My Raisin Bread Challenge

[Bungle_Bear]

God hid that He made it appear to be older than it actually is?

That's a nice, vague misrepresentation. Be more precise - God hid that he made the Earth appear 4.5 billion years older than it actually is.

Ok so let me ask you this, can a planet in its 3rd day during the natural creation process support plant life? Can it support aquatic life on its 5th day of the natural creation process? Can it support animal and human life on it’s 6th day in the natural creation process? Can it even support life in it’s 6,000th year during the natural creation process? The answer to all of these is no. So by giving us this information He basically did tell us that it does in fact appear to be older than it actually is in comparison to the natural creation process.

How many planets have you seen created? How many days does it take to be able to support the various different types of life? Is God telling us the Earth is 100,000 years old? 1 million? 2 billion? Simply saying "the Earth is older than 6,000 years" isn't really saying anything, is it? It's deceptive.

Let's look at what the Earth tells us - life has been around for at least 3.7 billion years. But multi-cellular aquatic life probably didn't appear until about 800 million years ago. Was that because the Earth couldn't support that life, or did it just take a long time appear? That leads us nicely into another little deception - plants didn't appear until about 500 million years ago. How does that work with your non-deceptive god argument where he supposedly created plants long before aquatic life?

You're seriously clutching at very weak straws.

 

[dlamberth]

And how old does the raisin bread tell you it is?

Old enough for the grape plants to be planted, grown, produce fruit, harvested and dried.
And old enough for the grain in the bread to be planted, grown, harvested, milled, mixed in with the other ingredients and baked, because as we are told, it is warm.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's a nice, vague misrepresentation. Be more precise - God hid that he made the Earth appear 4.5 billion years older than it actually is.

How many planets have you seen created? How many days does it take to be able to support the various different types of life? Is God telling us the Earth is 100,000 years old? 1 million? 2 billion? Simply saying "the Earth is older than 6,000 years" isn't really saying anything, is it? It's deceptive.

Let's look at what the Earth tells us - life has been around for at least 3.7 billion years. But multi-cellular aquatic life probably didn't appear until about 800 million years ago. Was that because the Earth couldn't support that life, or did it just take a long time appear? That leads us nicely into another little deception - plants didn't appear until about 500 million years ago. How does that work with your non-deceptive god argument where he supposedly created plants long before aquatic life?

You're seriously clutching at very weak straws.

You act as if God didn’t divulge every single detail then He’s being deceptive. As if Adam looked around the garden of Eden and everything was beautiful and green and lush and then he traveled a couple thousand miles and found a desert and said AHAH!! God made the earth appear to be all beautiful and green and lush and look what we have here, a dry desert wasteland almost completely void of life. WHAT A DECEIVER GOD IS!! Or maybe Adam dug into the ground and found some iron and copper and said AHAH!! Look what God was hiding from me this whole time!! He’s such a deceiver for not telling me about this making the world appear as if these metals didn’t exist!! That’s how ridiculous you sound right now.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You act as if God didn’t divulge every single detail then He’s being deceptive. As if Adam looked around the garden of Eden and everything was beautiful and green and lush and then he traveled a couple thousand miles and found a desert and said AHAH!! God made the earth appear to be all beautiful and green and lush and look what we have here, a dry desert wasteland almost completely void of life. WHAT A DECEIVER GOD IS!! Or maybe Adam dug into the ground and found some iron and copper and said AHAH!! Look what God was hiding from me this whole time!! He’s such a deceiver for not telling me about this making the world appear as if these metals didn’t exist!! That’s how ridiculous you sound right now.

Nice strawman.

Would you care to actually address the issue that has been raised, or are you just going to keep avoiding it and argue against points nobody has made?

 

[AV1611VET]

Old enough for the grape plants to be planted, grown, produce fruit, harvested and dried.
And old enough for the grain in the bread to be planted, grown, harvested, milled, mixed in with the other ingredients and baked, because as we are told, it is warm.

Yet it came into existence in an instant.

Miracle?

Can God make a dress tomorrow, so old it falls apart with age?

 

[dlamberth]

Yet it came into existence in an instant.

Miracle?

Can God make a dress tomorrow, so old it falls apart with age?

No one knows. Everyone believes the loaf of bread has age and history. That's the deception. God does not deceive.

 

[AV1611VET]

No one knows.

I do.

Everyone believes the loaf of bread has age and history.

Then everyone's wrong, aren't they?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

That's the deception.

No.

That's a miracle.

God does not deceive.

Then why is He accused of it?

 

[Derf]

That APPEARS TO BE billions of years in the making you mean.

Why do you think it "appears" to be billions of years in the making? Isn't it because someone told you it appears to be billions of years in the making? What does billions of years of a creation look like? How do we know? We are assuming the scientists are correct that it appears to be billions of years old. This is the problem with the raisin bread analogy. We KNOW what a loaf of raisin bread is supposed to look like, fresh from the oven, with raisins that used to be grapes, and wheat that grew in the ground and was threshed and milled to make bread. But if there were ever only one loaf of raisin bread that had ever been made, made of a substance called "wheat" that we had never seen before, and it had a strange fruit in it called "raisins" dried from grapes that we had never seen before, would we know enough to assume that it didn't take merely a thought to create it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nice strawman.

Would you care to actually address the issue that has been raised, or are you just going to keep avoiding it and argue against points nobody has made?

Nah there’s no reason, I made my point already.

“You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you think it "appears" to be billions of years in the making? Isn't it because someone told you it appears to be billions of years in the making? What does billions of years of a creation look like? How do we know? We are assuming the scientists are correct that it appears to be billions of years old. This is the problem with the raisin bread analogy. We KNOW what a loaf of raisin bread is supposed to look like, fresh from the oven, with raisins that used to be grapes, and wheat that grew in the ground and was threshed and milled to make bread. But if there were ever only one loaf of raisin bread that had ever been made, made of a substance called "wheat" that we had never seen before, and it had a strange fruit in it called "raisins" dried from grapes that we had never seen before, would we know enough to assume that it didn't take merely a thought to create it?

One thing I find interesting is that scientists believe that man as we are today has existed for around 300,000 years yet historians believe that the first wheel was invented 3500 BC. I find it strange that for roughly 295,000 years of man’s existence he never learned how to make something as simple as a wheel when we can see the concept of a wheel in the natural world by watching a rock or a log roll down a hill, yet for 98% of man’s existence the idea completely escaped him. Then in just the last 1.8% of man’s existence he invented everything we have today including internet, space travel, smart phones & computers, etc, etc. Sounds a bit hard to believe to me. But if man was first created 6,000 years ago and took 500 years to invent the wheel and since then accomplished everything we have today that seems more realistic. It seems more like a steady progression of technology instead of almost nothing for the first 295,000 years then BAM! We have everything in the last 5,500 years. Just my observation.

 

[dlamberth]

That's a miracle.Then why is He accused of it?

It's whole idea of embedded age as laid out in this forum by people that's a deception. And than they falsely claim God did it. But it not something God can not do because God can not deceive.

 

[dlamberth]

I do.Then everyone's wrong, aren't they?

With the story line setup by the OP, everyone was deceived.

 

[AV1611VET]

With the story line setup by the OP, everyone was deceived.

LOL -- because it was created in an instant?

When Jesus fed the 5000, was the fish cooked? the bread warm?

If so, was Jesus deceiving them?

 

[dlamberth]

LOL -- because it was created in an instant?

When Jesus fed the 5000, was the fish cooked? the bread warm?

If so, was Jesus deceiving them?

The OP is about an imaginary loaf of bread popped into existence by an imaginary God.

What ever Jesus did, He did not deceive with embedded age.

 

[AV1611VET]

The OP is about an imaginary loaf of bread popped into existence by an imaginary God.

What ever Jesus did, He did not deceive with embedded age.

Oh, well.

As I said in the OP, it's to show how an act of creation with embedded age can't be considered deceptive.

If you find it deceptive, then it's because you don't understand it.

 

[dlamberth]

Oh, well.

As I said in the OP, it's to show how an act of creation with embedded age can't be considered deceptive.

If you find it deceptive, then it's because you don't understand it.

What I'm not understanding is the images of God not being straight up and unabashedly truthful with all that He does. Embedded age is no that.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Nah there’s no reason, I made my point already.

“You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You haven't made a point. You've argued against strawmen, you've avoided addressing issues raised and you've moved goalposts. And now you declare victory.

YEC ftw!

 

[Bungle_Bear]

One thing I find interesting is that scientists believe that man as we are today has existed for around 300,000 years yet historians believe that the first wheel was invented 3500 BC. I find it strange that for roughly 295,000 years of man’s existence he never learned how to make something as simple as a wheel when we can see the concept of a wheel in the natural world by watching a rock or a log roll down a hill, yet for 98% of man’s existence the idea completely escaped him. Then in just the last 1.8% of man’s existence he invented everything we have today including internet, space travel, smart phones & computers, etc, etc. Sounds a bit hard to believe to me. But if man was first created 6,000 years ago and took 500 years to invent the wheel and since then accomplished everything we have today that seems more realistic. It seems more like a steady progression of technology instead of almost nothing for the first 295,000 years then BAM! We have everything in the last 5,500 years. Just my observation.

Those poor Incas, Polynesians and Mississipians must have been really stupid.

Argument from incredulity. Wow.

 

[Astrophile]

Nah there’s no reason, I made my point already.

“You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This looks like a description (or perhaps a prophecy) of young earth creationists.

 

[Derf]

What I'm not understanding is the images of God not being straight up and unabashedly truthful with all that He does. Embedded age is no that.

Can you give an example of where God is not being straight up? If He only took 6 days to create everything in the heavens and the earth, then He told us He did it in 6 days, how is that not truthful?