I have been hearing that the latest thing among more liberal Muslims is the profession of Christ. What is your opinion?
I was familiar with this while I was in Egypt. It does happen. I don't know any doctrinal specifics but the faiths do share many historical simularities so it is possible to blend them.
Agreed. My own Messianic fellowship just did a conference series on the issue of outreach with Muslims based on what we've experienced, be it with others evangelizing or working with those who are Muslim. I've discussed elsewhere when it comes to those who are Messianic Muslims... and Muslim outreach in areas where believers have often had to do battle with those who are extremist and don't allow others to practice freely (as shared here in #70 , #74 , #25 and #21 ). People often seem to have very little understanding of what it means to come from one background/express appreciation for it and yet be in another faith and advocate for that one---or how to practice your faith in areas where your options are limited. There was an excellent book I was going through that has been excellent on the issue, entitled "The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross" ( ), which has been really helpful whenever it comes to working with Muslims and seeing the extensive ways outreach is done amongst them and how they often interact with others. (more here , here, here, here and here/here).I was familiar with this while I was in Egypt. It does happen. I don't know any doctrinal specifics but the faiths do share many historical simularities so it is possible to blend them.
43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![c] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.
Lol no they are still referred to as Muslims because, like Catholicism, one is born into being a Muslim or Muslima. Most of the time they will meet together in house churches or on occasion go to a Coptic or Orthodox church if they live in the major cities. Whether or not they ever "come out" as a Christ follower to their families would depend on the individual family. (I'm speaking of my experiences in Cairo and Alexandria only, I don't know about the traditions of other places throughout the middle east or abroad.) they also blend the Qu'ran and the Old Testament (which they already use for the most part) in with the New Testament so most Muslim followers would still identify with Mo'hammad and his teachings as well.Would that then be what is called ChrisLam?
Easy G (G²);61623569 said:
Interesting to consider what you noted on seperating sexes...as I've gone to a Coptic Orthodox Church before when others from my Messianic fellowship visited with the Egyptian believers that our leadership had good relationship with (as shared here in #37 )--and they had the genders seperated by pews, with the women on one side and the men on the other side of the isle. It was awesome, considering that it's most likely what Paul was speaking of in I Timothy 2 when it came to the issue of women not being silent in the fellowship (as that occurred in that culture and having to ask a husband across the isle would mean having to yell/disrupt the meeting).[/center]
Love this and love Rick Warren. When I was in Egypt I attended mosque every Friday and went to a Coptic church on Sunday. There was always great dialogue between my escort, who was a Muslim man, the Muslima's with me at mosque and those who went to the coptic church. One big difference is that, like Orthodoz Judaism, Islam seperates the sexes in worship and teaching, so attending a coptic church was a rare opportunity for man and wife to be together during teaching. ...
Most i talked to enjoyed this and said they learned more together and had a better experience, although some (mostly older) did say it was a distraction
People may not like the man on certain things, but I gotta respect him for his heart to reach out to others rather than demonize them or act as if they all need to be quarantined/kept at arms-length.[/center]
Love this and love Rick Warren. ...
Have you heard of Thich Nhat Hanh? He is a Buddist monk and a professing Christian. He has a book called "Living Buddha, Living Christ" ... very interesting read.“I will travel any road to find you.”
ExactlyEasy G (G²);61623730 said:People may not like the man on certain things, but I gotta respect him for his heart to reach out to others rather than demonize them or act as if they all need to be quarantined/kept at arms-length.
Haven't come across that one, although I'll consider looking into it. Generally, I'm very selective about what I check out..Have you heard of Thich Nhat Hanh? He is a Buddist monk and a professing Christian. He has a book called "Living Buddha, Living Christ" ... very interesting read.
The church I attended did seperate by pew but the families were at least in the same room together. In the mosques, generally the women are in a completely seperate room and while they hear the same general message there are often different discussions or side-teachings that take place in the seperate spaces before or after the message. (at the mosque I attended, my escort would drop me off at the women's entrance and would then walk another block to get to the men's entrance. the women were all in a larger room upstairs, above the mosque itself. We watched the Imam give his message via CCTV but before the service started prayers and "theological" conversation were all conducted between the women. therefore, those women would never have the same experience as the men. {think men's and women's Sunday school idea})
Easy G (G²);61623569 said:Agreed. My own Messianic fellowship just did a conference series on the issue of outreach with Muslims based on what we've experienced, be it with others evangelizing or working with those who are Muslim. I've discussed elsewhere when it comes to those who are Messianic Muslims... and Muslim outreach in areas where believers have often had to do battle with those who are extremist and don't allow others to practice freely (as shared here in #70 , #74 , #25 and #21 ). People often seem to have very little understanding of what it means to come from one background/express appreciation for it and yet be in another faith and advocate for that one---or how to practice your faith in areas where your options are limited. There was an excellent book I was going through that has been excellent on the issue, entitled "The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross" ( ), which has been really helpful whenever it comes to working with Muslims and seeing the extensive ways outreach is done amongst them and how they often interact with others. (more here , here, here, here and here/here).
A lot of times, people unaware of how things are in certain areas may get afraid. Seen it often whenever there are accusations brought up about people practicing Chrislam if anything is mentioned about Muslim-Background Believers.
The term "Chrislam" itself, also called "The Will of God Mission, The True Message of God Mission" or Oke-Tude which means The Mountain of Loosing Bondage in Yoruba, is a Nigerian syncretic religion which mixes elements of both Christianity and Islam. That is something that often gets lost in discussion whenever it comes to contexualizing the Gospel within Islamic contexts....and it's no different than assuming the folks at Westboro Baptist (who hate homosexuals/protest their funerals) happen to be believers/representives of Christ simply because they're said to be within the camp of Christianity.
When people take what happened in Nigeria (which I vehemently disagree with) and procedd to say all aspects of Islam itself can never be agreed to/acknowledged as verifying Biblical truth, that's an issue...for that's not the same as saying that all aspects of Islam are the same as Christianity or that the Quran itself is fully inspired as the Bible (as Chrislam does).
As it concerns Chrislam, I'm not really in favor of it...though I'm glad for others noting that just because one's a Messianic Muslim doesn't automatically mean they're in the camp of Chrislam (even though it can go there if one's not careful).
This came up recently in regards to Rick Warren when he was accussed of Chrislam simply for his stances on forming relationships/dialouges. Most folks looked at Rick Warren as well as others and seem to be for what's known as Islamaphobia..and they really do an injustice to other believers who've lived in Islamic controlled nations/have had to know how to live out Titus 3 in working with others...knowing how to form RELATIONSHIPS with others rather than ignore those who may be lost. The actions of believers in the early church toward the lost were FAR more extreme than what Rick and others have done---and I'm glad Rick has been seeking to do as he did. Those saying Rick Warren supports Chrislam simply because he seeks to love Muslims really don't know what the term entails and they use it incorrectly...and slander in the process.
For more info, one can go online/look up the following under the respective titles:
From Orange County Register:
Sadden seeing alot of the junk that seems the come out the moment someone says that they're about building relationships with others outside of their camp--for it ultimately seems like the focus is that people don't truly love those who are to be evangelized to unless they are in agreement with them Still wondering how in the world Rick Warren was remotely accussed of "Chrislam" simply for working with Muslims...and yet the same people don't even address where others already did likewise, be it with Joseph in Egypt or Esther in Persia or Daniel in Babylon and Paul in his work with the unknown god ( more discussed here in #4 and #57 ). And with Muslims, there are a HOST of logical inconsistencies many people ascribe to them that really are not accurate (even though many other things aren't accurate in regards to how to see God) and that is the reason many have taken alot of issue.The effort, informally dubbed King's Way, caps years of outreach between Warren and Muslims. Warren has broken Ramadan fasts at a Mission Viejo mosque, met Muslim leaders abroad and addressed 8,000 Muslims at a national convention in Washington D.C.
Saddleback worshippers have invited Muslims to Christmas dinner and played interfaith soccer at a picnic in Irvine attended by more than 300 people. (The game pitted pastors and imams against teens from both faiths. The teens won.)
As Warren said best:
Several of the above comments are completely incorrect, based on believing 2nd hand false rumors instead of finding out the facts before speaking up. "Only a fool believes all he hears" Proverbs 14:15
__________________The so-called "Chrislam" rumor is 100% false. If the guy who started this libelous myth, or anyone else who passed it on, had obeyed our Lord's command (Matt. 18:18-20) to come directly to me, and then asked what I actually believed they would have been embarrassed to learn that I believe the exact opposite. As a 4th generation Christian pastor, my life & ministry is built on the truth that Jesus is the only way, and our inerrant Bible is our only true authority.
As an evangelist, I spend much of my time speaking to non-Christian groups. You cannot win your enemies to Christ; only your friends, so we must build bridges of friendship and love to those who believe differently so Jesus can walk across that bridge into their hearts. Besides, it is not a sin, but rather COMMANDED by Jesus that we love our enemies. In the past 10 years, Saddleback Church has baptized over 22,000 new adult believers simply because we express love to those who dont know Christ yet.
It is nonsense to believe that you must compromise your beliefs, or water down your convictions in order to love someone, or even just treat them with dignity.
Jesus was called "the friend of sinners" by the legalistic Pharisees because he hung out with (and clearly loved) unbelievers. I HOPE YOU will 1) Always believe that EVERYONE needs Jesus as their Lord & Savior. 2) Have the courage to associate with nonbelievers in order to love them and bring them to the Savior. 3) Consider being called "a friend of sinners" a Christ-like compliment. 4) Refuse to pass on rumors until you've checked for the truth with the person accused. The false statements above should be removed.
God bless you.
Rick Warren
For those having a heart with evangelism or friendships with others outside of their own camp, it's really not something that should scare others. But many often get scared whenever anything comes up in regards to inter-faith dialouges/interactions.
For others saying it's wrong to work with others in Islam (as was noted with the accusations against people like Rick Warren), where I disagree is that people never go the entire way with it/seperate themselves from ALL people in existence who do not believe as they do or hold their values. I followed up with the accusations made on Rick Warren--and not surprisingly, alot of the fuss seemed to be over-exaggerated since all he was coming from was that we live next to others/need to know how to interact, just as we are to do with all people. I Peter 2 makes EXPLICITLY clear that we're to honor all men, including the Emperor...and for Peter to say that in a time where persecution was high/ignited by an emeperor who HATED Christians is kkey.
Also, I Corinthians 5 speaks on that matter when Paul notes how he never commanded others to disconnect from all in the world, lest they'd have to leave entirely. And the Biblical example is NOT one where believers demand others believe as they do in order to work alongside of them. Jesus lived life/worked with others who denied His Divinity as well as did not follow the Lord---and yet he existed. And yet he still did as he commanded others in loving His enemies/doing good to those harming him...being a Peace Maker in his actions.If Luke 6:27-36 and Matthew 5:43-46 are true, then we have to live that out to the fullest. And part of loving others is being in community/relationship with them, just as I'm in relationship with the people in my neighborhood.
Some of it, is similar to what occurred when Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire and other empires had similar dynamics, with it being the case that others were not trying to take away the right of others to practice/believe/declare their religious views as they wish....but more so about letting others do as they do so long as belief in God/Jesus was dominant while the believers had freedom to do as they wished.
By default, anyone practicing a religion other than one devoted to Christ "pushes" their view, be it in passive ways or aggressive, since their choosing not to follow Christ places them in the category of saying that he's somehow wrong/not worth following....but there's a way to go about it thankfully when it comes to living alongside others worshipping other gods just as we live alongside people in our neighborhoods down the street---all of whom have differing beliefs, interesting perspectives and stories to tell of how they see the world. Hearing of it should not always be a threat to believers...
When it comes to contexualizing faith in Yeshua within a Islamic or Muslim worldview, there are grades/variations, just as it is with those who are Messianic Jews and how there's the potential for many claiming to be "Messianic Jewish"/loving Judaic worldviews to ending up in either full blown Rabbinical Judaism..or camps in Judaism that deny Jesus is the Messiah/go into odd practices (like with Kabbalah). One poster discussed the issue more so here (even though he disagrees with insider movements in general)--and I'm glad for the work of others such as Joseph Cumming when it comes to the ways they've clarified the varities that can occur when doing evangelism, as noted here.
One... it isn't liberal to have a profession of faith.I have been hearing that the latest thing among more liberal Muslims is the profession of Christ. What is your opinion?
Indeed, people don't understand what it means to be a Muslim in the contexts they live in and how it's more so about community than anything else, just as it was often the case that others in certain Indigenious tribes didn't cease being part of the tribe simply because they became a believer in Christ. Whenever people say that one cannot be a believer and a Muslim, I'm wondering how it's the case that one says that they can be American and a Christian---as it concerns the history of America and where it at many points diverged from what the Lord wanted, even though others say that your identity as an American never ceases even while you follow Christ.Lol no they are still referred to as Muslims because, like Catholicism, one is born into being a Muslim or Muslima. Most of the time they will meet together in house churches or on occasion go to a Coptic or Orthodox church if they live in the major cities.
A lot of people who were up-in-arms on the issue often tended to be people that really had no interactions with Muslims of any kind....and tended to be of the Islamaphobia mindset where anything deemed "Muslim" is demonized. Similar happened on my side after seeing other Christians do humanatarian work with Muslim women in the United States seeking refuge from war, persecution & poverty to make a new life for themselves and their families. The women made high quality and one-of-a-kind accessories using top-of-the-line, repurposed fabrics....and I bought some material from them as well as for my mom that was stunning. Loved it and the work that other believers were doing in sponsoring them, although others who were not aware of what it was about tried to throw out the "Chrislam" buzzword as a reason why they were cautious----and in seeing for themselves what was done, others were pleasantly surprised. For more, one can go to Peace of Thread and here to simple thoughts: Peace of Thread giveawayMost complete info. I've seen on the Chrislam subject. Here in N.M. it hasn't been a big issue, if any at all, save for a few commenting on it. I recall now, from hearing anything about it about 3-4 years ago, that some were all upset about it and Warren. I'm a bit too involved in work, the recovery compound we sponsor at the edge of a rez. and promoting a ministry in the Dakotas, WY. and around to get involved in what appeared to be a flap-flap session. Figured they'd tar and feather Warren if he was really as bad as they said. Glad to read the article and his words. Interesting.
Easy G (G²);61626678 said:Indeed, people don't understand what it means to be a Muslim in the contexts they live in and how it's more so about community than anything else, just as it was often the case that others in certain Indigenious tribes didn't cease being part of the tribe simply because they became a believer in Christ. Whenever people say that one cannot be a believer and a Muslim, I'm wondering how it's the case that one says that they can be American and a Christian---as it concerns the history of America and where it at many points diverged from what the Lord wanted, even though others say that your identity as an American never ceases even while you follow Christ.
Ultimately, it's about whether or not you're a follower of Christ...as opposed to whether or not you have the label of "Christian" (as Christ never was focused on that and the term didn't come up until later in the development of the church, Acts 11 and I Peter 4). Those believers who are Messianic Muslims are getting persecuted/harmed just as others are when they claim to follow Christ---and their blood being shed is precious in the sight of the Lord just as it is for other Christians around the world ( Psalm 72:13-15 /Psalm 116:14-16/ Psalm 116 ). The work of Brother Andrew (who wrote the book "God Smuggler" detailing his work behind the Iron Curtain as a missionary) is very powerful when studying what life is like for many believers from a Muslim background. For more, one can go to Secret Believers - Podbean.
Many Muslims have long noted that believing in the Quran does not mean one believes all aspects of it are accurate, even though there are levels of revelation within it. Islam is not something where there are cookie cutter variations, just as there are many Christianities and many Judaisms. Arguing against that is like saying that all who are Christians in Evangelical Christianity reflect the variety of thought of all who were Christians throughout history and that all have the same view of scripture.Islam, which is the belief of Muslims, believes in the Koran. So to say you are a Muslim, says you are a follower of Islam. And that means you believe the Koran is revelation from god/allah thru prophet Mohammed. .
Now, can a Christian believe the Koran?
That's cool, as many are Muslims from a myriad of backgrounds, including Asian such as in Indonesian culture. Others make clear that they don't agree with other Muslims believing that Mohommad was perfect nor do they think the Quran is the supreme revelation since it notes that others need to listen to the people of the book---with many coming to Christ after seeing the Quran encourage them to read the Bible and see the Lord.Muslims come from all different groups. Many are Arabs, and you can be a Arab Christian. Some are African, and you can be an African Christian.
I do know a few who are former Muslims and now Christian. They do not consider themselves Muslim any longer.
You're free to believe such, but others have never advocated that and it's no different than being an American (despite the religious backgrounds that differ from Biblical Chrisitanity) and yet still a follower of the Lord. Islam has aspects of truth in it that point to what Christ talked on and it's the same with all other cultures where partial relevation is present---with others in the culture knowing how to reach people in their own backgrounds, just as others who become believers after coming from a background in Hip-Hop culture (which also has religious influences) doesn't mean they stop being a part of hip hop...or that others coming out of Judaism denying Messiah mean that they stop with Judaism.So, I would be suspicious of Muslim Christians as that shows a split allegiance. Islam denies too much about Yeshua to be compatible