My Abraham Challenge

[doubtingmerle]

Yet according to your definition, if the sacrifice was done in a non "civilized modern country", it would then no longer be murder.

But it would still be evil, yes?

Do you agree with me that it is wrong to offer up your son as a burnt sacrifice to God, even if you live in a country where it is legal?

 

[miknik5]

It is wrong to even think that GOD is looking for or is willing to accept an innocent offering from unclean hands

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

But it would still be evil, yes?

Do you agree with me that it is wrong to offer up your son as a burnt sacrifice to God, even if you live in a country where it is legal?

Who defines what is good or evil? How do you know it is evil? In nature, animals do worse things. Rodent mothers eat their young when they feel threatened. Bears eat their cubs when food is scarce. When a new male lion takes control of a pride, the first thing it does is kill all the cubs in order to prevent any future challengers. So what makes us so different. Why is it then "evil" for a human to sacrifice their child if their culture accepts it?

What if someone killed their child because they could not afford to take care of it? Is it "evil"? What if a woman slaughtered a child because she simply no longer wanted to be a mother? Is that evil?

So who sets the standard of evil?

 

[doubtingmerle]

It is wrong to even think that GOD is looking for or is willing to accept an innocent offering from unclean hands

And a dead body will make our hands clean? Is that your point?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Why is it then "evil" for a human to sacrifice their child if their culture accepts it?

So if your culture accepts it, can you not think of a single reason that it would be wrong to tie your son up on the alter, plunge a knife down through his chest, let the blood flow out until he dies, and then light his body on fire as a sacrifice to God?

And your question is why we would think that is evil if we were living in a culture that accepts it?

Answer: Because getting killed hurts people and ends their life.

Next question.

 

[Grafted In]

Doubtingmerle, you have appointed yourself to be the judge of God. You place yourself above His position as God and Creator.

So what else can you tell us about The one you call wicked ? Give us more....the latest scoop on The God of all creation. What juicey tidbits can you throw our way?
What are your plans to justly punish Him?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Doubtingmerle, you have appointed yourself to be the judge of God. You place yourself above His position as God and Creator.

So what else can you tell us about The one you call wicked ? Give us more....the latest scoop on The God of all creation. What juicey tidbits can you throw our way?
What are your plans to justly punish Him?

I am not judging God. I am judging the writer of Genesis.

The writer of Genesis says God praised a man for setting out to kill his son, and implies that this was a good thing to do. I disagree with the writer of Genesis.

 

[miknik5]

And a dead body will make our hands clean? Is that your point?

There is only ONE who washes and makes clean.

And HE is very much alive.

It is why there will be no more offerings.
And if anyone were to offer any sacrifice before GOD.

It would be an abomination in HIS SIGHT.

HE provided the offering and the reason that offering is sufficient is because the ONE who is both the HOLY OFFERING and the HOLY PRESIDER over the offering entered into the HOLY OF HOLIES lives forever to make intercession for all those who will come to HIM through the TRUE VEIL...which is HIS BODY.

 

[Hank77]

So even if Abraham subscribed to the idea that whatever God commands he must do, how could he possibly know that the voice he was hearing was indeed God?

So again, I say no to ever killing our sons as a sacrifice to God. I think it is immoral.

Do you have a close friend or family that when you hear their voice you know that you know, that is their voice?
God called Abraham His friend. They were friends and Abraham knew God's voice when he heard it ,and I think we can know that God knew Abraham's voice.

What a load of manure this thread is becoming. The lessons of the Abraham's story are many. One of them is that Gd does not require, need nor desire human sacrifice. Another conclusion is that there are limits to obedience. Obedience cannot be blind and it cannot violate the Law. Human sacrifice, and sacrifice of children in particular, is an abomination.

How does that make the story clearer? If it is wrong to offer one's son up as a sacrifice to God, why is it write to offer Jesus as a sacrifice to God? Wouldn't God be able to forgive us even if people had not killed Jesus?

Jesus gave His own life for us. Rather like a soldier going into battle against the enemy of people who don't even know him or recognize him as the hero that he is.
The difference is that the battle that Jesus fought for us was against a spiritual foe, and He won.

Resurrection – Isaac (figuratively) and Jesus in reality: “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, ‘It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.’ Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death” (Hebrews 11:17–19);

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So if your culture accepts it, can you not think of a single reason that it would be wrong to tie your son up on the alter, plunge a knife down through his chest, let the blood flow out until he dies, and then light his body on fire as a sacrifice to God?

And your question is why we would think that is evil if we were living in a culture that accepts it?

Answer: Because getting killed hurts people and ends their life.

Next question.

The point that I am trying to make is simple:

"beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins

So you asked if I think it is wrong to sacrifice my child for a god in the name of religion. Well I say that if God does not exist...why not. How is it any different for abortion where children are sacrificed in the name of selfishness. Yet you don't hear a peep for humanists on the abortion issue.

Now the question is asked with the assumption that God does exist and the events surrounding Abraham actually happened. So I will answer the question in the same context. If God does exist, God and God alone is the standard of good and evil. If He wanted to have Abraham kill his son in order to bring his son back to life, that is good. Btw...there are several scriptures where God says human sacrifice is an abomination.

 

[Grafted In]

I am not judging God. I am judging the writer of Genesis.

The writer of Genesis says God praised a man for setting out to kill his son, and implies that this was a good thing to do. I disagree with the writer of Genesis.[/QUOTE? ]

God is the author of Genesis.

Doubtingmerle, you seem to me to be a very angry person.
I can't help but wonder if you were severely mistreated by an authority within a church you attended early in life. Perhaps sexually abused. if so why not seek counsel for the wrongs done to you. you can't take it out in the whole world, nor God, Himself.
There must be a driving force

 

[doubtingmerle]

--

Can you explain to me why you resort to ad hominem arguments? Can you explain to me why you ignore forum rules, and choose to attack the person rather than attack the comments that the person is making?

No, I am not mentally ill. I was not abused as a child. There is nothing wrong with me. Please apologize for posting this attack on my character. Should you choose to apologize, I will graciously forgive you.

I promise not to attack your character if you promise to not attack mine. Deal?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The point that I am trying to make is simple:

"beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins

Uh, Dawkins is describing the natural state of nature. He by no means says that we as humans are limited to that. Humanism is all about the abilities of people to work in cooperation and goodness to achieve great things. You might want to read what Humanists actually write about morality and goodness. See, for instance, http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/583658.Sense_and_Goodness_Without_God

So you asked if I think it is wrong to sacrifice my child for a god in the name of religion. Well I say that if God does not exist...why not.

Sad, that.

So you see nothing wrong with tying your son up on an alter, and then repeatedly stabbing him in the chest until he dies, and then lighting his body on fire as a sacrifice to God? Your response is, if God does not forbid it, why not?

Can't you see that this is intrinsically wrong, that this is evil?

If the rule is that whatever God says is good, then that is good, then would you willingly commit the act described above if you are confident God was commanding it? Would you experience no tinge of guilt, no feeling that the act you are committing is intrinsically wrong?

If you were confident that God was commanding you to fly a plane full of people into a building, would you do it?

How is it any different for abortion where children are sacrificed in the name of selfishness. Yet you don't hear a peep for humanists on the abortion issue.

Have you looked?

Here, for instance, is a Humanist discussion on abortion -- http://infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/ .

Now the question is asked with the assumption that God does exist and the events surrounding Abraham actually happened.

No, I presume that Genesis is fiction. Regardless of whether Genesis is true, this story praises a man for setting out to kill his son as a sacrifice to God, and I have a problem with that.

So I will answer the question in the same context. If God does exist, God and God alone is the standard of good and evil. If He wanted to have Abraham kill his son in order to bring his son back to life, that is good.

And if God wants you to set off a nuke, that is good? Is that what you are saying?

Btw...there are several scriptures where God says human sacrifice is an abomination.

Exactly. So why is Abraham praised for setting out to do human sacrifice?

 

[doubtingmerle]

God is the author of Genesis.

I disagree. Can you give me a good reason to believe that God is the author of Genesis?

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON



Closed at OP request.


ADMIN HAT OFF