These are practical issues which override the abstract theory.those issues are more individual church/people issues then catholic issues.
Yeaaaaah, that was kind of my point. Thanks for finally agreeing.
Only through the priest? No, which was my point. Thanks again.
Not you personally. Obviously, the formal sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession exists, depending on the church. I was referring to the fact that private confession as we know it and as you were referring to it was not practiced in the Apostolic church but came along later in time.
It is something of a technicality, but certainly the church admits that a person might come to Christ while a prisoner in North Korea, let's say, and not have any opportunity to receive any of the sacraments. But if he's repentant, would he be lost if he were killed by the authorities? The church would not say that. On the other hand, the church does require members to go to sacramental confession on a certain schedule.
Well, yeah, that was my original point. I'm not sure why you decided to disagree with me about it, but I'm glad you now understand what I was saying. God bless.
Yes.In the Catholic church, I believe the minimum requirement is once a year, preferably during Easter (surely, including Lent).
I wouldn't deny that, but some people feel the same way after reciting the general confession (in those churches which do it that way). Many feel like that after going to Communion, or after receiving a laying on of hands, or a number of other acts that are considered to be high points in the life of the believer/churchgoer.As goatee seemed to imply above, there is often a palpably mystical dimension that one can experience after making a confession - It would seem to be well described by the expression, 'the peace that passeth understanding.'
Your first assumption is untrue, therefor, your argument falls apart.
Penance is a TEMPORAL rather than eternal punishment. It gives you a, "get out of jail for 90 days," card which you can use to get out of the EARTHLY punishment for your sins. As I mentioned on a different thread, the penances (earthly punishments) were severe in the years after Rome fell. Now, I agree with Luther that selling them was wrong. You have to earn them, and not buy them. And the whole idea of getting people out of Purgatory (not hell, once you land there, you're in for good) was seen as a way of making money for the Vatican, and I disagree with that, as well.
As I also mentioned in an earlier post, the priest is standing in front of you as a witness. As you are also standing in front of an Icon of Jesus, He is there, as well (beside the point of "Where two or three...) When you confess to the priest, he is there to listen, to counsel, to console, and to teach. You confess your sins. God hears, when the priest pronounces your forgiveness, God supplies the grace, not the priest. (this of course is how EASTERN CATHOLICS do it.)
In the Roman right, the confessor sits (nowadays) in front of the penitent. The idea that God is there is the same, (where two or three...) When you confess, God gives you the grace to do it right. And when the priest blesses you, and pronounces your forgiveness, God supplies the grace, and not the priest.
Yes.
I wouldn't deny that, but some people feel the same way after reciting the general confession (in those churches which do it that way). Many feel like that after going to Communion, or after receiving a laying on of hands, or a number of other acts that are considered to be high points in the life of the believer/churchgoer.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "temporal punishment"? In what way does penance deliver a person from earthly punishments for sins?
If you rob a bank and get caught, and convicted, you go to jail. Sorry, but that is an easy one. But in the times Luther was complaining about, you would be forced to wear sack cloth and ashes for six months for unintentionally shorting your neighbor on a sack of flour, or other such things. Time in the stocks would be for more serious matters, such as eavesdropping, gossiping, etc.
So are you saying that temporal punishment is legal punishment that we are liable to for committing crimes? Is penance meant to replace the need to deal with criminal activity through the legal system?
In those times yes. TEMPORAL means "in time." It is why we call our time here on earth temporary! However, you are a Presbyterian, aren't you? I think that means you're a Calvinist, correct? I've been told time and again that Calvinists don't believe in all that Romish, Papist stuff. Or am I wrong?
Repayment? no. Atonement, more like. If a kid bats a ball through a window, you can never unbreak the window. You can make reparition, though. It's an attempt to make right what is wrong. Jesus told us "“If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church." I know this sounds backward, but in the first instance, you're allowing the one who sinned against you to repent. That's confession. In modern day, it's voluntary.As a Reformed believer I've always admired the Catholic practice of confession. I think that it ends up having some theological pitfalls and my Catholic brothers are welcome to correct me if I'm misunderstanding them. But to me, the pitfalls are:
Reformed types, and by extension most Protestants, have rejected these theological pitfalls, but why have we rejected the practice of confession altogether? The idea of fixed hours wherein parishioners may come to the pastor or elders of the church in order to confess their sins seems to me to be a wonderful help against the corruptions of the flesh. Yet this is not advertised, encouraged, or even practiced among reformed believers and protestants alike.
- A notion of penance which appears to be a form of re-payment for our sins.
- The insistence that an ordained priest must hear confession in order for a person to receive forgiveness (extenuating circumstances aside).
Why not? Wouldn't we benefit from it?
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