My Abraham Challenge

[Alla27]

God would not have me do any of those things.

Did God reveal this to you?

 

[-57]

I have a question. Let's say I killed your relative. Let's say I ask judge to forgive me. Let's say judge forgave me. It calls "mercy". Where is justice?
I have another question: if God is merciful but NOT just what kind of God is this?

You're talking the difference between a human judge and God the judge.

Romans 9:15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Can a Human judge say that?

 

[Alla27]

O

You're talking the difference between a human judge and God the judge.

Romans 9:15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Can a Human judge say that?

k, let's say I killed someone. I ask God to forgive me Let's say God forgave me. God is Mercy. Isn't God Justice also? If He forgives me where is Justice?

 

[-57]

do you?

Pretty much.

really? who says this?

The bible. Lazarus was saved..rich man, not so much.

Also...Hebrews 11

 

[-57]

O

k, let's say I killed someone. I ask God to forgive me Let's say God forgave me. God is Mercy. Isn't God Justice also? If He forgives me where is Justice?

His justice is in the cross where you sins were imputed to Jesus.

 

[Alla27]

Pretty much.


The bible. Lazarus was saved..rich man, not so much.

Also...Hebrews 11

So, if you say that God forgave Lazarus for all his sins before Christ's death then God robbed justice. Can God rob justice?

 

[Alla27]

His justice is in the cross where you sins were imputed to Jesus.

how does this apply to all those who died before Christ and were forgiven according to you?

 

[miknik5]

It varies.

Suppose a friend does something that hurts you and asks your forgiveness. If he offers restitution, what would you expect of him before you forgive him? It varies.

But I know one thing you would not do. You would not tell him that, if he wants your forgiveness, he must kill your son. You would not tell him, that after he has killed your son, then you could forgive him.

But somehow we are to believe that God could not forgive us until his son was killed. That makes no sense.

It does make sense
We needed the RIGHT COVERING in HIS PRESENCE

 

[-57]

So, if you say that God forgave Lazarus for all his sins before Christ's death then God robbed justice. Can God rob justice?

It's not what I said...it's what the bible said. I presented you with an example of salvation prior to Christ sacrificial death on the cross.

In one sense you're correct...the Old Testament saints sins were covered...when Jesus blood washed them clean their sins were removed.

 

[Alla27]

It's not what I said...it's what the bible said. I presented you with an example of salvation prior to Christ sacrificial death on the cross.

In one sense you're correct...the Old Testament saints sins were covered...when Jesus blood washed them clean their sins were removed.

So, if their sins were removed only after death of Christ then they were NOT forgiven. If Lazarus's sins were washed away only at Christ's death then he was not forgiven before that. If you have your sins that are NOT washed you are still guilty.

 

[miknik5]

With all the discussion about killing, remembervwfat HOD said. Every man will have to give an account for the blood they have shed of every man or animal

 

[-57]

So, if their sins were removed only after death of Christ then they were NOT forgiven. If Lazarus's sins were washed away only at Christ's death then he was not forgiven before that. If you have your sins that are NOT washed you are still guilty.

Then according to you everyone who died prior to the cross...are lost.

 

[Alla27]

Then according to you everyone who died prior to the cross...are lost.

No. But ALL of them would be lost forever(JUSTICE) without the atonement of Christ. They could be forgiven ONLY IF someone atoned for them.
So, after Christ washed their sins they could be forgiven IF they accepted Christ as their Savior and repented. The same with all those who lived, live and will live after Christ's atonement.

 

[doubtingmerle]

God was praising Abraham for being ready to give his son to Him.

If by "give his son" do you mean "kill"?

It will do no good to find spin. Raising the knife with the intention of plunging it down into your sons chest is intended murder.

According to your spin, were the 9/11 terrorists "giving up the plane" to God? No! No! No! They were murdering.

So let's cut with the spin that says intending to murder your son is the same as tending to give your son. Murder is murder. Call it that.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It's hard to argue with someone who doesn't undertand biblical forgiveness. For example many were forgiven prior to Christ death.

Ok, so Christ didn't need to die for our sins? We could have accomplished the same thing by killing cows?

I also noticed you seem to keep forgetting that the wages of sin against God is eternal death.

You seem to be forgetting that if God is in charge, he can pay whatever he wants. Is your God not in charge? Is he not the one that determines our wages? I would think a loving God could set a reasonable pay scale. And I don't see how killing God's son makes it easier for God to be more generous in his wages.

Also we should forgive someone who hurts us even if they don't offer restitution.

It varies.

If your brother steals everything you have and leaves you starving to death and homeless, would you fully forgive him and restore him to full fellowship, asking him to return nothing? If your brother was capable of returning most of what he stole, I would think that would be a condition to full forgiveness.

 

[doubtingmerle]

God would not have me do any of those things.

Wait, what?

That is my point! You are plagarizing my point!

If a loving God exists, he would not ask us to rape, pillage or murder. Thus a loving God would not ask Abraham to kill his son.

Secondly, they have nothing to do with what God asked Abraham to do.

Get with the program, please.

I didn't write that in response to God and Abraham. I wrote that in response to what you said. You said you would murder people if you were confident God was commanding it. Would you also rape people if you were confident God was commanding it? I see you evade the question.

I do not evade that question. If I was confident God was commanding me to do an immoral thing, then I would not do that immoral thing.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I have a question. Let's say I killed your relative. Let's say I ask judge to forgive me. Let's say judge forgave me. It calls "mercy". Where is justice?

And what should the judge do? Bring his son into the court, wait for somebody to kill his son, and then announce that now we have both justice and mercy? Is that what should happen in your story?

I would think that this would constitute neither true justice nor true mercy.

In America we try to have both justice and mercy. We have laws that say if you kill somebody, you will pay the price. We also have laws that say that if there are situations in which mercy should be applied, such as a child who did not understand what he was doing, then we allow for some mercy while still asking for some form of justice. It doesn't always work out like it should, but at least we grasp the need for both justice and mercy, and make reasonable attempts at it.

I have another question: if God is merciful but NOT just what kind of God is this?

If God exists, I would hope that he would be both merciful and just, like we try in our country to be both merciful and just.

But killing an innocent son has nothing to do with either mercy or justice. And killing Isaac would have had nothing to do with either mercy or justice.

 

[miknik5]

No. But ALL of them would be lost forever(JUSTICE) without the atonement of Christ. They could be forgiven ONLY IF someone atoned for them.
So, after Christ washed their sins they could be forgiven IF they accepted Christ as their Savior and repented. The same with all those who lived, live and will live after Christ's atonement.

Where would GOD's justice be if when CHRIST died, HE did not descend and by THE SPIRIT, go back to preach to those held captive in captivity who died before THE PROMISE had come

Shouldn't those in captivity have had the chance to hear HIM?

HE did take back the keys to hades and death when, in that one time event, HE led captivity captive in HIS train

For no man could precede HIM

If HE, by THE SPIRIT did not go back(wards) to redeem that generation who had not benefitted by HIS physically coming into the world, where is God's righteous justice in withholding the TRUTH from that generation by not going back(wards) to redeem all those who had lived before HIS FIRST coming?

 

[miknik5]

It is not justice to kill another human being. And all will give an account for the blood of any man

 

[miknik5]

Either we are covered
Or we are not covered

By HIS BLOOD

Which, of course, does not justify us from doing what is wrong

I dont know how to be subtle in this. but either we are marked by HIS BLOOD or the guilt of HIS BLOOD will be upon us (and our children)