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My Genesis 1 Bottleneck Event Challenge

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by AV1611VET, Aug 14, 2017.

  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    66.7%
  3. A What???

    16.7%
  1. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Make an entire post covering Revelations sometime. It will be great.


    Should be really easy to find, then.


    Check your math, good sir. If each day is 4.5 billion years, even if the aging of the universe started at the third day, that would make the universe measure as being between 9 and 13.5 billion years old (youngest if time started at the end of the 3rd "day", oldest if time started immediately at the start of the 3rd day). A bit short of 13.8. 300 million years is nothing to scoff at.

    Since there was no time before the Big Bang, the concept of "before" doesn't really apply.




    Doesn't really work if a large portion of your family and friends aren't going to heaven with you. This would apply to me if I converted. My grandmother, my sister, and my fiance would be left behind. Heck, those are the family members I like the most. Would I abandon them to go for a joyful eternity? In a heartbeat, but I'd never stop feeling terrible knowing they and so many others were left behind.




    XD plants are great, but perfect they are not. My "ironic hell" would have me cultivating a grove of manchineel trees. They produce excretions so toxic that you'll get chemical burns from being hit by rain running off of the tree and through its leaves. One bite of their deadly "apples" grants you a number of gastrointestinal horrors that, if left untreated, could result in death. Namely, bleeding in your stomach and intestines. People can't even get rid of them by burning them, because the smoke coming off of the burning wood can cause blindness and severe enough lung irritation to put people in the hospital. Try to cut it down and leave it to rot? The sap is powerful enough to remove the paint from cars. If plants could be evil, this species would qualify.

    As for roses as big as basket balls, tree peonies are the closest I can think of to that. Not actually roses, but they have somewhat of a resemblance to them. Although, there are a few plants that produce flowers that dwarf basketballs. I mean, there is a corpse flower that has a diameter of 3 feet.
    [​IMG]


    -_- it's not a choice, though. It's based on belief, which someone cannot just choose to have. I know that all too well. Furthermore, when given the choice between burning away and living eternally but without being able to do their favorite things, how many people do you actually think would choose to burn? No, people who don't want to burn would be forced to because they didn't believe in the right god, and people that imagined a different sort of heaven for themselves would be stuck with the reality that doesn't meet their expectations.
     
  2. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    But people inside the Heaven can deliver medicine to people at the outside.
     
  3. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Then why haven't they?
     
  4. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    I guess they have. We have no way to know it here.
     
  5. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Sure there would be. People with dead Christian relatives would get healed a lot supernaturally.
     
  6. Aman777

    Aman777 Christian

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    Amen, and the point is what you have to believe. Do you know what it is you MUST believe in order to inherit Heaven? AND not be left behind in total darkness Mat 22:13 in a burned out hulk of a Universe? Most people don't know. I've asked many online but they don't seem to know what it is specifically that one must believe in order to get to Heaven.
     
  7. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    You misunderstand. The place "outside" of Heaven is much much larger than just the earth. And the current earth would have no role in that place. That particular verse in the Revelation does not talk about the current earth.
     
  8. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    My general understanding is that, from a Christian standpoint, one has to believe in the Christian god and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Since I don't believe in any gods, I obviously don't qualify, but if a person got crucified with the intent of saving people, including myself, from our sins and allowing us to get into a good afterlife, I wouldn't refuse.
     
  9. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    I need quotes demonstrating that.
     
  10. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    There is no need of any quoting. The only thing you need to think about is that the Heaven HAS a boundary. The Revelation also says: people in the Heaven (the Holy City) DO go in and out of the City.
     
  11. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    I have doubts about your claim that the bible is referring to any other planet aside from Earth in any of its verses, or that modern day Earth explicitly has no relevance to heaven as per scripture. The best way to defend your claim is to quote portions of the bible that support your theological claim. It's up to you to defend your claim or not, but my view that you need to support your claims will remain regardless as to what you do.


    Then quote the parts of the bible that say as much. I am not going to read all of Revelations again to seek out the quotes on your behalf.
     
  12. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    If I have my doctrine right, there is going to be a New Heavens and a New Earth coming.

    Hovering over the Earth is going to be a 1500x1500x1500-mile city, New Jerusalem by name, where either the Jews or the Christians will predominantly live (I can't remember which).

    The Jews will have access to the Earth ... and the Christians will have access to New Jerusalem ... by a road known as the King's Highway (or King's High Way).

    Ezekiel 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

    Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
    8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
    9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
    10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

    (Notice the reference to dinosaurs [dragons] there? They're coming back!)
     
  13. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Define "bottleneck".
     
  14. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    As pertains to this challenge, it is a time when the population was at an all-time low, insofar as recovery could only occur if the robustness of the population is such that it can overcome extinction.
     
  15. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    In Genesis 1, was the population at an all time low?

    I mean, even after Noah's flood, there were more than two people, right?
     
  16. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Yes. It consisted of just Adam & Eve.
    Eight, to be exact.

    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
     
  17. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    And was the population robust enough to overrcome extinction?

    *Looks around, see humans*

    I'd say that's a yes.

    Therefore, according to your definitions, the answer to your question is yes, there was a bottleneck event in Genesis 1.
     
  18. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    Are they all inbred depressed? why not?
    I'd say that's a no. It's more like a modified founder effect.
    What was that event, specifically?
     
  19. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    So that's a yes.


    No, they aren't.

    Why? (Hint: it never happened.)

    Wait, what?

    How do you get a no?

    You said that a bottleneck event can be defined with two criteria: population at an all time low, and it needed to survive extinction. If these two criteria are met, then it was a bottleneck.

    The population WAS at an all time low, and it did survive. It meets your criteria, so it is a bottleneck event according to YOUR definition.

    If it was the founder effect as you claim, then we should see a reduction of genetic variation. However, since there was no "before" with which to compare, it can't be claimed that the genetic variation was reduced.

    So, yeah, it was a bottleneck.

    God starting off with two people when he could have created a population of thousands or even millions.
     
  20. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Now you know why I called it a "modified founder effect," don't you?

    There was no reduction in population -- just the opposite.

    The population started out as one person, then it doubled, then it took off from there.
     
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