My `homework` on Daniel`s 4 beasts.

[Marilyn C]

The Arabs don't have the military power to enforce their will on the rest of the world. Nor any manufacturing capability.

The person who becomes the Antichrist has to be friendly toward Israel and a Jew. The muslim scenario is full of flaws. The Mahdi is something Islam came up with. It doesn't mean it has any sort of biblical validity.

The Islamic leader will come in by deception, (Dan. 8: 23 - 25)

 

[jgr]

We see 5 parts of the Great Image in Dan. 2 while in Dan. 7 there are 4 beasts.

Also Daniel says that the 4 beasts shall come, while he was actually standing in Babylon. (Dan.7 : 17)

Then we see that the 4th beasts treads down the others. (Dan.7: 7)

Finally the first 3 beasts have their dominion taken away but they continue for a while. (Dan. 7: 12)

All points to 4 contemporary great powers.

Confirmed by which recognized historical Christian scholars before the 19th century?

 

[Richard T]

Thank you Richard for your research. Now you do highlight the fact that the 3 countries came together (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) as a group called Benelux. I think that is sufficient to show it was part of the 4 Heads.

The following is from Wikipedia -

The Benelux Union (Dutch: Benelux Unie;[4] French: Union Benelux;[5] Luxembourgish: Benelux-Unioun),[6] also known as simply Benelux, is a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation of three neighbouring states in western Europe: Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg.[7] The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).[8] It is now used more generally to refer to the geographic, economic, and cultural grouping of the three countries.

Cooperation among the governments of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg has been a firmly established practice since the introduction of a customs union in 1944 which became operative in 1948 as the Benelux Customs Union. (end of quote)

Now a leader of a nation is often referred to as a `head.` So too those who run organisations. It refers to leaders.

The Benelux countries formed their own separate agreement, just the three of them. Then individually they also later helped found the European Steel and Coal Community. In the European Agreements, including the treaty of Paris and Treaty of Rome. they had separate representation.

In simpler terms, consider the U.S. Mexico and Canada as one in their NAFTA agreement. Now they also are members of the U.N. Are they counted as one member? No, they are counted as three nations. That is the same with the Benelux nations. You never listed your source for your information, but they are playing fast and loose with the numbers. I was just trying to point out that technically, counting the Benelux as one is wrong when it comes to their wider European agreements.

 

[jgr]

We see 5 parts of the Great Image in Dan. 2 while in Dan. 7 there are 4 beasts.

Also Daniel says that the 4 beasts shall come, while he was actually standing in Babylon. (Dan.7 : 17)

Then we see that the 4th beasts treads down the others. (Dan.7: 7)

Finally the first 3 beasts have their dominion taken away but they continue for a while. (Dan. 7: 12)

All points to 4 contemporary great powers.

In each chapter, four, and no more, kingdoms are described.

The word "shall" does not appear in the verse 17 Hebrew. Fulfillment was already in progress.

Daniel 7:7 does not state that the fourth kingdom, Rome, treads down the others. Daniel 7:19 describes Rome as being diverse from the others, which it was. Daniel 7:23 states that Rome would devour, trod down, and break in pieces the whole earth, which consisted of the preceding Grecian empire. This it did.

Every kingdom continued vestigially for a time after being conquered. Complete conquests did not occur overnight.

All four kingdoms are confirmed by their historical Scriptural fulfillments.

As acknowledged by virtually all recognized historical Christian scholars before the 19th century.


Daniel 2
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Daniel 7
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And note I did use scriptures and not newspapers. Look to see you do the same.

Really? Consider what you wrote:

"Without controversy and well documented, the bear is the national symbol of the Soviets. It was not by accident that this was the emblem chosen for the Moscow Olympics. A friendly and loveable little bear to be sure. Daniel, however, records it as a ferocious beast devouring much flesh.

Chronically the U.S.S.R was the second great power to arise in current end-time contention. It fits perfectly with the second confederacy of Daniel`s vision. It certainly `devoured` country after country, incorporating them into one monolithic dominion - behind the iron curtain."

I see that you did NOT quote Scripture where God has definite bear as Soviet? It was your speculation. Not God's interpretation. Do you honestly think God was talking about the Soviets here?!

The answer is, of course NOT!

 

[Running2win]

The Arabs don't have the military power to enforce their will on the rest of the world. Nor any manufacturing capability.

The person who becomes the Antichrist has to be friendly toward Israel and a Jew. The muslim scenario is full of flaws. The Mahdi is something Islam came up with. It doesn't mean it has any sort of biblical validity.

Well, it would not be a total Arab coalition. I believe Turkey and Iran will go at it (per Daniel 8), and then Turkey will probably take Saudi Arabia. So all that oil money can buy a lot.

Although the beast has power in all areas of the world, everyone won't follow him. The kings of the East for one. How much power he will have over America remains to be seen too. The key thing he will have is the oil fields of the Mideast. IMO, that will draw China into the mix (per Revelation).

 

[Marilyn C]

Confirmed by which recognized historical Christian scholars before the 19th century?

mmmm Do you realise that we are in the 21st Century? And the Lord told us that He sent His Holy Spirit `to guide us into all truth.` (John 16: 13)

Has the Body of Christ come to all truth of Christ and His purposes? (Eph. 4: 13) No we haven`t. And thus we need to listen and learn from the Holy Spirit who clarifies and reveals what is in His word.

So I encourage you to put on your running shoes and enter the 21st century with all of what the Holy Spirit has brought forth over the past century.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Benelux countries formed their own separate agreement, just the three of them. Then individually they also later helped found the European Steel and Coal Community. In the European Agreements, including the treaty of Paris and Treaty of Rome. they had separate representation.

They were later treaties.
In 1944 we read how the 3 countries came under one name.

The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).

Then later they we part of the first commercial unity in Europe that led to the EU as we know today.


The 100-article Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, was signed on 18 April 1951 by "the inner six": France, West Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg (Benelux).


Cooperation among the governments of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg has been a firmly established practice since the introduction of a customs union in 1944 which became operative in 1948 as the Benelux Customs Union.


The Treaty of Paris (formally the Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community) was signed on 18 April 1951 between France, West Germany, Italy and the three Benelux countries (Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands), establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), which subsequently became part of the European Union.


Ref: from Wikipedia.

 

[Marilyn C]

In each chapter, four, and no more, kingdoms are described.

I think you have missed out the `divided kingdom.`

 

[Marilyn C]

Really? Consider what you wrote:

"Without controversy and well documented, the bear is the national symbol of the Soviets. It was not by accident that this was the emblem chosen for the Moscow Olympics. A friendly and loveable little bear to be sure. Daniel, however, records it as a ferocious beast devouring much flesh.

Chronically the U.S.S.R was the second great power to arise in current end-time contention. It fits perfectly with the second confederacy of Daniel`s vision. It certainly `devoured` country after country, incorporating them into one monolithic dominion - behind the iron curtain."

I see that you did NOT quote Scripture where God has definite bear as Soviet? It was your speculation. Not God's interpretation. Do you honestly think God was talking about the Soviets here?!

The answer is, of course NOT!

News only CONFIRMS what God has prophesied. I think you need to actually look at what God is doing today and not just in history. The Holy Spirit has been sent to guide us into all truth. (John 16: 13) And the Holy Spirit has not finished yet.

 

[jgr]

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I think you have missed out the `divided kingdom.`

Daniel 2
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

It was still a single "the kingdom".

The fourth kingdom, not the fifth kingdom.

The "fourth kingdom" appears in Daniel 2:40 and Daniel 7:23.

The "fifth kingdom" appears nowhere in the book of Daniel, nor in the entirety of Scripture.

 

[jgr]

mmmm Do you realise that we are in the 21st Century? And the Lord told us that He sent His Holy Spirit `to guide us into all truth.` (John 16: 13)

Has the Body of Christ come to all truth of Christ and His purposes? (Eph. 4: 13) No we haven`t. And thus we need to listen and learn from the Holy Spirit who clarifies and reveals what is in His word.

So I encourage you to put on your running shoes and enter the 21st century with all of what the Holy Spirit has brought forth over the past century.

Did the Holy Spirit guide the historical scholars into all fallacy?

There is copious, indisputable, and overwhelming historical, archaeological, and anthropological evidence supporting the historical scholars' Scriptural understanding of Daniel's four kingdoms.

There is no evidence of dispensationalism's futurized kingdoms.

Speculation, presumption, and conjecture do not qualify as evidence.

They are evidence only of dispensational delusion.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I was asked on another thread to do my homework on certain questions regarding Daniel`s 4 beasts. I thought they were good questions and need a thread of their own for discussion.

The questions given to me are in bold print.


What are the four winds of the heaven represent?

God`s word tell us who the 4 winds of heaven are -

`These are 4 spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth.` Zech. 6: 5)

Note winds and spirits are the same word in Hebrew - `rumach,` meaning, wind by resemblance of breath, spirit.



What does the great sea represent?

God says - ``the wicked are like the troubled sea.` (Isa. 57: 20)

The Bible names all four of those empires. It Interprets its own prophecy. even tells you when the last of the four will end if you know where to look. Anything outside of that is just wrong and damaging to the cause of Christ.
End Time Prophecy

 

[nolidad]

I was asked on another thread to do my homework on certain questions regarding Daniel`s 4 beasts. I thought they were good questions and need a thread of their own for discussion.

The questions given to me are in bold print.


What are the four winds of the heaven represent?

God`s word tell us who the 4 winds of heaven are -

`These are 4 spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth.` Zech. 6: 5)

Note winds and spirits are the same word in Hebrew - `rumach,` meaning, wind by resemblance of breath, spirit.



What does the great sea represent?

God says - ``the wicked are like the troubled sea.` (Isa. 57: 20)

Why is the fourth beast dreadful and terrible?

This kingdom devours, breaks in pieces and tramples the others. Thus I see that it is dreadful and terrible. To overcome these other great powers this last Federation must be horrific.

Why is it different from first beasts?

`a fourth beast....it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.` (Dan. 7: 7)

This last Federation is different because it `shall devour the whole earth, trample it and it it in pieces.` (Dan. 7: 23) The other Federations did not do this but kept to their region.


What do the ten horns represent?

`The 10 horns are 10 kings who shall arise from this kingdom.` (Dan. 7: 24)

God`s word tells us that the Assyrian shall fall when the Lord returns over Jerusalem. (Isa. 31: 4 - 8) This is, I believe the leader of the last Federation - Islam. The ancient area of Assyria is Syria, Iraq & Jordan. I believe those 3 countries will be the power base of this Islamic leader. Later 7 other `kings` will join and that will be the 10 king Federation.


(Syria, Iraq, Jordan & Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia)

Or you can accept the fact that the vision of the beasts corresponds to the vision of the Statue and see that the lion is also the head which was Nebuchadnezzar.

The bear lifted on one side was the Medeo-Persian Empire (chest of silver) which Persia was the dominant force. The three ribs most likely represent teh three empires or kingdoms they conquered to become the dominat power -Lydia, Egypt and Babylon!

The Leopard with four wings was Alexander the Great and the Grecian Empire!(loins of brass) As the Medes and Persians conquered by sheer force and numbers, Alexander conquered with swiftness and speed. After Alexanders death, the Empire was broken up intro four separate kingdoms under four separate rulers.

Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander and Lysimachus.

The fourth beast is different and has been in rule since they took over for Greece (thighs of iron and feet of iron and clay). It started as Imperialism with Rome and still rules in the times of the Gentiles as Jesus said in Matt. 24!

Rome broke into 2 (the east-west breakup of the empire) The west moved its capitol from Rome to Germany to France, Spain and now resides with the Imperial govts. of England and the U.S.

The east stayed at Constantinople and remained until it moved to Moscow! The next phase is the one world govt. phase which will fail, then the ten rulers who cede world authority to the Antichrist!.

This matches history to a tee, keeps Jerusalem under gentile control as Jesus said while we are still in the times of the Gentiles and brings us all the way to the return of Jesus in both Neb. dream and Daniels vision!

 

[nolidad]

The Arabs don't have the military power to enforce their will on the rest of the world. Nor any manufacturing capability.

The person who becomes the Antichrist has to be friendly toward Israel and a Jew. The muslim scenario is full of flaws. The Mahdi is something Islam came up with. It doesn't mean it has any sort of biblical validity.

Actually the Antichrist is going to be a ruler of the people who came and destroyed the sanctuary! Rome!

He is going to be the seed of Satan and of a woman from teh Empire of Rome. Whether it is Rome of Daniels day, Jesus' day or of the end we do not know, but he will be as the antichrist born naturally and supernaturally.

 

[Douggg]

Actually the Antichrist is going to be a ruler of the people who came and destroyed the sanctuary! Rome!

Yes, but not in the function of being the Antichrist, but as the little horn and beast.

 

[Marilyn C]

Daniel 2
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

It was still a single "the kingdom".

The fourth kingdom, not the fifth kingdom.

The "fourth kingdom" appears in Daniel 2:40 and Daniel 7:23.

The "fifth kingdom" appears nowhere in the book of Daniel, nor in the entirety of Scripture.

Let`s count together. Dan. 2 the Great Image.

1. Head - Babylon (Judged by God and no more World Ruler, Dan. 5: 30 & 31)
2. Chest & Arms - Medes & Persians. (Judged by God and no more World Ruler)
3.Belly & Thighs - Greece - (Judged by God and no more World Ruler)
4. Legs - Rome (Judged by God and no more World Ruler)

5. Feet & toes - Divided kingdom (Still to come and be World Ruler)

This is the same kingdom as described in Dan. 7: 7. (which we agree on)

 

[Marilyn C]

Did the Holy Spirit guide the historical scholars into all fallacy?

There is copious, indisputable, and overwhelming historical, archaeological, and anthropological evidence supporting the historical scholars' Scriptural understanding of Daniel's four kingdoms.

There is no evidence of dispensationalism's futurized kingdoms.

Speculation, presumption, and conjecture do not qualify as evidence.

They are evidence only of dispensational delusion.

People are human and make mistakes. No one is infallible! You need to get your head out of the past and really see what God is doing today.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Bible names all four of those empires. It Interprets its own prophecy. even tells you when the last of the four will end if you know where to look. Anything outside of that is just wrong and damaging to the cause of Christ.
End Time Prophecy

In Dan. 2 the Great Image there are 5 World Rulers. Four have come and gone and are mentioned in God`s word. The 5th World Ruler has yet to arise. The leader is called the Assyrian, from the area of Syria, Iraq & Jordan. (Isa. 31: 8) That will be from the Federation of Islam.

The four beastly kingdoms of Dan. 7 are contemporary with the final beast eventually ruling over the others and the whole earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Or you can accept the fact that the vision of the beasts corresponds to the vision of the Statue and see that the lion is also the head which was Nebuchadnezzar.

The bear lifted on one side was the Medeo-Persian Empire (chest of silver) which Persia was the dominant force. The three ribs most likely represent teh three empires or kingdoms they conquered to become the dominat power -Lydia, Egypt and Babylon!

The Leopard with four wings was Alexander the Great and the Grecian Empire!(loins of brass) As the Medes and Persians conquered by sheer force and numbers, Alexander conquered with swiftness and speed. After Alexanders death, the Empire was broken up intro four separate kingdoms under four separate rulers.

Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander and Lysimachus.

The fourth beast is different and has been in rule since they took over for Greece (thighs of iron and feet of iron and clay). It started as Imperialism with Rome and still rules in the times of the Gentiles as Jesus said in Matt. 24!

Rome broke into 2 (the east-west breakup of the empire) The west moved its capitol from Rome to Germany to France, Spain and now resides with the Imperial govts. of England and the U.S.

The east stayed at Constantinople and remained until it moved to Moscow! The next phase is the one world govt. phase which will fail, then the ten rulers who cede world authority to the Antichrist!.

This matches history to a tee, keeps Jerusalem under gentile control as Jesus said while we are still in the times of the Gentiles and brings us all the way to the return of Jesus in both Neb. dream and Daniels vision!

The first four World Rulers of Dan. 2 the great Image have all come and gone. They no more rule the world. God says there is one more World Ruler to come and its leader is the Assyrian from the region of Syria, Iraq & Jordan. (Isa. 31: 8)

The four beastly kingdoms of Dan. 7 are contemporary and operate at the same time. God knows perfectly who are the great powers of our time. To miss that is to relegate God to the past or distant future.