My Genesis 1 Bottleneck Event Challenge

[Aman777]

Wrong again. Let's drop the Bible. Let's just go over the science and why we know that we are evolved beings. Please, no false claims about others. That is not a very Christian activity.

Okay, IF you can tell us HOW God's superior intelligence got inside Apes, as Evols force teach our little children in the Public Schools. Waiting....

 

[VirOptimus]

Okay, IF you can tell us HOW God's superior intelligence got inside Apes, as Evols force teach our little children in the Public Schools. Waiting....

Aa science is silent on the possibility of god(s) this is a lie.

 

[juvenissun]

There are many things that can go wrong with human bodies. The more of them you have, the shorter you'll live. There is no reason at all to think the overall level of bad stuff in our DNA has increased over time.

the Bible says human life was shortened significantly at much earlier time. That is a very good reason to think about it.

 

[lesliedellow]

You posted:
USincognito said: ↑
I voted no because we would find a bottleneck event in Gen. 6-9, not in Gen. 1.



Here's the verse:

Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Where's the bottleneck? Noah was married and so were his 3 sons. After the flood, Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry, so they married and produced children with the some ONE Million prehistoric people alive when the Ark arrived. IOW, your notion that Gen 6:9 speaks of a bottleneck is REFUTED Scripturally. Try again?

Ah. So everybody except Noah and his family were killed in the flood, only they weren't, because Noah's grandsons would have been a bit short of wives otherwise.

Yep. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[sfs]

the Bible says human life was shortened significantly at much earlier time. That is a very good reason to think about it.

The Bible says that in the context of saying lots of other things that didn't happen. That's a very good reason to think it didn't happen.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Ah. So everybody except Noah and his family were killed in the flood, only they weren't, because Noah's grandsons would have been a bit short of wives otherwise.

Yep. Makes perfect sense to me.

..... That and ALL of the animals perished (i.e. reason for the Ark, no??), so why was an Ark needed if all the other millions survived had their animal food sources too?

 

[Aman777]

Ah. So everybody except Noah and his family were killed in the flood, only they weren't, because Noah's grandsons would have been a bit short of wives otherwise.

Yep. Makes perfect sense to me.

Amen, you got it. Everybody on Adam's Earth died when Adam's firmament sank in Lake Van, Turkey 11k years ago. ON the SAME Day, the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat according to HISTORY and Genesis 8:4.

Noah's grandsons were inside their mamas and daddys in the Ark. When they grew up, there were NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced descendants with the sons of God (prehistoric people who evolved from water) and today, there are some 7.4 Billion of us. Our God is an awesome God. God Bless you

 

[Aman777]

..... That and ALL of the animals perished (i.e. reason for the Ark, no??), so why was an Ark needed if all the other millions survived had their animal food sources too?

Adam's entire firmament, which God called Heaven, was only miles in diameter. It had only 4 rivers which all came from the same source. Gen 2:10 The flood was only 15 cubits deep (22.5 feet) when it covered the highest mountains on Adam's small flat Earth. Gen 7:20 All the animals died except those on the Ark which saved the common ancestors Jesus had made with His own Hands.

Lake Van is an enclosed Lake with NO outlets and home of only one kind of fish. It is a mile high in the mountains of Ararat, 75 miles wide and some 1500 feet deep. The firmament sank in the Lake releasing the 450 ft Ark into our world. That's God's Truth Scripturally.

 

[lesliedellow]

Noah's grandsons were inside their mamas and daddys in the Ark. When they grew up, there were NO other Humans (descendants of Adam) to marry. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced descendants with the sons of God (prehistoric people who evolved from water) and today, there are some 7.4 Billion of us. Our God is an awesome God. God Bless you

Oh sure. Sea creatures managed to somehow transform themselves into fully functioning human beings within the space of a few decades. Creationists can swallow that sort of nonsense when it suits them, and yet not the evolution which really happened.

 

[Aman777]

Oh sure. Sea creatures managed to somehow transform themselves into fully functioning human beings within the space of a few decades. Creationists can swallow that sort of nonsense when it suits them, and yet not the evolution which really happened.

No. Noah's children were not sea creature but direct descendants of Adam, the common ancestor of ALL Humans. Adam, the first Human, was unique in that he was made with an intelligence like God's, Gen 3:22 since his kind is destined to rule the world after Jesus returns. Gen 1:28

The Lie of evolution is caused by godless men trying to eliminate God from His Own Creation. They made a terrible mistake by forgetting about the flood and in the last days must answer for their evil forced teaching of their incomplete ToE. A special more terrible fate awaits those who offend little ones who believe in Jesus. Mar 9:42

 

[PsychoSarah]

Do you see a bottleneck event in Genesis 1?

No, bottleneck events are when a population of organisms suddenly has a large portion of them die, causing a measurable reduction in variety. There are various potential causes of such bottlenecks, one that comes to mind to me is how disease created one in humans during the Bubonic plague.

If you are referring to the creation of life on this planet in Genesis, that would be the opposite of a bottleneck, as it would be a massive increase in the diversity of life.

 

[lesliedellow]

No. Noah's children were not sea creature but direct descendants of Adam, the common ancestor of ALL Humans. Adam, the first Human, was unique in that he was made with an intelligence like God's, Gen 3:22 since his kind is destined to rule the world after Jesus returns. Gen 1:28

The Lie of evolution is caused by godless men trying to eliminate God from His Own Creation. They made a terrible mistake by forgetting about the flood and in the last days must answer for their evil forced teaching of their incomplete ToE. A special more terrible fate awaits those who offend little ones who believe in Jesus. Mar 9:42

Make up your mind. Either the "sons of God", who supposedly married Noah's kids, were evolved from marine life, or they weren't. Creationists invariably trip over themselves when they are dreaming up ad hoc hypotheses which have neither scientific nor biblical basis.

 

[juvenissun]

The Bible says that in the context of saying lots of other things that didn't happen. That's a very good reason to think it didn't happen.

No. It is a very poor reason.

A believer should use faith to guide knowledge, not to use knowledge to guide faith. Otherwise, he is not a believer.

 

[sfs]

No. It is a very poor reason.

A believer should use faith to guide knowledge, not to use knowledge to guide faith. Otherwise, he is not a believer.

Your opinion is noted.

 

[juvenissun]

Your opinion is noted.

You have excellent knowledge in genetics. Please use it to explore the "myths" said in the Bible. Do not use it to dismiss them.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Oh sure. Sea creatures managed to somehow transform themselves into fully functioning human beings within the space of a few decades. Creationists can swallow that sort of nonsense when it suits them, and yet not the evolution which really happened.

A few decades? I think you misunderstand Aman777. He's the only creationist I know that views the universe as older than modern scientific conclusions (as far as I can remember, he believes it to be 21 billion years old). From my understanding, he views that humans were created and placed in a specific, small protective area separate from the planet Earth itself. Like how my bearded dragons are in tanks that keep them warm and unable to move around the rest of the house. As far as I can tell, the "prehistoric peoples" Aman talks about, from his perspective, have a separate origin from "true humans" and never experienced Noah's flood at all. Rather, they evolved normally or, perhaps, were guided into evolving as close to human as the natural process can get, but they would never reach "true human" intelligence via this process. The "protective tank" that the "true humans" lived in was dissolved as it was dunked into a lake, causing the inhabitants to experience the flood. This is also why this was the first time rain was experienced in this tank, as holes began to form as it dissolved the barriers, referred to as "firmament" and the water flooded into the submerged "tank". Once this "tank" fully dissolved and the ark landed, Noah and his family found no other humans left. As a result, when it came time for Noah's grandsons to want to start families, they had to settle for Neanderthals and other "prehistoric peoples" that were not as smart as them, but were physically compatible for breeding. It is through this hybridization that modern humans get their intelligence, as well as genetic ties to organisms such as chimpanzees. Through independent genetic lines.

I think this summarizes Aman777's views, though he is free to correct me if I got parts incorrect.

 

[Aman777]

A few decades? I think you misunderstand Aman777. He's the only creationist I know that views the universe as older than modern scientific conclusions (as far as I can remember, he believes it to be 21 billion years old). From my understanding, he views that humans were created and placed in a specific, small protective area separate from the planet Earth itself. Like how my bearded dragons are in tanks that keep them warm and unable to move around the rest of the house. As far as I can tell, the "prehistoric peoples" Aman talks about, from his perspective, have a separate origin from "true humans" and never experienced Noah's flood at all. Rather, they evolved normally or, perhaps, were guided into evolving as close to human as the natural process can get, but they would never reach "true human" intelligence via this process. The "protective tank" that the "true humans" lived in was dissolved as it was dunked into a lake, causing the inhabitants to experience the flood. This is also why this was the first time rain was experienced in this tank, as holes began to form as it dissolved the barriers, referred to as "firmament" and the water flooded into the submerged "tank". Once this "tank" fully dissolved and the ark landed, Noah and his family found no other humans left. As a result, when it came time for Noah's grandsons to want to start families, they had to settle for Neanderthals and other "prehistoric peoples" that were not as smart as them, but were physically compatible for breeding. It is through this hybridization that modern humans get their intelligence, as well as genetic ties to organisms such as chimpanzees. Through independent genetic lines.

I think this summarizes Aman777's views, though he is free to correct me if I got parts incorrect.

Thanks Sarah. Like the Image on my posts, which was produced by an Atheist, you too have a better understanding of my views than anyone else here. God Bless you

 

[PsychoSarah]

the Bible says human life was shortened significantly at much earlier time. That is a very good reason to think about it.

Adam and Eve lived longer due to consuming the fruit of life. There is no reason to conclude that this kept them free of mutation. Mutation alone is not what causes people to age. In fact, your DNA could experience absolutely no mutations, and there would still be a limit on how many times your DNA could be replicated. This is because every time your DNA replicates the lagging strand, thanks to an imperfect process, the copy is shorter than the original strand by a bit. At the very ends of DNA are telomeres, repeating bits of nonsense that have no function other than to be disposable and put off how long it takes for the DNA copies to get so much shorter that function is impaired.

Having longer telomeres correlates with longer life. Thankfully, due to the presence of telomerase, which repairs telomeres, gametes do not get shorter telomeres as they divide and are produced. However, the rest of our cells are not so lucky. There is notable variation in telomere length between people as well.

There is also the matter of metabolism. Higher metabolism is associated with wear and tear on cells. This is why hedgehogs live 2-5 years, and echidnas can live up to 50 years, despite them being similarly sized animals. Echidnas are highly resistant to the damaging effects of stress on the body and have very low metabolisms for mammals.

So, alternate proposal for creationists: The fruit from the tree of life helped repair DNA from its own replication process or rendered cell replication unnecessary, and gaining the knowledge from the forbidden fruit did make Adam and Eve smarter, at the cost of a higher metabolism. Adding on the stresses humans had to experience outside of Eden, and human lifespan began to fall. When Yahweh said no one would live beyond 120 years anymore, the deity wasn't limiting how long people could live, but rather was just making a statement that telomeres had gotten so short, and stresses so high, that humans just wouldn't make it that long. Either through divine intervention or thanks to mutation, humans began to produce sufficient telomerase for gametes as to not make each successive generation shorter-lived than the previous.

Just an idea.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Thanks Sarah. Like the Image on my posts, which was produced by an Atheist, you too have a better understanding of my views than anyone else here. God Bless you

Out of curiosity, do you think that the "protective tank" Noah lived in prior to the flood orbited the planet like the moon, or just floated suspended over a specific area?

This, with the middle sphere representing the world of Noah (not to scale, this wouldn't fit in a lake).

Or more like this, suspended consistently over the same area, with the firmament around it, high enough that nothing below could reach it.

Either way, I think that'd make for an interesting view.

 

[juvenissun]

So, alternate proposal for creationists: The fruit from the tree of life helped repair DNA from its own replication process or rendered cell replication unnecessary, and gaining the knowledge from the forbidden fruit did make Adam and Eve smarter, at the cost of a higher metabolism.
Just an idea.

Irrelevant thought.

It is similar to guess the early earth must have a lot of free oxygen because today we see a lot of tree and grass on the surface.

Read the Revelation: In the Heaven, there are a lot of Trees of Life. What are they for? Read it.