingdom AFTER he ascends to the Father. The kingdom begins WHEN the other nations are destroyed.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isa 2:1-4 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is GOING to happen "at the last trump";
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
This is the SAME trump/trumpet that signals the resurrection;
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ... 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Dartman]

No it doesn't and none of the verses you provided show that Christ is Required to be on earth for jesus' enemies to be made a foot stool.

The fact that the verses STATE Jesus WILL be on the earth, conquering his enemies, demonstrates that your insistence on a very limited understanding of "until his enemies are made his foot stool" is inaccurate. Any theory that fails to take THESE truths into account is unscriptural.

There are, however, specific verses that show that Christ is in heaven until his enemies are made a foot stool.

And as the rest of the Scriptures on this topic prove, Jehovah actually sends His son to the earth, to conquer those enemies. Regardless of your insistence otherwise, this is the harmony between ALL verses on the topic. You need to modify your doctrine to match the Scriptures, not ignore the Scriptures that don't match your doctrine.

 

[claninja]

Exactly. And, since those in Jerusalem thought his coming was SOON;

Yea, it probably didn't help either that John said the kingdom was at hand and Christ said it was near.

You are ignoring the REST of the Scriptures, which define the timing of these truths.

I am CERTAINLY not denying the truths, I am pointing out how your interpretation doesn't match/harmonize with the other verses on the topic.

There is no ignoring, where you are looking for the physical, I see the spiritual.

The kingdom begins WHEN the other nations are destroyed.

No, the kingdom is like a mustard seed

 

[claninja]

The fact that the verses STATE Jesus WILL be on the earth, conquering his enemies, demonstrates that your insistence on a very limited understanding of "until his enemies are made his foot stool" is inaccurate. Any theory that fails to take THESE truths into account is unscriptural.
And as the rest of the Scriptures on this topic prove, Jehovah actually sends His son to the earth, to conquer those enemies. Regardless of your insistence otherwise, this is the harmony between ALL verses on the topic. You need to modify your doctrine to match the Scriptures, not ignore the Scriptures that don't match your doctrine.

This is a very interesting discussion. I am arguing for that Christ received his kingdom and is currently reigning over heaven and earth with all authority and all powers subject to him and that there is no need for future animal sacrifices. You are stating that Christ is waiting in heaven (only reigning in our hearts), having not yet received a kingdom, and that future animal sacrifices will be required.

We will just have to agree to disagree, as I can't see this discussion going anywhere. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate this conversation. You have taught me a little about the millenial view. Based on what you presented, I don't agree with all of it, but it is still nice to learn about it, so thank you friend

 

[Phantasman]

Revelation 21:1 says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Personally, I've always been intrigued by this verse. I know there is no clear/obvious answer in regards to what the purpose of the new earth is for, but I want to hear everyone's views and ideas on this subject. What thoughts do you have concerning this passage?

It's a vision. I take it with a grain of salt as I do the Apocalypse of Peter (also read in the Catholic church for centuries). It was written to the churches that were being prosecuted at the time under the Roman leader Domitian. This comes from Eusebius 4th century writings "History of the Church".

I do not follow it as Gospel message, since the author writes differently than the books by the disciple, and it tends to be a physical overture rather than a spiritual one. It was a book of hope written to those who were being prosecuted (and killed for their beliefs).

It was used by the Orthodox Catholic to promote fear, something all other churches at the time refused to accept, and were never incorporated into the Gospel message.

 

[claninja]

Revelation 21:1 says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Personally, I've always been intrigued by this verse. I know there is no clear/obvious answer in regards to what the purpose of the new earth is for, but I want to hear everyone's views and ideas on this subject. What thoughts do you have concerning this passage?

This is a very interesting verse. To me the biggest question is, is heaven and earth literal or symbolic of the covenants?

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away, nothing in the law would change . Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

However, Hebrews tells us that there was a change in the law when Christ became our high priest. Hebrews 7:11-12 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood for under it the people received the law, what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.