My `homework` on Daniel`s 4 beasts.

[Marilyn C]

Yeah, just more false prophecy in the guise of pop culture end of the world teachings.

Easy words to say but I don`t see any scriptures to refute it.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Easy words to say but I don`t see any scriptures to refute it.

End Time Prophecy

 

[jgr]

I agree that the Lord is ruler over His Body of believers - a heavenly nation. However we still see that the Gentiles are being brought to the Lord`s footstool for Judgment. (Ps. 110: 1) Thus there is one more World Ruler to come.

Psalm 110
1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

"Enemies" includes both Jews and Gentiles who reject Messiah.


That occurred, and occurs, under the Ruler of the "fifth kingdom" beginning at Calvary:

Colossians 2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

 

[nolidad]

Yes, but not in the function of being the Antichrist, but as the little horn and beast.

Same person, differing titles to signify differing functions. He is the Antichrist and the 11th horn and the beast all the time! He is also the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition, the seed of teh serpent all the time! These and all other titles describe the person and what he does. They may not happen simultaneously, but it is still the same person.

 

[Running2win]

Yeah, just more false prophecy in the guise of pop culture end of the world teachings.

The Coming Day of the Lord

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[nolidad]

The first four World Rulers of Dan. 2 the great Image have all come and gone. They no more rule the world. God says there is one more World Ruler to come and its leader is the Assyrian from the region of Syria, Iraq & Jordan. (Isa. 31: 8)

The four beastly kingdoms of Dan. 7 are contemporary and operate at the same time. God knows perfectly who are the great powers of our time. To miss that is to relegate God to the past or distant future.

Not in the least. the language of Daniel can only lead one to conclude that the kingdoms are consecutive and not concurrent. Unless one rejects what and how the words are written.

We are living in the more compressed last days since May 14, 1948. Jesus gave us the signs of the general times from His walk on earth till today.

YOu must also remember these kingdoms are also tied to the times of the gentiles which Jesus said would continue until that time ends.

We can see history and see we are still lliving in one iteration of that terrible fourth beast.

When you take the statue of Daniel 2 and the vision of Daniel 7 and see them as two things describing the same events you come to this:

The head/lion is Babylon
The chest/lopsided bear is the Medes/Persian Empire
The waist/leopard white four wings is Greece under Alexander then the four kings after is death.

The fourth beast/legs and then feet with ten toes of iron/clay- is different from all the rest.

1.It is not named as any animal
2. It devours the WHOLE earth
3. It has ten horns
4. an eleventh horn arises and breaks off three.
5. This little horn will wear out the saints for a time, times and half a time (3 1/2 years)

Rome started a form of government that was different than all others- Imperialism!
Rome stayed united till the fourth century and broke into two with two separate capitols, Rome and Constantinople (the two thighs of the statue)

The Eastern division of Imperialism (Rome) from 364 to 1453 during the Turkish Invasion. The leaders fled to Russia and set up Russia as the Imperial form of Government

The Western division of Imperialism stayed with Rome from 364 to 476 when it shifted to France. Charlemagne named his empire "The Holy Roman Empire of teh Frankish Nation and it was imperialistic. Then in 962 OTTO 1 defeated France and set up teh Imperialistic "holy Roman EMpire of the German Nation. It stayed here until after WW1 when teh Imperialistic western leg settled with the. They may or may not shift again before the nextphase.

6. Next comes the one word government phase (the beast devouring the whole earth),
7. Then the ten kings or rulers
8. Then the 11th horn or antichrist who subdues three kings (REv. 5) and rules the world and then in teh last 3 1/2 years of teh 70th week of Daniel he seeks all out genocide against Christians and Jews.

This is not relegating God to anything but seeing these visions fulfilled exactly so far and then just giving the words of the passage that have yet to be fulfilled in these times of the Gentiles.

 

[Douggg]

He is the Antichrist and the 11th horn and the beast all the time!

No. No more so that JFK was president of the United States all his life.

Set the emotions to the side and think it through.

They may not happen simultaneously, but it is still the same person.

Think about what you wrote. That means the person is not the Antichrist and the beast all the time.

An analogy using JFK, in Revelation 13 JFK would be the president of the United States, no longer the Senator of Massachusetts.

in Revelation 13 XXXX would be the beast King of the Roman Empire, no longer the King of Israel the Antichrist.

___________________________________________________

XXXX starts out as the little horn, King of the Roman Empire.

Then XXXX becomes the prince who shall come.

Then XXXX becomes anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name, the Antichrist.

Then XXXX goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. Revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Jews reject him. End of XXXX's time as the Antichrist.

Then XXXX is killed and brought back to life.

The ten kings give their kingdom to XXXX to be the dictator King of the Roman Empire - the beast.

____________________________________________________

Nolidad, if we had the person's actual name, we could say that person is so-n-so (his name) all of the time.

But to say XXXX is the Antichrist, the beast, the little horn, the revealed man of sin, prince who shall come - all of the time. That is wrong.

 

[Richard T]

They were later treaties.
In 1944 we read how the 3 countries came under one name.

The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).

Then later they we part of the first commercial unity in Europe that led to the EU as we know today.


The 100-article Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, was signed on 18 April 1951 by "the inner six": France, West Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg (Benelux).


Cooperation among the governments of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg has been a firmly established practice since the introduction of a customs union in 1944 which became operative in 1948 as the Benelux Customs Union.


The Treaty of Paris (formally the Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community) was signed on 18 April 1951 between France, West Germany, Italy and the three Benelux countries (Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands), establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), which subsequently became part of the European Union.


Ref: from Wikipedia.

I think that everyone assumes the benelux nations gave up their individual rights when they joined together for a monetary union and later for a customs union. Those were separate arrangements from the When they all three individually joined the European Coal and Steel Community. This is why ther INDIVIDUAL nations had separate representation in the Euro Coal and Steel Community as I previously documented. Now you can force them into this count of 4 by including them together, but when you do stuff like that you could come up with any number, such as the example I gave that the US, Mexico and Canada could be counted as one, since they formed Nafta. Remember too that the early EU agreements were very limited. At any point, all are free to believe what they want. If this works for you, then that is great. Many of these end time assumptions are speculative. I have one of my own, that the ten kings in revelation are companies, not countries.

 

[nolidad]

No. No more so that JFK was president of the United States all his life.

Set the emotions to the side and think it through.

YOu forget that the Antichrist is the physical son of Satan and a woman! He is against Christ and another Christ from birth!

He counterfeits being teh son of God by his own supernatural birth, he performs counterfeit miracles, speaks counterfeit spiritual words that the world will hear and believe (thanks ot God forcing them to believe the lies). He has a counterfeit death and physical resurrection and is the second person of the counterfeit trinity

The Dragon-Satan-Father
The beast-antichrist-son
The False prophet-Holy Spirit. Sealing people with the mark which is a counterfeit seal.

Think about what you wrote. That means the person is not the Antichrist and the beast all the time.

An analogy using JFK, in Revelation 13 JFK would be the president of the United States, no longer the Senator of Massachusetts.

in Revelation 13 XXXX would be the beast King of the Roman Empire, no longer the King of Israel the Antichrist.

Well then it is up to you to prove biblical that the titles beast, antichrist, man of sin, son of perdition, are descriptions of offices held instead of describing the person!

XXXX starts out as the little horn, King of the Roman Empire.

Then XXXX becomes the prince who shall come.

Then XXXX becomes anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name, the Antichrist.

Then XXXX goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. Revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. Jews reject him. End of XXXX's time as the Antichrist.

Then XXXX is killed and brought back to life.

The ten kings give their kingdom to XXXX to be the dictator King of the Roman Empire - the beast.

XXXX starts as a political figure who goes out conquering and defeats three of the ten world rulers. (Rev. 6:2)
XXXX is one who signs a 7 year covenant with Israel.

He is the little horn! Just awaiting to show himself as the little horn!

He is a ruler of Rome either of Daniels, Jesus or the last days as far as geography goes.

Israel does not anoint him- that is a false teaching that you have learned from someone. You can't be a ruler who makes a covenant and then become the king. There is absolutely 0 in Scripture that the antichrist is from the line of David, nor is there any evidence that the ANtichrist is ever anointed King of Israel!

He is killed and resurrected at the midpoint of the trib period. That is when he violates the temple and declares all out genocide against Jews and christians. this is when Jews flee to the rock city of Petra!

 

[Running2win]

I like the simpler version that Rev 13 (leopard, bear, lion conglomeration) is the same geographical area of the kingdom/animals in the Book of Daniel, same people groups.

Notice these are individual animals showing these are historical. Notice the order in Daniel, one after the other the last being the leopard. This is important because out of the leopard the four kings come from, and out of one of these, the little horn (Dan 8).

In Revelation we have all animals together, showing they are a conglomerate of the former individual animals, a beast. Notice the leopard is described first and is the body, the biggest part of the beast. IMO, this shows the extent of the beast kingdom. And you can see where all these three named Empires are. They are all more East than Rome ever was.

So the nature of the last Empire with 10 horns will come from here, and these people groups. Notice the last map of religions of the people here. What do they all have in common. Islam.

My money is on the last 10 nation beast empire coming from the same area Daniel described, and it will be Islamic. He will have power through out the world-just like Islam does now, but his kingdom will be here. If he controlled everyone, people would not be fighting against him. Right?

 

[Marilyn C]

I think that everyone assumes the benelux nations gave up their individual rights when they joined together for a monetary union and later for a customs union. Those were separate arrangements from the When they all three individually joined the European Coal and Steel Community. This is why ther INDIVIDUAL nations had separate representation in the Euro Coal and Steel Community as I previously documented. Now you can force them into this count of 4 by including them together, but when you do stuff like that you could come up with any number, such as the example I gave that the US, Mexico and Canada could be counted as one, since they formed Nafta. Remember too that the early EU agreements were very limited. At any point, all are free to believe what they want. If this works for you, then that is great. Many of these end time assumptions are speculative. I have one of my own, that the ten kings in revelation are companies, not countries.

Hi Richard,

The 3 Benelux countries had a customs agreement in 1944, (Benelux Customs Union) and then when they joined the Treaty of Paris in 1951, they continued as a Customs union.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The Coming Day of the Lord

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

False prophecy in the guise of pop culture end time prophecy. Turning the multiple prophecies of the coming of the Lord and the day of the Lord. Of which there are many of in the Bible. Into a prophecy of the end of the world as we know it. Taking prophecies about the end times of the second covenant age 70 AD and then other prophecies about the end times of the age of the four gentile empires 1453 AD. When what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed. Then turning all those end time prophecies into a prophecy about the end of the world. In the mean time being completely blinded by that false prophecy so that one can’t see the 100 plus chapters of good news prophecy about this promised age we are now living in.

Isaiah 60: 3 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5 Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you. (ESV)
Isaiah 49:6 He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”...8 Thus said the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 49:6 He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”...8 Thus said the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages
Isaiah 42:Behold my servant, (the messiah) whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit on him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment to truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus said God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and give you for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Psalm 72:2 He shall judge your people with righteousness, and your poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear you as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations. 6 He shall come down like rain on the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. 7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endures. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. 9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. 12 For he shall deliver the needy when he cries; the poor also, and him that has no helper. 13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy. 14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight. 15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised. 16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth on the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. 17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. 18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only does wondrous things. 19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

 

[Marilyn C]

End Time Prophecy

Hi Daniel,

I see you have done much work as I read some of your notes. So can you tell me any proof that the beasts of Dan. 7 are the same as the World Rulers of Dan. 2, in the Great Image?

 

[Marilyn C]

Psalm 110
1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

"Enemies" includes both Jews and Gentiles who reject Messiah.


That occurred, and occurs, under the Ruler of the "fifth kingdom" beginning at Calvary:

Colossians 2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

So we agree that the first 4 World Rulers of Daniel`s great Image are - Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece & Rome. God judged them all. So what world Ruler represents the `divided kingdom?`

 

[Marilyn C]

Not in the least. the language of Daniel can only lead one to conclude that the kingdoms are consecutive and not concurrent. Unless one rejects what and how the words are written.

We are living in the more compressed last days since May 14, 1948. Jesus gave us the signs of the general times from His walk on earth till today.

YOu must also remember these kingdoms are also tied to the times of the gentiles which Jesus said would continue until that time ends.

We can see history and see we are still lliving in one iteration of that terrible fourth beast.

When you take the statue of Daniel 2 and the vision of Daniel 7 and see them as two things describing the same events you come to this:

The head/lion is Babylon
The chest/lopsided bear is the Medes/Persian Empire
The waist/leopard white four wings is Greece under Alexander then the four kings after is death.

The fourth beast/legs and then feet with ten toes of iron/clay- is different from all the rest.

1.It is not named as any animal
2. It devours the WHOLE earth
3. It has ten horns
4. an eleventh horn arises and breaks off three.
5. This little horn will wear out the saints for a time, times and half a time (3 1/2 years)

Rome started a form of government that was different than all others- Imperialism!
Rome stayed united till the fourth century and broke into two with two separate capitols, Rome and Constantinople (the two thighs of the statue)

The Eastern division of Imperialism (Rome) from 364 to 1453 during the Turkish Invasion. The leaders fled to Russia and set up Russia as the Imperial form of Government

The Western division of Imperialism stayed with Rome from 364 to 476 when it shifted to France. Charlemagne named his empire "The Holy Roman Empire of teh Frankish Nation and it was imperialistic. Then in 962 OTTO 1 defeated France and set up teh Imperialistic "holy Roman EMpire of the German Nation. It stayed here until after WW1 when teh Imperialistic western leg settled with the. They may or may not shift again before the nextphase.

6. Next comes the one word government phase (the beast devouring the whole earth),
7. Then the ten kings or rulers
8. Then the 11th horn or antichrist who subdues three kings (REv. 5) and rules the world and then in teh last 3 1/2 years of teh 70th week of Daniel he seeks all out genocide against Christians and Jews.

This is not relegating God to anything but seeing these visions fulfilled exactly so far and then just giving the words of the passage that have yet to be fulfilled in these times of the Gentiles.

I agree that the beast kingdoms are consecutive.

Now God has judged all the kingdoms of Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece & Rome. They are ALL judged and gone. There is NO world Ruler at the moment, (though one is forming).

So I ask you which do you see as the `most terrifying beast, that devours, breaks in pieces and tramples.` (Dan. 7: 7)? The EU or Islam.

 

[jgr]

So we agree that the first 4 World Rulers of Daniel`s great Image are - Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece & Rome. God judged them all. So what world Ruler represents the `divided kingdom?`

Where does the word "ruler" appear in the description of the vision in Daniel 2?

 

[Marilyn C]

I like the simpler version that Rev 13 (leopard, bear, lion conglomeration) is the same geographical area of the kingdom/animals in the Book of Daniel, same people groups.

Notice these are individual animals showing these are historical. Notice the order in Daniel, one after the other the last being the leopard. This is important because out of the leopard the four kings come from, and out of one of these, the little horn (Dan 8).

In Revelation we have all animals together, showing they are a conglomerate of the former individual animals, a beast. Notice the leopard is described first and is the body, the biggest part of the beast. IMO, this shows the extent of the beast kingdom. And you can see where all these three named Empires are. They are all more East than Rome ever was.

So the nature of the last Empire with 10 horns will come from here, and these people groups. Notice the last map of religions of the people here. What do they all have in common. Islam.

My money is on the last 10 nation beast empire coming from the same area Daniel described, and it will be Islamic. He will have power through out the world-just like Islam does now, but his kingdom will be here. If he controlled everyone, people would not be fighting against him. Right?

Hi Running2win,

I`m glad we agree on the location of the final Gentile World Ruler. It is very interesting to note the 10 kings.

3 - Syria, Iraq & Jordan. (Old Assyrian Empire & will be the power base of the A/C to come).
7. Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, & Saudi Arabia.

Note: Persia/Iran`s army (Shi-ites) will be knocked out with the Russian Army when God brings them down to the Golan Heights, (soon).

 

[Marilyn C]

Where does the word "ruler" appear in the description of the vision in Daniel 2?

`You, O King, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power and strength and glory, and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, he has given them into your hand, and has made you RULER over them all...` (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)

 

[jgr]

`You, O King, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power and strength and glory, and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, he has given them into your hand, and has made you RULER over them all...` (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)

Thanks; I overlooked that.

Re-read post 31 for the identity of the divided kingdom.

It was a single kingdom conprised of two constituents, a strong and a broken/brittle/fragile.

It was not divided into two kingdoms.

It was the fourth kingdom -- Rome.

 

[Marilyn C]

Thanks; I overlooked that.

Re-read post 31 for the identity of the divided kingdom.

It was a single kingdom conprised of two constituents, a strong and a broken/brittle/fragile.

It was not divided into two kingdoms.

It was the fourth kingdom -- Rome.

Hi jgr,

That`s fine. I miss things too.

Yes I did re-read your post 31 and agree that the `feet & toes,` are one kingdom. However I do not see that it is Rome. God judged that rulership as he did the others previously.