My Genesis 1 Bottleneck Event Challenge

Do you see a bottleneck event in Genesis 1?


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PsychoSarah

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It's what surrounds us and keeps the terrible Light/Energy of the 3rd Heaven from destroying us. Exo 33:20 Adam's firmament was under WATER. Gen 1:6-8 Our's is in the DUST or Earth without form. The 3rd Heaven is in the Air, which shows it has NO bounds. In the beginning God made the air, dust and water and everything which exists in the physical world is made of these creation elements.


I know. That is WHY God "warns" us of our terrible fate IF we miss Heaven. He describes this destruction of our world, as the Lake of Fire.
Make an entire post covering Revelations sometime. It will be great.


Adam's firmament, which contained Adam's Earth, was brought to the present world BEFORE the flood, and after the windows on high were opened, it rained for 40 days and nights before the 450 ft Ark left the ground of Adam's world. Gen 7:17 On the 150th Day after the rain began, the Ark was above the highest mountains on Adam's Earth. Gen 7:20-24 On the SAME 150th day, the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. Gen 8:4 The solid firmament sank releasing the 450 ft Ark into our world. Adam's Earth/ground was "clean dissolved" Isa 24:19 in the water and the bottom half of the firmament is STILL at the bottom of the Lake.
Should be really easy to find, then.


It's because our Cosmos was not made until the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 which was some 13.8 Billion years ago in man's time.
Check your math, good sir. If each day is 4.5 billion years, even if the aging of the universe started at the third day, that would make the universe measure as being between 9 and 13.5 billion years old (youngest if time started at the end of the 3rd "day", oldest if time started immediately at the start of the 3rd day). A bit short of 13.8. 300 million years is nothing to scoff at.

There were 2 other Days/Ages BEFORE the big bang of our Cosmos. That's WHY the bottom of the firmament is so valuable. It was made BEFORE the big bang on another world.
Since there was no time before the Big Bang, the concept of "before" doesn't really apply.



Not mine since Jesus told us:

Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I want Life more abundantly, not existence.

Doesn't really work if a large portion of your family and friends aren't going to heaven with you. This would apply to me if I converted. My grandmother, my sister, and my fiance would be left behind. Heck, those are the family members I like the most. Would I abandon them to go for a joyful eternity? In a heartbeat, but I'd never stop feeling terrible knowing they and so many others were left behind.




I too, am a lover of plants, but since they are perfect apart from this terrible world, it wouldn't be heaven without them. I want Roses as big as Basketballs.
XD plants are great, but perfect they are not. My "ironic hell" would have me cultivating a grove of manchineel trees. They produce excretions so toxic that you'll get chemical burns from being hit by rain running off of the tree and through its leaves. One bite of their deadly "apples" grants you a number of gastrointestinal horrors that, if left untreated, could result in death. Namely, bleeding in your stomach and intestines. People can't even get rid of them by burning them, because the smoke coming off of the burning wood can cause blindness and severe enough lung irritation to put people in the hospital. Try to cut it down and leave it to rot? The sap is powerful enough to remove the paint from cars. If plants could be evil, this species would qualify.

As for roses as big as basket balls, tree peonies are the closest I can think of to that. Not actually roses, but they have somewhat of a resemblance to them. Although, there are a few plants that produce flowers that dwarf basketballs. I mean, there is a corpse flower that has a diameter of 3 feet.
ancient_chinese_tree_peony_garden_luxuriant_pink_002.jpg



That's WHY God gave us all a Free Choice, to live forever with Him in Paradise or to stay in the burned out universe of today. He knows that we must spend Eternity somewhere, but warns us against making the wrong choice. The adrenaline junkies won't like Hell since it's being alone forever, with self. God Bless you
-_- it's not a choice, though. It's based on belief, which someone cannot just choose to have. I know that all too well. Furthermore, when given the choice between burning away and living eternally but without being able to do their favorite things, how many people do you actually think would choose to burn? No, people who don't want to burn would be forced to because they didn't believe in the right god, and people that imagined a different sort of heaven for themselves would be stuck with the reality that doesn't meet their expectations.
 
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Aman777

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-_- it's not a choice, though. It's based on belief, which someone cannot just choose to have. I know that all too well. Furthermore, when given the choice between burning away and living eternally but without being able to do their favorite things, how many people do you actually think would choose to burn? No, people who don't want to burn would be forced to because they didn't believe in the right god, and people that imagined a different sort of heaven for themselves would be stuck with the reality that doesn't meet their expectations.

Amen, and the point is what you have to believe. Do you know what it is you MUST believe in order to inherit Heaven? AND not be left behind in total darkness Mat 22:13 in a burned out hulk of a Universe? Most people don't know. I've asked many online but they don't seem to know what it is specifically that one must believe in order to get to Heaven.
 
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juvenissun

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Sure there would be. People with dead Christian relatives would get healed a lot supernaturally.

You misunderstand. The place "outside" of Heaven is much much larger than just the earth. And the current earth would have no role in that place. That particular verse in the Revelation does not talk about the current earth.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Amen, and the point is what you have to believe. Do you know what it is you MUST believe in order to inherit Heaven? AND not be left behind in total darkness Mat 22:13 in a burned out hulk of a Universe? Most people don't know. I've asked many online but they don't seem to know what it is specifically that one must believe in order to get to Heaven.
My general understanding is that, from a Christian standpoint, one has to believe in the Christian god and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Since I don't believe in any gods, I obviously don't qualify, but if a person got crucified with the intent of saving people, including myself, from our sins and allowing us to get into a good afterlife, I wouldn't refuse.
 
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PsychoSarah

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You misunderstand. The place "outside" of Heaven is much much larger than just the earth. And the current earth would have no role in that place. That particular verse in the Revelation does not talk about the current earth.
I need quotes demonstrating that.
 
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juvenissun

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I need quotes demonstrating that.

There is no need of any quoting. The only thing you need to think about is that the Heaven HAS a boundary. The Revelation also says: people in the Heaven (the Holy City) DO go in and out of the City.
 
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PsychoSarah

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There is no need of any quoting.
I have doubts about your claim that the bible is referring to any other planet aside from Earth in any of its verses, or that modern day Earth explicitly has no relevance to heaven as per scripture. The best way to defend your claim is to quote portions of the bible that support your theological claim. It's up to you to defend your claim or not, but my view that you need to support your claims will remain regardless as to what you do.


The only thing you need to think about is that the Heaven HAS a boundary. The Revelation also says: people in the Heaven (the Holy City) DO go in and out of the City.
Then quote the parts of the bible that say as much. I am not going to read all of Revelations again to seek out the quotes on your behalf.
 
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AV1611VET

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Then quote the parts of the bible that say as much. I am not going to read all of Revelations again to seek out the quotes on your behalf.
If I have my doctrine right, there is going to be a New Heavens and a New Earth coming.

Hovering over the Earth is going to be a 1500x1500x1500-mile city, New Jerusalem by name, where either the Jews or the Christians will predominantly live (I can't remember which).

The Jews will have access to the Earth ... and the Christians will have access to New Jerusalem ... by a road known as the King's Highway (or King's High Way).

Ezekiel 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

(Notice the reference to dinosaurs [dragons] there? They're coming back!)
 
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AV1611VET

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Define "bottleneck".
As pertains to this challenge, it is a time when the population was at an all-time low, insofar as recovery could only occur if the robustness of the population is such that it can overcome extinction.
 
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Kylie

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As pertains to this challenge, it is a time when the population was at an all-time low, insofar as recovery could only occur if the robustness of the population is such that it can overcome extinction.

In Genesis 1, was the population at an all time low?

I mean, even after Noah's flood, there were more than two people, right?
 
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AV1611VET

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In Genesis 1, was the population at an all time low?
Yes. It consisted of just Adam & Eve.
Kylie said:
I mean, even after Noah's flood, there were more than two people, right?
Eight, to be exact.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 
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Kylie

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Yes. It consisted of just Adam & Eve.

And was the population robust enough to overrcome extinction?

*Looks around, see humans*

I'd say that's a yes.

Therefore, according to your definitions, the answer to your question is yes, there was a bottleneck event in Genesis 1.
 
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AV1611VET

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And was the population robust enough to overrcome extinction?

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Kylie said:
*Looks around, see humans*
Are they all inbred depressed? why not?
Kylie said:
I'd say that's a yes.
I'd say that's a no. It's more like a modified founder effect.
Kylie said:
Therefore, according to your definitions, the answer to your question is yes, there was a bottleneck event in Genesis 1.
What was that event, specifically?
 
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Kylie

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Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


So that's a yes.


Are they all inbred depressed? why not?

No, they aren't.

Why? (Hint: it never happened.)

I'd say that's a no. It's more like a modified founder effect.

Wait, what?

How do you get a no?

You said that a bottleneck event can be defined with two criteria: population at an all time low, and it needed to survive extinction. If these two criteria are met, then it was a bottleneck.

The population WAS at an all time low, and it did survive. It meets your criteria, so it is a bottleneck event according to YOUR definition.

If it was the founder effect as you claim, then we should see a reduction of genetic variation. However, since there was no "before" with which to compare, it can't be claimed that the genetic variation was reduced.

So, yeah, it was a bottleneck.

What was that event, specifically?

God starting off with two people when he could have created a population of thousands or even millions.
 
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AV1611VET

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If it was the founder effect as you claim, then we should see a reduction of genetic variation. However, since there was no "before" with which to compare, it can't be claimed that the genetic variation was reduced.
Now you know why I called it a "modified founder effect," don't you?

There was no reduction in population -- just the opposite.

The population started out as one person, then it doubled, then it took off from there.
 
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