My Abraham Challenge

[doubtingmerle]

I will say it again. All the rituals and temple practices pointed to and spoke of HIS SON

Have your ever even read all the rituals and temple practices in the OT?

Take for instance:

and the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull to the tent of meeting,
and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is in the tent of meeting before the LORD; and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the door of the tent of meeting.
And all its fat he shall take from it and burn upon the altar.
Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
And he shall carry forth the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly. (Lev. 4:15-21)
​

What do you learn when you read this?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Because GOD is HOLY and man is not and GOD can not stand in the presence of sin.

How does killing his son make it possible for God to forgive, if he cannot forgive otherwise?

 

[miknik5]

Have your ever even read all the rituals and temple practices in the OT?

Take for instance:

and the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull to the tent of meeting,
and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is in the tent of meeting before the LORD; and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the door of the tent of meeting.
And all its fat he shall take from it and burn upon the altar.
Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
And he shall carry forth the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly. (Lev. 4:15-21)
​

What do you learn when you read this?

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins and all things are cleansed by the blood of a spotless offering

 

[miknik5]

How does killing his son make it possible for God to forgive, if he cannot forgive otherwise?

what do you think one understands when they hear the GOSPEL as it should be heard?

When Peter preached the GOSPEL there was a noted visible and emotional cut to the heart response

 

[doubtingmerle]

what do you think one understands when they hear the GOSPEL as it should be heard?

I think they understand that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

My question is why Christ needed to die for our sins for God to forgive us. I can forgive people without first requiring a blood sacrifice. Why cannot God do the same as me?

If you say there is a basic principle that God cannot change that requires holy beings have a blood sacrifice before they can forgive, then who or what made that rule? If the person or thing that made that rule forces God to have a blood sacrifice then that person or thing is greater than God.

But if you say God could change the rule, but chooses not to, then all you are saying is that God chooses not to forgive sins until somebody kills his Son. And I wander why God would choose such a thing when he does not need to.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I'm waiting for that verse and you said GOD commanded someone to kill....HIS SON

I thought you were talking about THE SON OF GOD, meaning JESUS

I didn't say there was a verse telling us to kill Jesus. I said there is a verse in Genesis that commands Abraham to kill his son, Isaac.

There is no command for us to kill Jesus.

Just curious, according to your faith, if nobody had killed Jesus, would salvation even be possible?

 

[miknik5]

I think they understand that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

My question is why Christ needed to die for our sins for God to forgive us. I can forgive people without first requiring a blood sacrifice. Why cannot God do the same as me?

If you say there is a basic principle that God cannot change that requires holy beings have a blood sacrifice before they can forgive, then who or what made that rule? If the person or thing that made that rule forces God to have a blood sacrifice then that person or thing is greater than God.

But if you say God could change the rule, but chooses not to, then all you are saying is that God chooses not to forgive sins until somebody kills his Son. And I wander why God would choose such a thing when he does not need to.

There is a basic principle:

The knee buckling heart rending revelation of the GIFT OF GOD's LOVE and GRACE most visibly manifest in HIS SON whom HE sent for the very will and purpose of GOD as a covering for our sins

GOD is HOLY and required the ONE and ONLY WAY back into HIS HOLY PRESENCE...HIS SON

And THIS WAY was known and planned from the beginning showing that GOD from the abundance of HIS GRACE even from the beginnng even knowing our fall from the beginning created us knowing we would fall and knowing that at the fullness of time HE would send HIS SON to do for man what man could not do for himself by providing THE WAY back through , by and in HIS SO. who opened the WAY back through HIS BODY that all who want to enter in must enter in by THE TRUE VEIL which is HIS BODY

 

[Alla27]

But what you forgot to mention is that it was a test to see if Abraham was willing to do something that would be morally wrong for you and I to do.

What is morally right and what is morally wrong? Did Abraham know? Yes, he did know that. Abraham knew that TO OBEY God is ALWAYS morally right. Abraham knew that to disobey God is ALWAYS morally wrong. What you think is morally wrong or what I think is morally wrong wouldn't be important for a man like Abraham. Abraham made a COVENANT with God to OBEY Him ALWAYS. To obey God is morally right no matter what. Abraham knew that if God commands to kill Isaak it is NOT because God hates Abraham or Isaak but because there is something that God KNOWS and him (Abraham) does not know YET.

And according to Genesis 22 Abraham demonstrated that he would go to the point where he would do something I consider morally wrong for anybody, he would go to the point where he would

God was the authority for Abraham. Abraham made a COVENANT with God TO OBEY Him. If God says: "do not kill this person" it is morally right not to kill. If God says: "kill this person" it is morally right to kill. God sets standards of morality, not His children who MADE A COVENANT with God.
What Abraham did was morally right in eyes of God. Your eyes or my eyes are irrelevant.

 

[Alla27]

God tells Abraham to offer his only son Isaac on an altar.

Years later we see Isaac having children and living a good life.

And in fact, Paul even says ...

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

What went wrong?

Nothing.

 

[Alla27]

In my opinion, taking your son, plunging a knife through him to kill him, and offering him up as a burnt sacrifice to God is wrong.

Do you agree that it is wrong?

Yes, it is wrong if it is your own decision. But if God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob tells Abraham PERSONALLY to do it then it is not wrong. We all know that God of Abraham did NOT need Isaak to be killed. God did NOT need it.

 

[doubtingmerle]

There is a basic principle:

The knee buckling heart rending revelation of the GIFT OF GOD's LOVE and GRACE most visibly manifest in HIS SON whom HE sent for the very will and purpose of GOD as a covering for our sins

GOD is HOLY and required the ONE and ONLY WAY back into HIS HOLY PRESENCE...HIS SON

And THIS WAY was known and planned from the beginning showing that GOD from the abundance of HIS GRACE even from the beginnng even knowing our fall from the beginning created us knowing we would fall and knowing that at the fullness of time HE would send HIS SON to do for man what man could not do for himself by providing THE WAY back through , by and in HIS SO. who opened the WAY back through HIS BODY that all who want to enter in must enter in by THE TRUE VEIL which is HIS BODY

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Do you care to actually answer the question? Did your God require a blood sacrifice because somebody or somebody made him do it that way, or did he require a blood sacrifice because that was his free decision to do it that way?

 

[miknik5]

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Do you care to actually answer the question? Did your God require a blood sacrifice because somebody or somebody made him do it that way, or did he require a blood sacrifice because that was his free decision to do it that way?

Ask HIM. In the end you can tell GOD that you knew a better way. But in doing that you profess yourself. And you are not GREATER than THE GIFT OF GOD simply because you don't understand THE MAGNITUDE of THE GIFT OF GOD

They will take out THE CAPSTONE and all knees shall bow

 

[doubtingmerle]

If God says: "do not kill this person" it is morally right not to kill. If God says: "kill this person" it is morally right to kill. God sets standards of morality, not His children who MADE A COVENANT with God.
What Abraham did was morally right in eyes of God. Your eyes or my eyes are irrelevant.

And if God says to fly a plane full of people into a building, then in your view it is morally right to fly the plane into the building, and morally wrong to land the plane safely, yes?

And if God says to set off a nuke, or rape, murder ans pillage, well, then you say to do it?

And why should you do these things that most people consider evil? Is it because he is the most powerful being, and might makes right?

It seems to me that, if the most powerful being says to do wrong, it is still wrong.

 

[miknik5]

And if God says to fly a plane full of people into a building, then in your view it is morally right to fly the plane into the building, and morally wrong to land the plane safely, yes?

And if God says to set off a nuke, or rape, murder ans pillage, well, then you say to do it?

And why should you do these things that most people consider evil? Is it because he is the most powerful being, and might makes right?

It seems to me that, if the most powerful being says to do wrong, it is still wrong.

Make a right judgement sir

 

[miknik5]

GID doesn't need anything from men. HE has given HIS BEST already

 

[doubtingmerle]

Ask HIM.

If I asked God if something forces him not to forgive unless his son dies, what will he say? Will he say he was forced to let his son die, and there was no other way to provide salvation? Or will he say He is in charge, and he chose that the universe will work in such a way that nobody will be forgiven unless his son dies?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Make a right judgement sir

The question before us is what is the right judgement to make if we are certain that we hear God commanding us to fly a plane full of people into a building. I think the right judgement is to say no to that command.

What do you think the right judgement would be in that case?

 

[doubtingmerle]

GID doesn't need anything from men. HE has given HIS BEST already

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Again the question: Does your God need to require his son to die before he forgives? Or does he just choose not to forgive unless his son dies?

 

[miknik5]

If I asked God if something forces him not to forgive unless his son dies, what will he say? Will he say he was forced to let his son die, and there was no other way to provide salvation? Or will he say He is in charge, and he chose that the universe will work in such a way that nobody will be forgiven unless his son dies?

HE will say blessed are those who have not seen and believe. You sir believe you are wiser than GOD and because of it the TRUTH will be kept from you

 

[miknik5]

GOD, in HIS WISDOM has done it that way sir. So that no man will ever be able to exalt himself above THE GIFT OF HIS SON. In fact it pleased GOD by the foolishness of what is preached that thE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL should be the VERY POWER of GOD to those who believe

Sorry for my abruptness but there does come a time when one keeps their mouth silent. And that by your going around in circles asking the same question again as if you understand has come. I have given you the TRUTH your work is to seek HIM for yourself and to never stop seeking until you find. Or in truth are found