My Abraham Challenge

[miknik5]

That generation accused their fathers generation of killing the prophets and said if it had been us we would not have killed them

So CHRIST says I send you "prophets"

who will also be killed for their testimony. And who will this generation blame it on when the " prophets" who are HIS WITNESSES will testify?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Wow, we are getting way off topic here. Can we reign it in, or start another thread if you want a different topic?

The problem is simple. Genesis says God told Abraham to kill his son. A good God would not say that. Also Genesis says that, after God stopped Abraham, God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. A good God would not do that.

One person here has said that God can morally make such commands for human sacrifice , and that he personally would kill his own son as a sacrifice to God if he was certain God was commanding it. Would he also rape and fly planes into buildings if he was certain God was commanding it? I don't see the answer, but either way he is in a bind. If he says he would do anything that he is certain God is commanding, he is promoting a horrific morality with no justification other than that might makes right. If he says he would not go that far, I wander why he would go as far as murder, but not any further. That seems to be a conundrum for the view expressed by many on this thread, so perhaps somebody else wants to address it. If you are certain God is commanding you to kill your son of fly a plane into a building, would you do it?

I see also the suggestion here that it was OK for God to command Abraham to kill his son, because that was an illustration of God surrendering his own son. Excuse me but attempted murder is wrong. Period. Attempted murder is wrong. It does not matter that you were trying to teach a lesson. Attempted murder is wrong.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Understood that it was a test of Abraham. But what you forgot to mention is that it was a test to see if Abraham was willing to do something that would be morally wrong for you and I to do. And according to Genesis 22 Abraham demonstrated that he would go to the point where he would do something I consider morally wrong for anybody, he would go to the point where he would kill his son and burn the body of his son on an alter as a sacrifice to God if commanded to do that.

So I wonder if you agree with me that it is morally wrong for anybody to take his son and lay him on an alter, and then take out his knife and kill that son. Is that morally wrong? I say it is.


So the test is if Abraham would do that which would be morally wrong for you and I to do? Why would God test Abraham to see if he would do something that would be morally wrong for you and I to do? If it is morally wrong for you and I to do what Abraham did, why is it not morally wrong for Abraham to do it?

It was a test of Abraham's faith and trust in God and His promises. God promised Abraham that he would be the father of nations through Issac. Something that would be impossible to do if Issac was dead. Abraham had so much faith and trust in God that he believed that God would raise his son from the dead in order to fulfill God's promise to him. Abraham did not see it as murder because he believed God would keep His promise.

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
Hebrews 11:17‭-‬20 NIV

 

[miknik5]

Wow, we are getting way off topic here. Can we reign it in, or start another thread if you want a different topic?

The problem is simple. Genesis says God told Abraham to kill his son. A good God would not say that. Also Genesis says that, after God stopped Abraham, God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. A good God would not do that.

One person here has said that God can morally make such commands for human sacrifice , and that he personally would kill his own son as a sacrifice to God if he was certain God was commanding it. Would he also rape and fly planes into buildings if he was certain God was commanding it? I don't see the answer, but either way he is in a bind. If he says he would do anything that he is certain God is commanding, he is promoting a horrific morality with no justification other than that might makes right. If he says he would not go that far, I wander why he would go as far as murder, but not any further. That seems to be a conundrum for the view expressed by many on this thread, so perhaps somebody else wants to address it. If you are certain God is commanding you to kill your son of fly a plane into a building, would you do it?

I see also the suggestion here that it was OK for God to command Abraham to kill his son, because that was an illustration of God surrendering his own son. Excuse me but attempted murder is wrong. Period. Attempted murder is wrong. It does not matter that you were trying to teach a lesson. Attempted murder is wrong.

Okay let's reign it in
The witnesses testify to the TRUTH

GOD's WORD stated from the beginning every man will be required to give an account for the shed blood of a man or animal

Abraham didn't kill his son
But the Son of GOD did shed HIS blood

And either HIS blood covers us or HIS blood will be upon us.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It was a test of Abraham's faith and trust in God and His promises.

A test that involved asking Abraham to kill his son.

What would you think of college students who tried to have other students prove their loyalty to the group by commanding them to kill people, then intervening before they actually carried it out? Can you not see that it is wrong to tell people to prove their loyalty by setting out to kill people?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Abraham didn't kill his son

Nobody claimed Abraham did kill his son.

The claim is that Genesis says God told him to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to tell people to kill their son?

The other claim is that Genesis says God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to praise people for setting out to kill their son?

 

[miknik5]

Nobody claimed Abraham did kill his son.

The claim is that Genesis says God told him to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to tell people to kill their son?

The other claim is that Genesis says God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to praise people for setting out to kill their son?

It doesn't matter. It still comes back to this:

Blood has been shed by the ONE whom all men will be required to give an account of THAT BLOOD shed by THAT ONE

 

[miknik5]

The claim sir was a prophecy of THE TRUE AND PROMISED SON

 

[Alla27]

The claim is that Genesis says God told him to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to tell people to kill their son?
The other claim is that Genesis says God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. Do you agree that it is wrong to praise people for setting out to kill their son?

1)It is wrong if I tell you to kill your child. It is wrong if you tell me to kill my child.
Do you know why it is wrong?

 

[miknik5]

1)It is wrong if I tell you to kill your child. It is wrong if you tell me to kill my child.
Do you know why it is wrong?

Do you think that Abraham's visible reenactment (in service to the generation who by THE SPIRIT of TRUTH/SPIRIT of CHRIST would look back and understand ) that GOD was ever and always pointing forward to the true and fore-spoken "PROMISED SON" was a mistake?

 

[Alla27]

Do you think that Abraham's visible reenactment (in service to the generation who by THE SPIRIT of TRUTH/SPIRIT of CHRIST would look back and understand ) that GOD was ever and always pointing forward to the true and fore-spoken "PROMISED SON" was a mistake?

No

 

[doubtingmerle]

1)It is wrong if I tell you to kill your child. It is wrong if you tell me to kill my child.
Do you know why it is wrong?

Yes, because we should not kill children.

 

[Alla27]

Yes, because we should not kill children.

I agree 100%. But why shouldn't we kill children? I really want to know your answer.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I agree 100%. But why shouldn't we kill children? I really want to know your answer.

We should not kill children because killing hurts, it snatches out a life that could have enjoyed many things, and because those who loved the victim are deprived.

Why do you think we should not kill children?

 

[Alla27]

We should not kill children because killing hurts,

I agree.

it snatches out a life that could have enjoyed many things, and because those who loved the victim are deprived.
Why do you think we should not kill children?

1)because we have no reasons to kill them.
2)because we can't give them back what we take away - their life.
BTW, God not only can give us breath of life He can take it away and then give it back. We can not do this. That is why law "do not kill" applies only to mortal men.
Mortal men can not take away life of INNOCENT people, they can not make restitution. Mortal men have no reason to kill INNOCENT people.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I agree.


1)because we have no reasons to kill them.
2)because we can't give them back what we take away - their life.

I don't believe we are having this discussion on why it is wrong to kill children. I am glad we agree that killing innocent children and sacrificing them to God is wrong.

And Genesis says Abraham was praised for setting out to do something wrong.

 

[Alla27]

And Genesis says Abraham was praised for setting out to do something wrong.

Abraham was not praised for something he did not do. Abraham was praised for trusting God and for obeying God.
If Abraham decided to kill his son for whatever reason God would punish him.

 

[-57]

Wow, we are getting way off topic here. Can we reign it in, or start another thread if you want a different topic?

The problem is simple. Genesis says God told Abraham to kill his son. A good God would not say that. Also Genesis says that, after God stopped Abraham, God praised Abraham for setting out to kill his son. A good God would not do that.

One person here has said that God can morally make such commands for human sacrifice , and that he personally would kill his own son as a sacrifice to God if he was certain God was commanding it. Would he also rape and fly planes into buildings if he was certain God was commanding it? I don't see the answer, but either way he is in a bind. If he says he would do anything that he is certain God is commanding, he is promoting a horrific morality with no justification other than that might makes right. If he says he would not go that far, I wander why he would go as far as murder, but not any further. That seems to be a conundrum for the view expressed by many on this thread, so perhaps somebody else wants to address it. If you are certain God is commanding you to kill your son of fly a plane into a building, would you do it?

I see also the suggestion here that it was OK for God to command Abraham to kill his son, because that was an illustration of God surrendering his own son. Excuse me but attempted murder is wrong. Period. Attempted murder is wrong. It does not matter that you were trying to teach a lesson. Attempted murder is wrong.

I wish I could be like you...more soverign and wiser than God.

 

[-57]

"Abraham had obeyed God many times in his walk with Him, but no test could have been more severe than the one in Genesis 22. God commanded, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering” (Genesis 22:2a).

This was an astounding command because Isaac was the son of promise. God had promised several times that from Abraham’s own body would come a nation as multitudinous as the stars in heaven (Genesis 12:2–3; 15:4–5). Later, Abraham was specifically told that the promise would be through Isaac (Genesis 21:12).

How did Abraham respond to God’s command to sacrifice Isaac?"

From Got questions

(Staff edit for copyright reasons)

 

[-57]

2


"Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham!' And he said, 'Here I am.' 2 And He said, 'Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.'"(Gen. 22:1-2).

God told Abraham to kill his son Isaac because their actions are pointing ahead to the person of Christ in a typology of the true sacrifice. First of all, God says to Abraham to take his only son. But, we know that 13 years earlier Ishmael had been born to Abraham. So why would God call Isaac the only son? The answer becomes clear when we see what the Scriptures teach.

When Jesus was having a dialogue with the Jews, they accused him of being demon possessed. Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (John 8:56-58). (Note that Jesus claimed divinity by referencing the divine name "I AM." see Exodus 3:14). Now, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day. What did Jesus mean by this? The answer is found in the following chart.


ISAAC
Genesis

JESUS
Gospels
Only begotten Son Gen. 22:2 John 3:16
Offered on a mountain, hill Gen. 22:2 Matt. 21:10
Took donkey to place of sacrifice Gen. 22:3 Matt. 21:2-11
Two men went with him Gen. 22:3 Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33
Three day journey. Jesus: three days in the grave Gen. 22:4 Luke 24:13-21
Son carried wood on his back up hill Gen. 22:6 John 19:17
God will provide for Himself the lamb Gen. 22:8 John 1:29
Son was offered on the wood Gen. 22:9 Luke 23:33
Ram in thicket of thorns, crown of thorns Gen. 22:13 John 19:2
The seed will be multiplied Gen. 22:17 John 1:12; Isaiah 53:10
Abraham went down. Son didn't. Isaac is "not mentioned" Gen. 22:19 Luke 23:46
Servant, gets bride for son Gen. 24:1-4 Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 21:2, 9; 22:17
The bride was a beautiful virgin Gen. 24:16 2 Cor. 11:2
Servant offered ten gifts to bride Gen. 22:10 Rom. 6:23; 12; 1 Cor. 12
Let's examine the chart. Both Isaac and Jesus are called the only begotten son. Of course Abraham knew he had a son named Ishmael. But it was not Ishmael who was the son of the promised covenant; it was Isaac, (Gen. 17:19). That is why God called Isaac Abraham's only son. Plus, Isaac was representing the future Messiah. Jesus was also called the only begotten son. Also, both Jesus and Isaac were offered on a hill, and most scholars that I have read agree that it was the very same hill upon which they were both offered--though around 1800 years apart.

If you examine the chart, you can see that there is a very close parallel between the sacrifice of Isaac and the sacrifice of Jesus. Furthermore, you should be able to see that Abraham represented God the Father. Isaac represented God the Son. And the servant represented the God the Holy Spirit. The sacrifice of Christ was typified in the sacrifice of Isaac.

So, why did Abraham offer his son Isaac? He did so out of obedience--believing that God could raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:19), and also in his obedience he acted out the true sacrifice of the true only begotten son, Jesus.

CARM