My `homework` on Daniel`s 4 beasts.

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Yes Satan lied to Eve, and was held responsible for killing both Adam and Eve. He was not cast out of heaven at that time. Jude says that Angels were bound. However those angels have been engaged in spiritual warfare, or other angels have also joined Satan's side since the Garden of Eden.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
verse 6 indicates that they were summoned. "came to present themselves before the Lord"

You believe that when you leave this world, you will be going to heaven, right? Do you think you will be entering a situation whereby Satan and his third of the angels will be raising hell there in the third heaven where the throne of God is?

Where was Satan in Revelation 4-6, as the book was opened? He is not there. Satan is not in the third heaven any longer, ever since he sinned.

Whatever the angels were doing whether summoned or not , has no bearing on the fact that Satan went before the Lord in the third heaven where you say He has no entrance.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Before is the key word. It means in front of or in the presence of or before the face of,. So the war in heaven took place in the third heaven. That is the Bible! We either form our opinions based on Scripture or we have our opinions and them twist Scripture to try to make them conform to our opinions.

You cannot find a verse to defend your position that Satan was kicked out of the third heaven when He sinned, which occurred After his creation in the six days and before the events of Genesis 3.

Once again having opinions that contradict the plain reading of Scripture is dangerous.

And for your information. Satan is not omnipresent. He is a created being and can only be at one place at one time. So your argument of where is Satan in REv. 4-6 is completely irrelavent. Satan has access to the thrid heaven, but that does no t mean he is there 24/7
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
1 John 3:1-3

1 Behold, what love the Father hath given to us, that we should be called the sons of God: For this cause this world knoweth you not, because it knoweth not him.
2 Dearly beloved, now are we the sons of God, but yet it is not made manifest what we shall be: and we know that when he shall be made manifest: we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purgeth himself, even as he is pure.

And this has something to do with the fact angels had sex with women in Gen. 6 how????? Id s it because we are called the sons of God?

Does that mean in Job 1 people were going before the Lord in heaven?

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

In the OT the term "sons of God" bene Elohim) occurs exactly three times and all three times it refers to angels.

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


First I have heard the arguments that teh "sons of God" here mean the sons of seth or the anointed line and the daughters were the line of Cain. this is false for these reasons:

1 They wouldn't be too godly if they married ungoldly women.

2. How would a godly line marrying an ungodly line (being unequally yoked) produce the nephilim or watchers the mighty men were "gibbowr" which are men of valor men of renown (shem) men of note or fame (or infamy).

Now godly men had been entering the daughters of men since Seth so who are these guys????

The only answer is to follow th use of bene elohim in the OT and accept them as angels who left their first estate.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Private interpretation. Matthew 22:29-32

29 Yeshua answered them, “The reason you go astray is that you are ignorant both of the Tanakh and of the power of God.
30 For in the Resurrection, neither men nor women will marry; rather, they will be like angels in heaven.
31 And as for whether the dead are resurrected, haven’t you read what God said to you,
32 ‘I am the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov’? He is God not of the dead but of the living!”

How can the angels have a relationship with humans if they cannot with themselves? And in heaven that relationship no longer exist according to Jesus. This is conspiracy level interpretation. The harlot church has squashed the truth and no one is bold enough to state the obvious. Adam was a son of God. Adam's fallen offspring were physically different because of a sin nature. Other sons of God still had biological functions. Genesis 1:27-28

27 So G-d created humankind in His own tzelem, in the tzelem Elohim (image of G-d) created He him; zachar (male) and nekevah (female) created He them.

28 And G-d blessed them, and G-d said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The sons of God were both male and female and plural (many). Adam was one, until he disobeyed God. The Atonement of the Lamb is the restoration back to being a son of God. 1 John 3:1-3.

The first estate of the angels are stars. Genesis 1:16
16 And Elohim made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; He made the kokhavim (stars) also.

Then Job 38:7
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Two created beings: morning stars and sons of God. That is all. Angels and humans.

They do not have babies with each other. In heaven, no one has babies any more.

Well let us answer these one by one.

1. First you accusation of me privately interpreting Matt. 22. The only thing the passage says is that angels do not have sex in heaven. PERIOD! it does not say the cannot have sex, just they do not! Any more is supposition.

Also it would be a grievous sin if they did! All the angels (AFAWK) are male so it would be an act of angelic homosexuality if they did!

2. The stars in Genesis 1:16 you say are the angels. But the context is that they ar the luminenscent points of light in the sky we call stars. So if you demand that these stars in the context of lights in the earth sky are angels, when did God make the stars???

3. Job 38:7 So it is your opinion that the term sons of God in the OT are human men.

Job 1:6
King James Version

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.


So according to your doctrine, long after Adam fell, long after the Garden of Eden was closed to men, humans went to the third heaven to present themselves before the Lord!

Now I agree 100% that when the term stars is used symbolically, it is referring to angels (or fallen angels).

But the beings in Jude are not part of the 1/3. they are of a different sin. They di dnot join Satan in his rebellion but came into the daughters of men and had the nephilim, the gibbowr, and the shem.

4. I also am not sure what you mean by the first estate of angels is stars. a straighfroward reading of that would suggest that you are saying that the angels are the luminescent bodies in the night sky!

or if you mean that angels estate is the second heaven, then you err in that you forget that i heaven are 10,000X10,000 and thousands of thousands of angels in the third heaven.

Jude 6
King James Version

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

There is no SCripture that says angels live in the second heaven.
There is no Scripture that says the angels that rebelled with satan are the angels of Jude.
There is no Scripture that says angels never could have sex with women.

Let us look at Genesis 6 again :

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

It came to pass: means after a time.

Did seth and cain and others think women were ugly before????? Or did they not see they were pretty??? When did all this occur that godly men took according to the line that yo u and others seem to propose- that the ungodly women were pretty?

Were godly women ugly?

How does man to woman intercourse lead to the nephilim? The Gibbowr? the shem?

You have to add supposition after supposition to make your opinion concur with the few simple statements here in the bible.


YOu posted Job 38:7

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

How could men shout for joy when God laid down the corner stone of the foundations of the earth? We were created after that!

As for stars singing?

Psalm 19
King James Version

19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

The sons of God were both male and female and plural (many). Adam was one, until he disobeyed God. The Atonement of the Lamb is the restoration back to being a son of God. 1 John 3:1-3.

At the beginning there was only Adam and Eve and no one else on earth! Male and female created He them refers to Adam and Eve not to whole bunches of people. If you are saying God created multiple men and multiple women, then you are opening up the Bible to all sorts of accusations of deceiving people. YOu also have to say that Adam made everyone a sinner who was created with Him and they had no choice in the matter.

The harlot church has squashed the truth and no one is bold enough to state the obvious. Adam was a son of God. Adam's fallen offspring were physically different because of a sin nature. Other sons of God still had biological functions. Genesis 1:27-28

Well I have no idea who you are talking abou there. Even rome believes Adam is a son of God. Yes all of us since adam (the first human) sinned inherited a sin nature! I know of only a few very fringe sects that say that men are born sinless without a sin nature.

So you believe in a multiple creation of perfect human beings. Where are th e offspring of all the others who were not in the garden of eden and did not face the test Adam and eve did? Are you saying Adam and Eve lost biological functions? which ones? None oare listed in Sripture so where did you get all this info?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
And this has something to do with the fact angels had sex with women in Gen. 6 how????? Id s it because we are called the sons of God?

Does that mean in Job 1 people were going before the Lord in heaven?

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

In the OT the term "sons of God" bene Elohim) occurs exactly three times and all three times it refers to angels.

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


First I have heard the arguments that teh "sons of God" here mean the sons of seth or the anointed line and the daughters were the line of Cain. this is false for these reasons:

1 They wouldn't be too godly if they married ungoldly women.

2. How would a godly line marrying an ungodly line (being unequally yoked) produce the nephilim or watchers the mighty men were "gibbowr" which are men of valor men of renown (shem) men of note or fame (or infamy).

Now godly men had been entering the daughters of men since Seth so who are these guys????

The only answer is to follow th use of bene elohim in the OT and accept them as angels who left their first estate.
Yes the offspring of the sons of God also rebelled. What is so hard to see? Angels cannot have babies period. Not with themselves nor with humans. You are placing conspiracy theories above the word of God. That is what Satan did with Eve. He gave her conspiracy theories about obeying God. Are you saying Adam was the only son of God that could rebel against God? Humans are the fallen corruptible spiritually dead sons of God, because of being Adam's descendants. We are not angels. We are sons of God. Angels are not sons of God, they are created as stars. They can take on human form, but they cannot become sons of God, nor have babies period. Angels are not biological. They are not even spirits. They appear as stars in the sky. Or they have any form God sends them to earth as.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,268.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Whatever the angels were doing whether summoned or not , has no bearing on the fact that Satan went before the Lord in the third heaven where you say He has no entrance.
I wrote...

"Satan and his third of the angels do not have access to the third heaven unless summoned by God."

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Before is the key word. It means in front of or in the presence of or before the face of,. So the war in heaven took place in the third heaven. That is the Bible! We either form our opinions based on Scripture or we have our opinions and them twist Scripture to try to make them conform to our opinions.

Satan accusing from the border between the second heaven and the third heaven.
You cannot find a verse to defend your position that Satan was kicked out of the third heaven when He sinned, which occurred After his creation in the six days and before the events of Genesis 3.
Do you think God created the primordial world of the dinosaurs, having many violent creatures like Tyrannosaurus Rex, to be that way? Or that Satan and his angels got into gene engineering making the primordial world full of violence?

Once again having opinions that contradict the plain reading of Scripture is dangerous.
I think you are talking about your own ideas.

And for your information. Satan is not omnipresent. He is a created being and can only be at one place at one time. So your argument of where is Satan in REv. 4-6 is completely irrelavent. Satan has access to the thrid heaven, but that does no t mean he is there 24/7
You are saying Satan is in the third heaven before the face of God (the text actually says before God) accusing people day and night. day and night is not 24/7 ? So according to you he would have been there.

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Their place was not in the third heaven, but the second heaven. Next step down is earth and its atmosphere.



 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,316
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,857.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
could men shout for joy when God laid down the corner stone of the foundations of the earth? We were created after that!
It was the first 6 days. Not even one week, when the stars and sons of God rejoiced in the creation. Read Genesis 2. Eve was taken out of Adam. Eve was not the females created on day six. Are you calling God a liar claiming God did not create multiple males and multiple females at the same time? You are turning literal words into symbolism and applying that spiritual application to Adam and Eve. When God clearly points out that Eve was taken from Adam, never created. Your spiritual application is not only taken out of context, but changes the text of chapter 2 drastically.

Adam was a son of God that shouted for joy at the foundation of the world. Eve was taken out of Adam at a much later time.

Yes in Job there are some sons of God. Those who did not rebel, that formed a council with God. Are they the 24 elders? I don't know. Job and Genesis is about the only OT books that even declare sons of God, until after Paul pointed out that there were two Adams. The implication being in Christ we can be restored to the full image of God. That is being a son of God. A righteous soul, an incorruptible body, a glorified spiritual being. A son of God. If a son of God rebels, does that allow them to have a physical relationship with Adam's descendants? Or does trying to have such a relationship cause them to loose son of God status?

Whatever happened God decided enough was enough. The Flood destroyed them. How is this conspiracy or changing God’s Word? Calling the sons of God angels is changing God’s Word. Claiming Eve was created on the 6th day is changing God's Word. We know that God created two rational beings, angels and humans. God calls them stars and sons of God in Job and Genesis. We know angels can think, because Satan and a third rebelled. We know humans can think, even knowing we used to be sons of God, before Adam disobeyed. Humans can also make stuff up. Meaning they are independent thinkers and not being controlled externally. Satan and some other angels can also think. What they cannot do is change God's creation without explicit permission from God. Humans can change the physical creation by their will, but it is limited. They cannot destroy themselves, contrary to the notion of AGW. They have hardly killed that many with covid19, if we are being honest. When war breaks out soon, and God lets death, famine, plagues, and wild beast start killing humans, then we should be completely awake and ready for the soon return of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,268.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
nolidad, different issue. Aren't you supposed to be a dispensationalist?

Then why do you say "all false religions" as the woman riding the beast - instead of the
ecumenical church like Clarence Larkin?

upload_2020-8-27_0-52-47.png
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0