NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

[Arius]

So you are not prepared to admit you quoted scripture incorrectly? I guess that is par for the course when you have been found out.

I have miss quoted the Bible "COUNTLESS TIMES" in my life, sometimes I have even swore that is what the Bible says, especially when I was still a Christian, and I was totally wrong. I was parroting what I was taught in church, which I assumed it was what the Bible said. And of course I'm sure I will do it again, but not on this my friend, so let's go over again as to what I said, and quoted:

John 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

and for the record, I will say this again in capitals, that I believe what the Bible says, that:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!

So when Dr. Richard Eby claims he seen God, and all these other Christians claim to have seen God, they are, .. well, .. letting their Religion induced imagination run wild.

The problem is not that they claim to have seen God, I can show you many places that even Jacob wrestled with God and he won! Yep, Jacob wrestled God to the point God called uncle, .. (just sayin'). Also it says that Ishmaels mother Hagar seen God, and she was glad that God let her live!

Moses talked to God in person:
Exodus 3:4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

OK, so it should be obvious from the above verses that Moses both seen, and talked to God, right? Yet John 1:18 stands, and it is truth: No one has seen God at any time, is because it is impossible to see "Infinite conscious Mind/Spirit". because there is nothing, or no "thing" to see!
Just as I cannot see your mind and you cannot see mine, until I reveal myself to you, and you to me, .. or if someone else "declares" me to you.

The same way: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him

So, .. since our Infinite and Eternal Creator Spirit/Mind "I Am" is impossible to be seen (like our minds are) and the only way to see God is by Revelation and Declaration, I say that from Dr. Eby's testimony that he did NOT see God.
He seen something, and from all the 'fantastic' stories that I've heard of people claiming seeing, and touching, and conversing with God over the years, I say the good doctor may have seen some spirits in the supernatural realm, those deities he worships who appeared to be "Angels of Light!"
Spirit beings can be seen, as can Angels who take on human forms, and I have encountered both in my lifetime. But God is Spirit, and only those in the Spirit can see/understand who He is.

John 4:24 (Jesus said) God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
So even though Moses and all those who say that they have seen God, we know they didn't actually "see" God, like with Moses, he seen and talked with an Angel, a Fiery Angel. But what he witnessed in declaration was from God. The proof was all the miracles, and everything that the Fiery Angel said came true.

This is why we have to "Test the spirits", and it's not just that if they look like the characters in the paintings on the Vatican's walls, or those statues, it must be true!

God bless you.

 

[Episaw]

I have miss quoted the Bible "COUNTLESS TIMES" in my life, sometimes I have even swore that is what the Bible says, especially when I was still a Christian, and I was totally wrong. I was parroting what I was taught in church, which I assumed it was what the Bible said. And of course I'm sure I will do it again, but not on this my friend, so let's go over again as to what I said, and quoted:

John 1:16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

and for the record, I will say this again in capitals, that I believe what the Bible says, that:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!

So when Dr. Richard Eby claims he seen God, and all these other Christians claim to have seen God, they are, .. well, .. letting their Religion induced imagination run wild.

The problem is not that they claim to have seen God, I can show you many places that even Jacob wrestled with God and he won! Yep, Jacob wrestled God to the point God called uncle, .. (just sayin'). Also it says that Ishmaels mother Hagar seen God, and she was glad that God let her live!

Moses talked to God in person:
Exodus 3:4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

OK, so it should be obvious from the above verses that Moses both seen, and talked to God, right? Yet John 1:18 stands, and it is truth: No one has seen God at any time, is because it is impossible to see "Infinite conscious Mind/Spirit". because there is nothing, or no "thing" to see!
Just as I cannot see your mind and you cannot see mine, until I reveal myself to you, and you to me, .. or if someone else "declares" me to you.

The same way: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him

So, .. since our Infinite and Eternal Creator Spirit/Mind "I Am" is impossible to be seen (like our minds are) and the only way to see God is by Revelation and Declaration, I say that from Dr. Eby's testimony that he did NOT see God.
He seen something, and from all the 'fantastic' stories that I've heard of people claiming seeing, and touching, and conversing with God over the years, I say the good doctor may have seen some spirits in the supernatural realm, those deities he worships who appeared to be "Angels of Light!"
Spirit beings can be seen, as can Angels who take on human forms, and I have encountered both in my lifetime. But God is Spirit, and only those in the Spirit can see/understand who He is.

John 4:24 (Jesus said) God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
So even though Moses and all those who say that they have seen God, we know they didn't actually "see" God, like with Moses, he seen and talked with an Angel, a Fiery Angel. But what he witnessed in declaration was from God. The proof was all the miracles, and everything that the Fiery Angel said came true.

This is why we have to "Test the spirits", and it's not just that if they look like the characters in the paintings on the Vatican's walls, or those statues, it must be true!

God bless you.

Ho hum.

 

[vinsight4u]

nvm

 

[HitchSlap]

God did not show Moses His face. That would have caused Moses to die.

Exodus 33:20

“And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.”

Moses saw the back parts.

Genesis 32:30

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[HitchSlap]

Those are when the term "angel" is mentioned,

Nope. It literally means "face of god." It's one of the hundreds of contradictions in the bible. How you reconcile those are your business, but don't expect others to bury our heads.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[HitchSlap]

Look at Daniel 10 where the holy being kept coming to Daniel in lesser and lesser ways, so Daniel could talk to him.

Look at Genesis 32:30 where Jacob actually says, "For I have seen god face to face and my life is preserved."

That's what "Peniel" actually means. The passage doesn't make sense if Jacob actually hadn't saw god face to face. Otherwise there would be no need to declare that he actually lived.

If you assume that he didn't actually see god face to face, there would be no need to proclaim his life was spared. It doesn't make any sense if you were to claim, 'hey, I've never seen god, and I didn't die.'

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[HitchSlap]

Have a good one.

 

[Arius]

Ho hum.

Glad you agree. Wait, did you mean Oh hum, or Ho hum, because there is a difference you know!?

 

[Arius]

God did not show Moses His face. That would have caused Moses to die.

Exodus 33:20

“And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.”

Moses saw the back parts.

I read the rest of what you wrote, you bring up some very interesting quotes. So what's going on here, looks from the Scriptures that a lot of people seen God "face to face", and even wrestled with Him and lived, yet Moses of all people, was kept from seeing God's face!?

Can God be seen face to face (Genesis 32:30; Exodus 33:11) or not (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)?
Relevant passages:
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
Exodus 33:11
So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

The answer as we take it from the Bible is simple really, if you understand who God Is.

God is The "Only Possible 'conscious' Infinite (for you cannot have two Infinites) and Eternal Mind/Spirit as He described Himslef, the "I Am".
There is nothing in Infinite and Eternal that can be seen with ANY created eyes, not the Angels, not the Cherubim, not man or beast ,, and not even Gods son Word aka Jesus Christ can see, or ever seen God "at any time", which is why 1 John 4:12 stands.

We know God has a heart where He tells us He can love, .. not only is He The Infinite Mind/Spirit, but he has a separate mind that He has a search-engine he calls the Holy Spirit that goes and searches for Him.
He has eyes to see, and nothing can be hid from those eyes of His, and of course He can smell, both our offerings which He says sends out a sweet smelling aroma, .. and also smell the stench of our sins.
He can love, and hate, can both bless and curse. He even created evil.
God get's annoyed, .. and also tired, where we read that "He took a day off from work to rest!"
He can get very jealous, he even done things that he felt sorry for and repented from (like Noah's flood).
Then there are those like Abraham, Jacob and Moses who have argued with God, and made Him change his mind about certain things.
He puts "reminders" for himself like he did with the rainbow to keep himself from going back on His word.
He can walk and asks us to "walk with Him", and of course He can sit, as He is when He is on his Throne. So God is very much like us, only all His parts are invisible Spirit, like our mid is. I mean it's, .. it's almost as if our 'bodies' were created in His 'invisible' image, .. right!? Well pof course, that's how it must have been, and that is exactly how it is.
We, starting with His Son Word, were created in the "visible image", .. of the "Invisible God!".

So once we get to know more of our Creator God, and who his Son Word is, then there really are no contradictions.

One Day, We shall see Him face to face. For now, we see Him as if through a cloud of mist, but then we shall see Him as He really is!
Moses, in the cleft of the rock did not yet seen Him "as He really is", .. not yet, until all things are fulfilled, after the present heavens and the earth will be destroyed and a New Earth and a New Heaven be revealed. It is THEN, in our New Spiritual 'body' (still a body, and God has no body like that for He is all Mind/Spirit), then we'll be able to look upon His Full Glory and not melt, or be burnt up like if we were to look upon Him today.
Even looking at Gods "back side Glory" turned Moses 'glowing white', where he had to cover his face not to frighten the people.

The rest of the people in the Bible who claimed to have "seen God and lived", means that; they knew if they seen God in His full glory, or "would have looked upon His face" they'd be dead, so obviously what they seen, as what Moses seen initially, is a 'body' that God used at each different appearances.

Like the Fiery Angel, .. Moses looked the Angel right in the eyes, and even though God was speaking through him at the time, Moses (as can all the others) could claim "I have seen God and lived".

But later, on the Mountain of God, for now God was no longer using the Fiery Angel, so He put Moses in the cleft of the rock, and covered his face until He, His Glorious Self, the Great "I Am" passed him by, so now Moses Really did see God, the Power/Glory of God as He really is, nut only His back side, not full Face On Glory, .. and lived.
And even like that it says that his hair turned white as snow, and his face shined like we would describe a fluorescent bulb.

God bless.

 

[morse86]

Doctor Who???? The bible is my final authority, not some hillbilly paper certificate holder.

The bible describes a young earth creation. End of story. There is no gap. Anyone who reads Genesis 1 and 2 with out reading all these utterly rubbish "internet articles" first, understands there is no gap theory.

 

[DennisTate]

Indeed it is!

If you get a Scofield Reference Bible, it too has notes on the Gap Theory (Scofield was a Gap Theorist).

And here is a great example of why this discussion is really quite important.......
I am of the belief that a more Theistic Version of Evolutionary Theory that
includes Old Earth plus Gap Theory.... could actually end up being taught to
our kids and grandchildren in schools........

.... whereas the Young Earth Theory is probably going to become nothing more
than a phenomena studied by historians?!

but I could be wrong... .and I often am?!

Can an old earth be proven?

Is the earth and universe old? Are there scientific evidences that can prove this?

Recently I started a thread examining evidences supplied by Answers in Genesis about a young earth. There were a lot of responses and discussions and I found overall that the science could neither persuade or dissuade me from a conviction that we live in a young universe which is in essence based on the bible and a belief in miracles.

But 2 arguments for an old universe really bother me.

1) Overlapping tree rings. Radagast used this one in the aforementioned thread. While the oldest tree trunk on which tree rings have been counted reaches only 5000 years. When you compare patterns of fossilised tree trunks from dead trees in the same forest you can go back a further 10000 years. This then becomes a problem for me holding the YEC viewpoint that the earth is only 6000 years old and there was a flood just 4500 years ago.

2) Starlight: We know that light travels 186000 miles a second. When Supernova 1985 exploded the speed of light was measured at 186000 miles a second there also by looking at how long it took to vaporize the rings around that star at measurable distances from the star itself. The star itself is 250000 light years away. So if light travelled at the same speed 250000 years ago then it is a constant and this event occurred 250000 years ago. Thus the YEC timescales become impossible.

Are these and other arguments proof that the YEC position is scientifically untenable?

 

[Episaw]

and for the record, I will say this again in capitals, that I believe what the Bible says, that:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!

When John wrote that he was right but since he wrote that in the new dimension of the new covenant seeing God was possible as the new covenant heralded in a new set of parameters for the way things happened.

I have seen God and been in his presence and you can argue until you are blue in the face such things do not happen but I know it DID happen.

 

[Episaw]

And here is a great example of why this discussion is really quite important.......
I am of the belief that a more Theistic Version of Evolutionary Theory that
includes Old Earth plus Gap Theory.... could actually end up being taught to
our kids and grandchildren in schools........

.... whereas the Young Earth Theory is probably going to become nothing more
than a phenomena studied by historians?!

but I could be wrong... .and I often am?!

Can an old earth be proven?

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,
Gen 1:3 then God said, Let light be! And there was light

Whatever version you use, when God created the heavens and the earth, they were without form and empty and there was darkness on the fact of the deep. (this is a literal translation). I do not think that aspect is under question.

Between Genesis 1 v 1-2 and 3 was there no gap, a small gap or a large gap? I am not sure that the answer is relevant. What is relevant is that God created the world as we know it in six days as Genesis shows.

So is there an old earth and a new earth creation? Probably both but we must not forget that the six days are the essential aspect of it and evolution has tried to replace it to get God out of the picture.

 

[DennisTate]

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,
Gen 1:3 then God said, Let light be! And there was light

Whatever version you use, when God created the heavens and the earth, they were without form and empty and there was darkness on the fact of the deep. (this is a literal translation). I do not think that aspect is under question.

Between Genesis 1 v 1-2 and 3 was there no gap, a small gap or a large gap? I am not sure that the answer is relevant. What is relevant is that God created the world as we know it in six days as Genesis shows.

So is there an old earth and a new earth creation? Probably both but we must not forget that the six days are the essential aspect of it and evolution has tried to replace it to get God out of the picture.

My major point is that I have no theological problem at all with
these statements from Christian near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby:

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"

An old earth..... with possibly billions of years going by before the earth was destroyed in a Star War like revolt..... after which G-d repairs the earth so that Adam and Eve and the animals can live on it........ is the best way to put all of this together.

I regard the Bible as the foundation of knowledge.......
but I accept information from other sources to fill in gaps on information that the Bible does not cover.

 

[Episaw]

My major point is that I have no theological problem at all with
these statements from Christian near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby:.

I didn't say you did.

 

[Arius]

When John wrote that he was right but since he wrote that in the new dimension of the new covenant seeing God was possible as the new covenant heralded in a new set of parameters for the way things happened.

True, we have gone from the physical law to Christ's Spiritual Kingdom, for we now are to walk according to the spirit, not according to the flesh.
But that wouldn't change who God is thou, would it? In the Spiritual sense seeing God is knowing God.

I have seen God and been in his presence and you can argue until you are blue in the face such things do not happen but I know it DID happen.

I never said it didn't happen, I just said what the Bible says, and what scientifically logical, that since God is All Spirit, like our mind/spirit is, He cannot be seen. There is no created "thing", .. in other words there is nothing to see of God.
But if you say you did see God, may I ask what form He appeared to you in? Because as interesting as that sounds, there are many, many Christians that seen God, and every form that God appeared to people seems different.

people who seen God - YouTube