My Raisin Bread Challenge

[Bungle_Bear]

No my English is just fine

The rest of your post demonstrates that not to be the case

you are ultimately saying that God is not allowed to perform a miracle because that might confuse you even tho He specifically told you it was a miracle. Your saying that if God created raisin bread He is not allowed to do it by performing a miracle because when you look at it and examine it, it will appear to have taken longer than it actually did which is not a deception if He specifically told you that it was created by a miracle.

That is not what I am saying in any way. Are you sure your "English is just fine"? Just to be sure, please quote the text in the OP where God explains all of that.

Now if He created it and didn’t tell anyone it was a miracle that could be considered deceptive

Bingo!

but because He told you that it was a miracle then that changes our expectation of the appearance of the bread because it’s no longer required to appear to be as old as it actually is.

Here's your second chance to quote the text in the OP where God explains all of that.

Raisin bread made by a miracle is not required to look as old as it actually is. The fact that it is a miracle changes our expectations of how old it should look in comparison to how old it actually is.

Nice strawman. Perhaps you could address what I said next time?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The rest of your post demonstrates that not to be the case

That is not what I am saying in any way. Are you sure your "English is just fine"? Just to be sure, please quote the text in the OP where God explains all of that.

Bingo!

Here's your second chance to quote the text in the OP where God explains all of that.

Nice strawman. Perhaps you could address what I said next time?

That post was in reply to the statement about the earth appearing to be billions of years old not the OP. I made reference to the raisin bread as an analogy but the topic was the creation of earth.

How does that work when God's own Creation tells a completely different story? One that is billions of years in the making.

Unlike Nature, the Bible was not pinned by God, it was pinned by man.

That APPEARS TO BE billions of years in the making you mean.

Take that sentence and compare to the definition of deception I gave. Then tell us if there is a match.

The level of English comprehension among YECs is worrying.

No my English is just fine, you are ultimately saying that God is not allowed to perform a miracle because that might confuse you even tho He specifically told you it was a miracle. Your saying that if God created raisin bread He is not allowed to do it by performing a miracle because when you look at it and examine it, it will appear to have taken longer than it actually did which is not a deception if He specifically told you that it was created by a miracle. Now if He created it and didn’t tell anyone it was a miracle that could be considered deceptive but because He told you that it was a miracle then that changes our expectation of the appearance of the bread because it’s no longer required to appear to be as old as it actually is. Raisin bread made by a miracle is not required to look as old as it actually is. The fact that it is a miracle changes our expectations of how old it should look in comparison to how old it actually is.

So you see that my reply was in reference to the creation of the earth not the OP.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

That post was in reply to the statement about the earth appearing to be billions of years old not the OP. I made reference to the raisin bread as an analogy but the topic was the creation of earth.

You have that the wrong way round - the topic was raisin bread. You used the Genesis story as an analogy. Either way, the nub is the same - is making something appear to be older than it is while hiding that information from others deceptive? You and I both agreed that it is. Now you seem to be trying to backtrack.

So you see that my reply was in reference to the creation of the earth not the OP.

OK, so now you just need to quote the passage in Genesis where God says "Although I have only just created the Earth I gave it the appearance of being 4 billion years old." If he didn't say that, but instead led you to believe it is just 6,000 years old, he was being deceptive (using the generally accepted definition, not the YEC definition which you guys refuse to provide).

 

[AV1611VET]

OK, so now you just need to quote the passage in Genesis where God says "Although I have only just created the Earth I gave it the appearance of being 4 billion years old."

Hmmm.

God creates the earth on Day One, and by Day Six it is populated with everything from fish to man.

And you expect Him to say ... in writing ... that He gave it the appearance of being four billion years old?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Hmmm.

God creates the earth on Day One, and by Day Six it is populated with everything from fish to man.

And you expect Him to say ... in writing ... that He gave it the appearance of being four billion years old?

Sure. If he wants to leave fake evidence behind indicating the Earth is 4 billion years old, not 6,000 years old, and not be considered deceptive that would be the obvious thing to do. Do you think it just a minor detail that slipped his mind and he's been too embarrassed to let us know?

Of course, if you'd care to provide the YEC definition of deceptive that you use we could, perhaps, come to a different conclusion. Unfortunately, since the definition we appear to have agreed on is "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading" the conclusion must be that God was deceptive.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure. If he wants to leave fake evidence behind indicating the Earth is 4 billion years old, not 6,000 years old, and not be considered deceptive that would be the obvious thing to do.

You mean like raisins and warmth being left behind in a warm loaf of raisin bread, made to feed the poor?

I can see it now:

POOR VILLAGE: About to eat warn raisin bread.
BEAR: Wait! Don't eat that!
VILLAGE CHIEF: Why not?
BEAR: It's deceptive!

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You mean like raisins and warmth being left behind in a warm loaf of raisin bread, made to feed the poor?

I can see it now:

POOR VILLAGE: About to eat warn raisin bread.
BEAR: Wait! Don't eat that!
VILLAGE CHIEF: Why not?
BEAR: It's deceptive!

What fantasy land do you inhabit? Why would I stop hungry people eating unless the food was going to harm them?

Is this just another attempt to avoid admitting that your hero is less than perfect?

 

[AV1611VET]

What fantasy land do you inhabit?

Earth -- which is what academia is turning it into.

But the Bible gets in the way, doesn't It?

So academia has to either change every jot & tittle of It, or else try and convince others It contains misinformation.

In the meantime, academia will work to get the Bible and Its contents stricken from public property.

In essence, today's science can't progress until our morals are diminished.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Earth -- which is what academia is turning it into.

But the Bible gets in the way, doesn't It?

So academia has to either change every jot & tittle of It, or else try and convince others It contains misinformation.

In the meantime, academia will work to get the Bible and Its contents stricken from public property.

In essence, today's science can't progress until our morals are diminished.

You can't support any of that, can you? Your persecution complex isn't evidence of any of the above.

 

[AV1611VET]

You can't support any of that, can you? Your persecution complex isn't evidence of any of the above.

You think it's just coincidental that our morals took a plunge in the 60's, when prayer and the Bible came under fire?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You think it's just coincidental that our morals took a plunge in the 60's, when prayer and the Bible came under fire?

That's not really evidence of academia smashing the bible, but do you have a citation?

 

[dlamberth]

Would you see fraud in a loaf of warm raisin bread created instantly to feed the poor?

Feeding the poor and selling the loaf of bread as having history are two different things. I was only responding to the OP in my response of it being deceptive.

 

[dlamberth]

Hmmm.

God creates the earth on Day One, and by Day Six it is populated with everything from fish to man.

And you expect Him to say ... in writing ... that He gave it the appearance of being four billion years old?

The earth itself is telling us it's four billion years old. From the perspective of a Lover of God, God can't lie thus neither can the earth. The thing is those who are looking for a work around have to bring in deception by having God's Creation lie in order to make it work. Thus embedded age.

 

[Derf]

I thought your point was that in all the other cases that were presented they all began with something.

Yes, that's more normal from other miracles. Creation is different, as you pointed out, but only partially different. Man was formed of the earth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Either way, the nub is the same - is making something appear to be older than it is while hiding that information from others deceptive?

God hid that He made it appear to be older than it actually is? Ok so let me ask you this, can a planet in its 3rd day during the natural creation process support plant life? Can it support aquatic life on its 5th day of the natural creation process? Can it support animal and human life on it’s 6th day in the natural creation process? Can it even support life in it’s 6,000th year during the natural creation process? The answer to all of these is no. So by giving us this information He basically did tell us that it does in fact appear to be older than it actually is in comparison to the natural creation process.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The earth itself is telling us it's four billion years old. From the perspective of a Lover of God, God can't lie thus neither can the earth. The thing is those who are looking for a work around have to bring in deception by having God's Creation lie in order to make it work. Thus embedded age.

Please read post 75

 

[AV1611VET]

That's not really evidence of academia smashing the bible, but do you have a citation?

Don't worry about how I drive.

 

[AV1611VET]

Feeding the poor and selling the loaf of bread as having history are two different things.

The loaf of bread has no history.

 

[AV1611VET]

The earth itself is telling us it's four billion years old.

And how old does the raisin bread tell you it is?

 

[dlamberth]

Please read post 75

I stand by my post#76