Muslim Christians

[yedida]

If they hate the Jews then they have nothing in common with Christianity. With some Christians, sadly yes, but not Christianity.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If they hate the Jews then they have nothing in common with Christianity. With some Christians, sadly yes, but not Christianity.

For anyone that hates Jews, they don't have anything in common with Christ---regardless of where they're at---since He never was for that, just as He was never for the thought that anyone who is Abrahamic in their faith/not focused on Jewish culture in their cultural views is automatically not of Him....for He loved people/went out of his way to make that a driving point, be it in His work with Gentiles or Samaritans. Anti-Semitism goes in many forms, including Philo-Semitism that makes it out that Jews can do no wrongs/are naturally better than others and that all should follow them in every action.....something many Jewish people have spoken out against and have noted to be present even with Gentiles who effectively fail at promoting love when wanting so much to imitate Jewish culture that they eventually push the Jewish people out of being unique/making them feel like they can't even be dominant in their own fellowships meant to reach out to them.

I hate it whenever you see the stories of other Muslims who've been trained based on bad theology to hate others who are Jewish....and yet thankfully, there've been countless Muslims throughout the centuries who've lived in peace with Jews and noted how others need to love them/support them---with them noting it multiple times how corrupt it is that others in the name of God seek to hate them. I'm always amazed at how those people get left out of the picture and others don't even take time to talk to them. I actually had it where I recently went to the International Food Market store to buy some shemaghs /scarfs for myself and had a lovely conversation with the owner of the store. I've gone to other ones, but they made one in my area and I had checked it out.

She was intrigued that I was comfortable in her store buying material/knowledgable of what was present---and she asked me why I was intending on buying them. It opened the door for me to share with her how I alongside others wear them at my Messianic fellowship...and when I told her on Messianic Jews, she was surprised. For her, she had never come across Jews claiming to love Yeshua.....and it was cool for her to see that there were others.

I also told her of how Yeshua was the true hope of the Jewish people and she really connected. It was a big deal to connect, as other leaders at my fellowhship have done the same with other Muslims before and it's cool having them become aware of things...and after I dold her what I did, she then procedded to alert me to how she was saddened to see the ways children don't honor their parents, as she was raised to believe that you don't just leave where you grow up or abandon the culture of your parents. I then told her on how doing Youth Ministry will expose you to many accounts of others who grew up in church and exposed to CHristianity/Jesus, only to abandon it....be it when seeking out something different from what may seem like Churhianity (i.e. doing things based on Church Traditions rather than focusing on the person of CHrist and ministry) to them....or simply saying to their parents that they don't want to love the Lord anymore and wish to see other things. I also noted how some simply wanted to explore other faiths so that they could know what they believe rather than accept it simply because someone else told them to believe it.

SHe really connected with what I was saying since she thought it was a big deal for others to take ownership of what they are taught---and then she alerted me to the son of another believer/Christian she was friends with who walked away from his parents and hated them apparently. She also asked me to be praying for them and their family to have reconcilliation rather than broken relationships....and I so respected her for what she said. For in Muslim culture, there's often a greater awareness of the importance of family than what's present in many churches or synagouges and fellowships. The Western culture of individualism has crippled many families due to everyone being so individual and not about community or being connected.

I am hoping for the Lord to bring even more opportunites my way for me to share His love/truth with other Muslims and to invite them to my home so that they'd see Christ/Isa more clearly. And seeing others who've done so as Jewish people, it's very inspiring

No Bacon, Please. Jewish Muslim Friendship" - My Fellow American​

 

[GuardianShua]

No, as I don't have the funds to afford such. I've done a lot of research/study on the matter over the years and it's not that difficult in writing it out (and you get used to it over time when it comes to ministry research/sermons and Graduate School work...and prior to that, college-prepatory highschool writing which gets you used to quick processing, with memory recall coming in handy as well). Sa

Like I said before, did a conference on this very issue with my Messianic fellowship not too long ago and it's a passion of mine I'd wonder the same on you with journalists as it concerns politics/being against Romney

I hate politics, and I hate writing. Believe it or not.

 

[Diakoneo10]

Great example easy. I've also had opportunities like this when I was in the Middle East... Based on how I was dressed.

I was mostly on my own but when I did things with a larger group ( I was there with the Middle East studies program, purposefully studying inter-faith relations in the country...) my manner of dress made me stand separate from the other westerners. This open lots of doors because people would ask why I dressed differently. I was able to relate to the similarities between Christianity and Islam and I got many friends out of those conversations, some of which I still talk to via Facebook and email.

We never know how doors will be opened but there are definitely "many roads" that one can learn through to come to knowledge of the Messiah.

 

[Qnts2]

I hate it whenever you see the stories of other Muslims who've been trained based on bad theology to hate others who are Jewish....and yet thankfully, there've been countless Muslims throughout the centuries who've lived in peace with Jews and noted how others need to love them/support them---with them noting it multiple times how corrupt it is that others in the name of God seek to hate them. I'm always amazed at how those people get left out of the picture and others don't even take time to talk to them.

In previous times, when many countries were Church/State governments, in so-called Christian countries, there was a significant level of persecution against the Jewish people. Islamic countries were actually safer countries for the Jewish people.

I am not tremendously knowledgable about Islam, but I know that both Jewish people and Christians are called 'people of the book', meaning Jews and Gentile Christians are mentioned in the Tenakh and the NT. Hindu's who are not 'people of the book' were not allowed to live in Muslim countries. Jewish people and Christians were allowed to live in Muslim countries but had reduced rights and had to pay a special tax.

In many Muslim countries today, this has changed.

There is a Muslim book called the Hadith. Some accept this as authentic and some say it is not authentic. In the Hadith, it says that Islam must make war with the Jewish people in order for Allah's messenger to come. In this Islamic end times scenario, faithful Muslims must kill the Jewish people until the Jews hide behind bushes or rocks. And then even the bushes or rocks will cry out 'Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'.

Based on what to me is a shift in the views, it appears that some of the radical Islamic teachings are being taught as more mainstream in many middle eastern Muslim countries, so that there appears to be more anti-semitism.

Truthfully, I would love to be convinced that this is not as bad as it appears to me.

But, scripture says our war is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. The best thing that could happen is for the gospel to be shared with Muslims, and there be a revival with many Muslims coming to believe on Yeshua. Ex-Muslims who are now believers, are friends with the Jewish people. In order to share the gospel, we really need to stop accusing and demonizing the people, and start sharing the gospel.

At the same time, I do believe our governments who are responsible for defending their country and citizens need to be caughteous and prepared for the radical segment of Islam, which feels its duty is to make war against any non-Islamic country.

So, our role as believers is a different role with a different 'war' and different methods.

 

[visionary]

If they hate the Jews then they have nothing in common with Christianity. With some Christians, sadly yes, but not Christianity.

Sad but true... World Council of Churches support Islamic view on Palestine ...

http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/world-council-of-churches-support-islam-and-palestine/

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In previous times, when many countries were Church/State governments, in so-called Christian countries, there was a significant level of persecution against the Jewish people. Islamic countries were actually safer countries for the Jewish people.

Indeed. The Ottoman Empire is a good example of that....as well as other places. In the Ottoman Empire, Jews were often given great respect/influence, especially as it concerns trade and being merchants...and this is seen especially in the case of the Sephardic Jews. Many Jews found refuge and sanctuary in the Ottoman Empire...

• Ottoman Empire Jews
• Jewish-Muslim Relations Articler
• The Sephardim of the Ottoman Empire
• Jews in the Ottoman Empire 12: Communities
• Ottoman Sephardic Genealogy: An Introduction
• Treatment of Jews in the 19th Century Ottoman Khilafah
• Family Structure and Business Organization: Sephardic Merchants
• EARLY MODERN JEWISH HISTORY: Overview » 5. Ottoman Empire
• Blissful Years of The Jews in The Ottoman State - Fountain Magazine
• Sephardic Horizons | A Second Sephardic Golden Age: Economic ...

Adding to that, I'd also point out that there are many who are Muslim supporters of Israel: Muslims who support self-determination for the Jewish people, and a homeland for them in Israel. For more, one can go here or here to A Muslim Zionist or The Zionist Imam. Some Muslim clerics, such as Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, Director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community, and Imam Dr Muhammad Al-Hussaini, believe that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel, are in accordance with teachings of Islam (more here ). Notable Muslims who publicly support Zionism include Dr. Tawfik Hamid, Tashbih Sayyed, a Pakistani-American scholar, journalist, and author, and the Bangladeshi journalist Salah Choudhury. Additional Muslim people who voiced public support for Israel included figures such as Irshad Manji, Salim Mansur, Abdurrahman Wahid, Mithal al-Alusi, Abdullah Saad Al-Hadlaq, Zuhdi Jasser and Khaleel Mohammed.

• British Muslims for Israel
• From Israel Hater to Israel Supporter
• "What the Koran says about the land of Israel

Abdul Hadi Palazzi, leader of Italian Muslim Assembly and a co-founder and a co-chairman of the Islam-Israel Fellowship, quotes the Qur'an to support Judaism's special connection to the Temple Mount. According to Palazzi, "The most authoritative Islamic sources affirm the Temples,". He adds that Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims because of its prior holiness to Jews and its standing as home to the biblical prophets and kings David and Solomon, all of whom he says are sacred figures also in Islam. He claims that the Qur'an "expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays the same role for Jews that Mecca has for Muslims".

When asked what the Qur'an says about the State of Israel, Palazzi replied:

"The Qur'an cannot deal with the State of Israel as we know it today, since that State came into existing in 1948 only, i.e. many centuries after the Qur'an itself was revealed. However, the Qur'an specify that the Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that Land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein. It also announces that - before the end of the time - the Jewish people will come from many different countries to retake possession of that heritage of theirs. Whoever denies this actually denies the Qur'an itself. If he is not a scholar, and in good faith believes what other people say about this issue, he is an ignorant Muslim. If, on the contrary, he is informed about what the Qur'an and openly opposes it, he ceases to be a Muslim
​

Of course, those Muslims actually being consistent in their views have gotten A LOT of persecution brought their way. In 2004, Sarah Nasser, a Muslim college student in Canada known for her pro-Israel views, received death threats after expressing support for the Jewish state's right to exist. "Being a supporter of the existence of Israel does not conflict with Islam, it complements Islam," she said. "The Koran does not have any verses that do not allow for the Jews to return to the Land of Israel (...) "I love Jews as I love true Muslims," she said. "Therefore, I believe Jews should have a right to live legitimately in their homeland." More on her thoughts can be seen here in A pro-Israel Muslim speaks out

I am not tremendously knowledgable about Islam, but I know that both Jewish people and Christians are called 'people of the book', meaning Jews and Gentile Christians are mentioned in the Tenakh and the NT. Hindu's who are not 'people of the book' were not allowed to live in Muslim countries. Jewish people and Christians were allowed to live in Muslim countries but had reduced rights and had to pay a special tax.

In many Muslim countries today, this has changed.

In the event it was missed, the tax was never just applied to those who were Jews and Muslims. And with the tax, there were some historical concerns. For Muslims were paying Zakah (the annual charity) to the Islamic state, which was used for all sorts of services and social welfare. Zakah is an Islamic act of worship, but it is only for Muslims. In their view, it was fair to make non-Muslim citizens of the same state pay a similar (in fact, less) amount as a tax, since Zakah is not taken from them as it is taken from Muslims. ..and Jezyah was calculated in different ways throughout different eras (a certain amount of
money, certain percentage of the crops, etc), but it was consistently less than the Zakah, which every Muslim had to pay anyway (more found here ). As it has often been practiced, of course, dhimmitude is not something that others should really welcome

• Dhimmìtude: `Jews and Christians Under Islam
• Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide
• Raymond Ibrahim: Shariah, Dhimmitude & the Copts
• how they treated us and the dhimmi syndrome - ON COPTIC
• A Double-Bind Upon the Copts: Dhimmitude in Action - Ethos
• A New Year of 'Dhimmitude' for Egypt's Copts :: Middle East Fo
• Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide - Page 231 - Google

Dhimmitude was abolished from the Islamic world during the 19th and 20th centuries under European military pressure, or by direct European colonization. But it has recently made a resurgence -- along with jihad itself -- as a consequence of the Islamic wars in Sudan, the Philippines, Indonesia, Algeria, and Israel.

There is a Muslim book called the Hadith. Some accept this as authentic and some say it is not authentic. In the Hadith, it says that Islam must make war with the Jewish people in order for Allah's messenger to come. In this Islamic end times scenario, faithful Muslims must kill the Jewish people until the Jews hide behind bushes or rocks. And then even the bushes or rocks will cry out 'Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'.

Based on what to me is a shift in the views, it appears that some of the radical Islamic teachings are being taught as more mainstream in many middle eastern Muslim countries, so that there appears to be more anti-semitism.

Sad but true, as the shift for things toward Radical Islam has arisen. On the issue, I do think it should be noted that it is a common misunderstanding that Muslims are the only culprits of Religious extremism and persecution or anti-semitism. The Islamic extremists certainly get much press regarding their 7th century ways, and are rightly due the criticism they receive. Nonetheless, I always find it interesting that many would not have suspicions toward other groups who have also been violent even though they generally get the label of being the ones all others must be sensitive toward.

In example, a NY Times Article here, outlines some recent events growing commonplace in some Israeli neighborhoods. Orthodox Jews in Israel have been growing in numbers due to high birth rates, and are growing bold in their efforts to enforce ultra-conservative standards on other Jews, even violently so. Persecuting and harassing Messianic Christians and Muslims is not new for the Ultra-Orthodox, as some are even paid to protest and bother Christians as a job (see video), but it seems they are not satisfied just to alienate outsiders, as fellow Jews are also targets.

As another wisely noted:

Many of us are used to the stories of persecution from Muslim lands, strict communistic regimes and dictatorships. But, did you know that the 8-10,000 messianic Jews and other evangelicals in Israel are regularly persecuted by the Jewish population in Israel? Try here and here. Watch this story of a messianic Jew

​

Israeli Persecution of Christians in the Holy Land - 60 Minutes

Persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel - Part 1 of 2​

Persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel - Part 2 of 2​

I've written about this before here and here, you may be interested in the video detailing some Messianic Christians experience in the second link with arson, protests, and other abuses. Heartbreaking.
.
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is a Muslim book called the Hadith. Some accept this as authentic and some say it is not authentic. In the Hadith, it says that Islam must make war with the Jewish people in order for Allah's messenger to come. In this Islamic end times scenario, faithful Muslims must kill the Jewish people until the Jews hide behind bushes or rocks. And then even the bushes or rocks will cry out 'Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'.

Based on what to me is a shift in the views, it appears that some of the radical Islamic teachings are being taught as more mainstream in many middle eastern Muslim countries, so that there appears to be more anti-semitism.

As it concerns the rise of Radical Islam, I do find it relevant that many have noted that it tends to rise in areas where there's high impoverishment of communities/neglect and others who were turned off by what has been represented in Western Christianity.

As noted best elsewhere, "In Egypt, the Fundamentalists are recruited mostly from active youth in their twenties and thirties. They are university students and graduates who tend to be conscientious and ambitious. Furthermore, most of these recruits spent their childhood in villages and little
towns. Ahmad agrees that Fundamen- talism in Egypt is most appealing to these groups." Amazingly, many who went into Extreme Radical Islam came from backgrounds where they were either struggling with socioeconomic realities that were left unaddressed and thus the promise of spiritual blessings for giving their lives became appealing....or others were exchange students who saw A LOT of the ways that Western Culture/Western Christianity (very akin to the Crusades in their view) came in/demonized all in their world. One story I read about was heart-breaking when hearing of an exchange student who came over and was mistreated from day one, with other believers fearing him simply because of the Islamic background he grew up in---and others doing other things to him that made him feel that being a believer didn't really lead to one having concern for others.

For more, one can investigate A Christian Perspective on Islam and Terrorism by Rick Love, PhD (the International Director of Frontiers ).

But, scripture says our war is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. The best thing that could happen is for the gospel to be shared with Muslims, and there be a revival with many Muslims coming to believe on Yeshua. Ex-Muslims who are now believers, are friends with the Jewish people. In order to share the gospel, we really need to stop accusing and demonizing the people, and start sharing the gospel.

So true..


The book by Christine A. Mallouhi entitled "Waging Peace on Islam" (more here, here, here and here )has some excellent nuggets that've been helpful when it comes to ministry. Christine Mallouhi. Ms. Mallouhi was a Christian missionary to the Middle East for many years and writes that she found Muslim people to be the among the most compassionate and hospitable people she has ever known. Some Muslims even risked their own lives to protect her and her husband from their own Muslim governments. Their goal was to demonstrate the love of Jesus to Muslims and to convince them that Jesus was the way to God. They developed a deep love for their Muslim neighbors and many of their Muslim neighbors reciprocated that love.

Christine Mallouhi, in her book Waging Peace on Islam, tells the story of St. Francis of Assisi, who during the height of the Crusades traveled to Egypt and visited the Sultan Kamil (the nephew of the great Islamic leader Saladin). Francis came in humility and peace, in contrast to the conquering Crusaders. His approach and attitude so impressed the Muslim Sultan that he invited Francis to send his Little Brothers throughout his territory. It is out of this experience that we have perhaps Francis’s wisest counsel: “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.” He saw the dignity of God in every Muslim person. Such grace toward Muslims was radical in his day, and still is in ours..



In many ways, we are so busy protecting and defending God from humanity that we forget to be servants of Christ to humanity.....and we’re spending so much time protecting God and the Gospel from those who would deny it that we forget to lovingly live it out on a hourly basis.

At the same time, I do believe our governments who are responsible for defending their country and citizens need to be caughteous and prepared for the radical segment of Islam, which feels its duty is to make war against any non-Islamic country.

Indeed. Knowing how to address that and wage war properly is a big deal. Education is one of the biggest steps in doing so..

So, our role as believers is a different role with a different 'war' and different methods.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Great example easy. I've also had opportunities like this when I was in the Middle East... Based on how I was dressed.

.

Cool to know. Others may disagree...but I find the style of dress by many in the Middle East/Muslim (as well as Eastern Christian) culture to be beautiful (more shared here, here and here )

I was mostly on my own but when I did things with a larger group ( I was there with the Middle East studies program, purposefully studying inter-faith relations in the country...) my manner of dress made me stand separate from the other westerners. This open lots of doors because people would ask why I dressed differently. I was able to relate to the similarities between Christianity and Islam and I got many friends out of those conversations, some of which I still talk to via Facebook and email.

It's amazing how the way one dresses makes or breaks a lot of things..

We never know how doors will be opened but there are definitely "many roads" that one can learn through to come to knowledge of the Messiah

There's a good review on the issue of what you noted (from an Eastern Christian perspective)--as seen here at A Christian perspective on Islam | In Communion.

 

[Yusuphhai]

Some are in part Islamic Route. And some are in Non-Islamic Route, ex. my Irac CF friend Soroya who speaks Aramic.

Some Chinese Arabic Chritians like to quote Koran and MHMD to prove Bible is also revealed by Allah.

but in a statement of an international Arabic Chritian church:
"Yasu, Yashua, or Yasū'" يسوع are Christian Arabic pronunciations of the name of Jesus (as opposed to the Islamic Arabic name for Jesus of "Isa" عيس&#1609.

And intresting that a CF member's name is "Messianic Muslim".

 

[visionary]

Some are in part Islamic Route. And some are in Non-Islamic Route, ex. my Irac CF friend Soroya who speaks Aramic.

Some Chinese Arabic Chritians like to quote Koran and MHMD to prove Bible is also revealed by Allah.

but in a statement of an international Arabic Chritian church:
"Yasu, Yashua, or Yasū'" يسوع are Christian Arabic pronunciations of the name of Jesus (as opposed to the Islamic Arabic name for Jesus of "Isa" عيس&#1609.

And intresting that a CF member's name is "Messianic Muslim".

This might be a very interesting clue as to where their theology will take them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Some are in part Islamic Route. And some are in Non-Islamic Route, ex. my Irac CF friend Soroya who speaks Aramic.

Some Chinese Arabic Chritians like to quote Koran and MHMD to prove Bible is also revealed by Allah.

but in a statement of an international Arabic Chritian church:
"Yasu, Yashua, or Yasū'" يسوع are Christian Arabic pronunciations of the name of Jesus (as opposed to the Islamic Arabic name for Jesus of "Isa" عيس&#1609.

And intresting that a CF member's name is "Messianic Muslim".

Curious as to which member you're speaking of who is named "Messianic Muslim"...for I'm aware of Messianic Samaritan but haven't seen anyone else with "Messianic Muslim" as their moniker. That said, I've seen other Arabic Christians who chose to use the Arabic name Yasu and others use Isa as well (as mentioned earlier here in #34 ), similar to how Persian believers use the term. It really depends on where you go. Long before anything of Islam even came out, Arabic believers would say Allah in that they speak Arabic....as the word is the equivalent word to the English word 'God.' The difference is that Muslims have incorporated their word, 'Allah', into different languages as they spread out of the Arab world thereby causing some confusion, at least for non-Arab Christians who encounter this for the first time.

Allah predates Islam. In fact, it predates Christianity. Isa has pre-Islamic roots, but it was popularized by the Quran's adoption of it. IMHO, the argument against saying Isa is a bit silly. Words like "Gott" and "Theos" have non-Christian roots but we use them anyway. Persian (farsi) speaking Christians call Him Isa (pronounced Eesa). They say 'Isa Pasih' (Jesus Messiah) to differentiate Him from 'Isa ibn maryam' (Jesus son of mary). The Copts I know also use variations of "Allah Ahkbar" which of course means "God is Great" or conversely when used after a bad experience means something like "What else can be done but praise God?"..For Oriental Orthodoxy, in Amharic, this is a cognate of the word ክብር (Keber) which can be translated roughly as "honor, glory, praise" depending on the context, in the Liturgy their priests chant.

"Sibhat wekibir yidelu lesilus qidus Ab WeWeld WeMenfes Qidus.." (Glory and Honor are Due to the Holy Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit)

In other hymns others have heard them say "Yasu" but I don't know if "Isa" is ruled out.

 

[Yusuphhai]

Curious as to which member you're speaking of who is named "Messianic Muslim"...for I'm aware of Messianic Samaritan but haven't seen anyone else with "Messianic Muslim" as their moniker. That said, I've seen other Arabic Christians who chose to use the Arabic name Yasu and others use Isa as well (as mentioned earlier here in #34 ), similar to how Persian believers use the term. It really depends on where you go. Long before anything of Islam even came out, Arabic believers would say Allah in that they speak Arabic....as the word is the equivalent word to the English word 'God.' The difference is that Muslims have incorporated their word, 'Allah', into different languages as they spread out of the Arab world thereby causing some confusion, at least for non-Arab Christians who encounter this for the first time.

Allah predates Islam. In fact, it predates Christianity. Isa has pre-Islamic roots, but it was popularized by the Quran's adoption of it. IMHO, the argument against saying Isa is a bit silly. Words like "Gott" and "Theos" have non-Christian roots but we use them anyway. Persian (farsi) speaking Christians call Him Isa (pronounced Eesa). They say 'Isa Pasih' (Jesus Messiah) to differentiate Him from 'Isa ibn maryam' (Jesus son of mary). The Copts I know also use variations of "Allah Ahkbar" which of course means "God is Great" or conversely when used after a bad experience means something like "What else can be done but praise God?"..For Oriental Orthodoxy, in Amharic, this is a cognate of the word ክብር (Keber) which can be translated roughly as "honor, glory, praise" depending on the context, in the Liturgy their priests chant.

"Sibhat wekibir yidelu lesilus qidus Ab WeWeld WeMenfes Qidus.." (Glory and Honor are Due to the Holy Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit)

In other hymns others have heard them say "Yasu" but I don't know if "Isa" is ruled out.

thanks for the knowlege I don't know.maybe "Messianic Muslim" has left CF.To me the pronounciation of Yeshua in different languages and cultures can be tolerant.

 

[Yusuphhai]

“Messianic Gentile Rabbi”, can this identity be really true?
And I know a Pakistani Messianic Gentile Rabbi and professor Simon Altaf, who was originally a Muslim. On his web site he said:&#8221; Islam is a way of no salvation, but God of Abraham is the way, the truth and bring salvation. One of his writings is <<Islam, Peace or Beast>>.He thought the most powerful end time beast (in Daniel the two legs and toes of the huge Image )referred to Islam but not revived Roman Empire.
It is a pity that now we can not view his web site &#8220;Arahamic Faith&#8221; for unknown reason.

 

[visionary]

“Messianic Gentile Rabbi”, can this identity be really true?
And I know a Pakistani Messianic Gentile Rabbi and professor Simon Altaf, who was originally a Muslim. On his web site he said:” Islam is a way of no salvation, but God of Abraham is the way, the truth and bring salvation. One of his writings is <<Islam, Peace or Beast>>.He thought the most powerful end time beast (in Daniel the two legs and toes of the huge Image )referred to Islam but not revived Roman Empire.
It is a pity that now we can not view his web site “Arahamic Faith” for unknown reason.

It would not surprise me, now that I am watching our way of life erode with every passing step towards Islam ideology, theology, political maneuver, and out right physical attacks. We are seeing more and more give ins to this movement and even in the blatant evidence of its violent nature, some think we can tame this beast with lots of petting. Now the second question is, who gets to ride this beast?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

&#8220;Messianic Gentile Rabbi&#8221;, can this identity be really true?

If you're speaking of a poster.

And I know a Pakistani Messianic Gentile Rabbi and professor Simon Altaf, who was originally a Muslim. On his web site he said:&#8221; Islam is a way of no salvation, but God of Abraham is the way, the truth and bring salvation. One of his writings is <<Islam, Peace or Beast>>.He thought the most powerful end time beast (in Daniel the two legs and toes of the huge Image )referred to Islam but not revived Roman Empire. It is a pity that now we can not view his web site &#8220;Arahamic Faith&#8221; for unknown reason.

That's is the right of that individual to see it as such, as do others. Demonstrating such, however, is another matter entirely. To be clear, there've been MULTIPLE cases of others saying that certain groups or demoninations were the End-Times Beast in every generation---and it was often debunked. Be it with others thinking the aggressive Communist Regime of the U.S.S.R (which was atheistic and persecuting Christians, more here / here ) was the End-Times BEast, or others thinking the even the U.S.A was the End-Times BEast (especially when looking at many of the Rapture/"Left Behind" narratives, more here and here)...or others assuming that it was somehow the entire Catholic Church around the world that was the End-Times Beast...and many others with a wide range of views that started to come into existence decades ago. One man did a good job of addressing the many fallacies involved in trying to assume that the End-Times Beast will somehow be either Islam or Muslim (as seen here), although I still disagree with many of his other conclusions.

One good resource on the issue: 16 Reasons why Islam is Not the Kingdom of The Antichrist-

Preterism, with its differing camps, has an entirely different perspective in seeing the ways that many of the descriptions of things such as "anti-Christ" or "end-times" needs to be seen within the 1st century perspective that early believers had...for as another said best, &#8220;It is unbiblical to use the term &#8216;Antichrist&#8217; for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70&#8221; (Gary DeMar, Last Days Madness, p.204).

What of the apostles&#8217; prediction of departure from the faith in the last days in II Thessalonians 2:3; II Timothy 3, 4; II Peter 2; and I John 2:18, 19? What of the apostle&#8217;s warning of a coming Antichrist in II Thessalonians 2? What of the apostle&#8217;s alerting the saints to an impending tribulation as an element of those things that must shortly come to pass before the coming of the Lord, in the book of Revelation, e.g., 3:10; 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 11:1-12; 12:17; 13; 14:9-13;15:2; 16; 17; 19:2, 19-21; and 20:4, 7-10? The answer given by the postmillennialist, particularly the &#8220;Christian Reconstructionist&#8221; (such as Gary DeMar, who asked for this biblical defense of amillennialism), to all of these astonished questions by the Christian is that all of the prophecies of apostasy, Antichrist, and tribulation have already been fulfilled in many ways. Many feel that all was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. Again, postmillennialist Gary DeMar writes, &#8220;It is unbiblical to use the term &#8216;Antichrist&#8217; for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70&#8221; (Last Days Madness, p.204).

• Gary DeMar : Last Days Madness (1999) Free Online Books ...

IMHO, I think it's best to remember that not all aspects of the NEW Covenant have been fulfilled in our own liftetime, of course...as it concerns Christ rulling over the world/reigning and the enemy being destroyed fully from existence---and for those saying ALL aspects of the NEW Covenant have taken place, there needs to be some reconsideration (IMHO). I think there's validity in saying many things Yeshua prophesied have occurred, in line with the view known as Preterism (as discussed in #54 and #74 )...but there are variations of that, with some feeling that many things have taken place while other things are yet to come.


If interested, this is a debate on the issue that was very informative...from Messianc Jew, Dr. Michael Brown.

• --Brown Discusses Preterism with Dr. Gary DeMar : Line of Fire ( )

Dr. Brown is a Messianic Jewish apologist and one of the foremost scholars on the subject of Jewish culture/thought, as well as one who's a Futurist...whereas Dr.Demar is a Preterist (Partial Preterist) who is has long had an issue with much of what's discussed within the "Left Behind"/End Times eschatology. Dr Brown is someone whom many of my friends/family have either known or worked with personally...whereas Dr. Demar is someone who used to teach at my highschool when I was a freshman.

The discussion was very cordial and it was wonderful to see how they discussed many differing issues that are often not acknowledged in certain circles, making clear that not everything with Preterism is automatically to be shunned and deemed "heresy"/deception. For there are many variations of Preterism---and other Preterists have often denounced some forms of it as an issue.

For other articles that may be of interest to you, one can go online/investigate the following--as they deal with many scriptures on the subject that are good for study:

• --"Evidence for Christianity - Is Partial Preterism wrong?" ( )
• In the partial Preterist view is there a literal antichrist? - Page 2
• --"A.D. 70, Preterism and the Holocaust « The Rosh Pina Project" ( )
• --"The &#8220;Christus Victor&#8221; View of the Atonement » Atonement » Jesus ..." ( )
• What is the right way to interpret Revelation?" << Christus Victor Ministires << Gregory Boyd
• Sinking the Ship of "Full Preterism": Torpedo #1 Some Unfinished Business << Was the destruction of ' the only "end" the New Testament talked about? Did the year AD 70 mark the end of the Biblical story?

Of late, I have tended to find the Preterist view compelling..and personally, I am very much against much of the sensationalism being witnessed within the world due to a Futurist mindset of End Times. Thus, I tend to combine some parts of Preterism with other viewpoints at times---though I'm still debating the Futurist Mindset when it comes to the tribulation/other events. For many, the fact that many CHristians are being persecuted around the world still in GREAT numbers is evidence that a tribulation has already occurred. Many are of the mindset that we already have a world one government---and a GLOBAL Anti-Christ system established through the media/t.v. When seeing how much destruction has occurred with human trafficking and child sex slaves, as well as wars of many kinds, I think it'd be safe to say that we're definately in the end..

But techincally, the end has already been in place since Jesus rose and went to Heaven. Every generation thought they were the end--and that's something I have to square with.

A good place to go for review would be "Jewish and Christian Biblical Studies @ PreteristArchive.com" ( "http://www.preteristarchive.com/Bibl...lls/index.html ). Learned of it awhile ago, concerning how believing that one generation was the last one was something that was present in the Jewish culture---especially in the group known as the Essenes since they felt that they were God's Chosen and that the Lord would come to redeem them as they waited out for him. Being much fewer in number than the Pharisees and the Sadducees (the other two major sects at the time), it was the Esscenes from whom the Dead Sea Scrolls were written from&#8212;-as they fled the corruption they saw rampant in Jerusalem/the religious groups of their day as they fought one another&#8212;and in an effort to avoid corruption, they fled the &#8220;politics&#8221;/went into the desert of Quarman. Similar to the Pharisees, the Essenes saw themselves as God&#8217;s elect in whom He was secretly working and whom He will vindicate when He finally cleanses the Temple, fulfilling His promises & restoring true worship while also putting back the right people in power and bringing redemption to unredeemed Israel. However, they had differing views on socio-political actions.

For whereas the Sadducees believed in seizing/maintaining political power for themselves&#8230;while the Pharisees were somewhat similar, the Esscenes lived very simple/communal lifestyles&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;proclaiming by their actions that, though they longed for the liberation of Israel, they were simply going to wait and allow the Lord to bring it to pass in His own time. They felt God will act in His own ways and was, in fact, already acting secretly through them and their quiet devotional practices rather than as other parties acted. When the resurrection happened, the Essenes&#8212;seeing themselves as the recipients of God&#8217;s future eschatological benefits, naturally believed that having shown their faithfulness to God during the exile/not engaging in either hatred of others or violence, they would be reestablished as the true Israel.

One of his writings is <<Islam, Peace or Beast>>.He thought the most powerful end time beast (in Daniel the two legs and toes of the huge Image )referred to Islam but not revived Roman Empire.

Interestingly enough, it's interesting considering the the similarities between Islamic prophecies of al Mahdi and Christian prophecies of the anti-Christ. Both are said to come on the scene during a time of great turmoil on Earth, both come claiming a desire to restore peace, both have a seven year reign, both head a one world religion and one world government, both claim supernatural origins, and in both cases their reign is prophesied to end in a battle between good and evil that brings Earth&#8217;s final judgment. It almost sounds as if they&#8217;re the same person.

Ultimately, the central thing that often gets left out is addressing how believers should respond at ALL times. Sadly, many people tend to go with the mistaken ideology that walking in peace/fellowship equates to giving ground to others---and yet, there's a blantant double-standard of ignoring the example of Christ (as well as the apostles) who did the same when it came to the explict command to love others/seek to walk in peace

Luke 6:31
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 &#8220;If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Romans 12:16
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone

Titus 3
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

Hebrews 12:13
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
​

That is an explicit command of Christ and what was lived out/documented within the early church, many feeling that the current Roman Empire was the "beast" in their time...and yet that didn't change their own actions toward their neighbors when it came to walking respectfully/seeking peace with others. If we're going to follow Yeshua, we need to follow Yeshua and stop with the fear-mongering..be it in the claims of saying all Muslims/followers in Islam are inherently violent by nature (which is slanderous) or saying that all freedoms given to believers are being taken away in the U.S in favor of Muslims (which is also untrue and without a shred of credibe evidence) or claiming that working within governments that are Islamic/being a believer in that context means that one cannot follow Christ.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

thanks for the knowlege I don't know.maybe "Messianic Muslim" has left CF.To me the pronounciation of Yeshua in different languages and cultures can be tolerant.

Tried to look the man up, but was not able to do so. As it concerns pronounciations of Yeshua in differing languages, it is always amazing to see how many variations can occur. Allah is also the word for G-d in the Indonesian language. One man I know had a wife who was Indonesian and a Christian, and it was always a trip seeing how Indonesian Christians also call G-d Allah, not only the Muslims. One of my friends expressed it best elsewhere, as seen here in What's a poor Arabic-speaking Christian to do?

Also, for a good resource, one can go to Krisis & Praxis » Blog Archive » Allah and Bible Translation Again: New Light from an Ancient Manuscript and Allah Word: The Bare Historical Facts Presented/ Foreign Vocabulary and Loan Words in the Quran: Historical Facts and Academic Resources on Pre-Islamic Use of Allah

 

[Yusuphhai]

thanks for the insight Easy G and Visionary. I can understand Muslim a little, my grandfather was a leader of local Muslim group, but i was educated by Atheism when I was a child. I hope the culture of Middle East can be separated from the religion which MHMD created, although it is very hard, even harder than separate Chinese culture from the communism.

About the relationship among Judaism, Islam and Christianity, my friend a Chinese Jewish Yaakov(now live in US)has his viewpoint. just for reference.

quoted from Yaakov:
For the situation you described, I am not able to foresee it according to my knowledge because I know there is an unbreakable barrier lying between Christianity and Judaism. We had very good times with Islam in ancient times and I believe we will finally have peace with each other again in future. However, for Christianity, even we are enjoying peace with each other for a short period of time, we have to try very hard &#8211; for the Truth sake &#8211; to get along well with each other. Unless someday the barrier is removed, it&#8217;s very hard for these two religions to get even closer.
Of course, I talked from a religious perspective. For individual relationship between this two groups of people, people can become friends no matter what. This is the reason why I really enjoy many of my Christian friends despite we hold very different opinions toward some issues.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

thanks for the insight Easy G and Visionary. I can understand Muslim a little, my grandfather was a leader of local Muslim group, but i was educated by Atheism when I was a child. I hope the culture of Middle East can be separated from the religion which MHMD created, although it is very hard, even harder than separate Chinese culture from the communism.

Many have often noted that an even greater threat than anything else is Transhumanism (more here and here) and Secular Humanism, with the former on the rise and growing in control of much in the world---from human genetic enhancements/claiming to improve the human condition and doing a lot of messing with things/trying to get patents on biological elements (be it with Monsanto in its work with food or others working with gene therapy/finding ways to alter humanity in its evolution, regulation on human repopulation, eugenic population control, etc). In many ways, we're moving towards an alternative humanity: transhuman existence. This is based more on the technological than the biological. Scientific advances are enabling what once was purely science-fiction to become reality (take cybernetic limbs for example). We are spending increasingly more time interacting with computers than directly with other humans. How then will our ethics and laws alter to cope with these kinds of changes, and what impact will it have on our humanity?

Many have been discussing the ways that a lot of the people working with trying to get patents on human genes are Transhumanist on differing levels......and that's one reason why it's so scarey.


Militant Atheism is what often tends to come about from those venues....as well as social darwinism amongst other things (similar to the Eugenics programs hailed by Hitler in the Holocaust, alongside Margret Sanger in her plans for minorities in America with the Negro Project...and of course, the ways that Stalinism arose once Germany was defeated)....although I will say it's interesting seeing the ways that Hitler himself interacted with people from Radical Islam (a real threat)---for he worked with others who were leaders in radical Islam such as the Grand Mufti ( the highest official of religious law in a Sunni or Ibadi Muslim country), Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini (more shared here, here, here and here )---more shared at Haj Amin Al-Husseini - Nazi collaborator and model for today's Islamists - Militant Islam Monitor andHitler's Mufti | Catholic Answers. There was a good documentary one of the messianic leaders of my fellowship showed me when we did a study on Islam/the dangers to be aware of.....and it was interesting seeing the hate that hate produces:

Nazi Collaborators - The Grand Mufti​

Granted, other Grand Muftis of today have denounced violence on multiple fronts (more here, here, here and here )--although it is still a serious issue to see others proclaimign violence. Palestinian Grand Mufti shocked Israel when it came to Fatah’s Muhammad Hussein urging killing Jews...(more here , here and here /here)..and sadly, many assume that anti-semitism agaisnt the Jewish people by radical Muslims is an indicator that all Arabs are the same way---and that is an error that has grave consequences when it comes to ignoring the many Arabs (be it Arab Christians or non-believing Arabs ) who've NEVER supported things done by the Grand Mufti during the time of Hitler.

I grieve for the many ways Arabs who've been working with Jews/having solid relationship and interaction are harmed whenever it comes to extremists doing things in the names of Arabs---and it sadly muddies things up, especially as it concerns the ways many Jews have been actively fighting on behalf of peace/reconcilliation for Jews and Arabs collectively

About the relationship among Judaism, Islam and Christianity, my friend a Chinese Jewish Yaakov(now live in US)has his viewpoint. just for reference.

quoted from Yaakov:

For the situation you described, I am not able to foresee it according to my knowledge because I know there is an unbreakable barrier lying between Christianity and Judaism. We had very good times with Islam in ancient times and I believe we will finally have peace with each other again in future. However, for Christianity, even we are enjoying peace with each other for a short period of time, we have to try very hard – for the Truth sake – to get along well with each other. Unless someday the barrier is removed, it’s very hard for these two religions to get even closer.
Of course, I talked from a religious perspective. For individual relationship between this two groups of people, people can become friends no matter what. This is the reason why I really enjoy many of my Christian friends despite we hold very different opinions toward some issues.

Good perspective. There was another thread elsewhere that sought to discuss the issue as it concerns the ways Christians/Muslims had extensive times of peace/working together---with militant action often being the cause of social unrest on both sides, if going to the thread entitled Syria: Orthodox Christians Wary of Their Future in Post-Assad Regime

I'm reminded of the film "Kingdom of Heaven" when it comes to seeing the interactions between groups.

A Valuable Lesson
I put no stock in religion - Kingdom of Heaven


In the event you've never seen the movie, as said best by "Kingdom of Heaven: Plugged In Online Movie Reviews

A fragile peace rules Jerusalem in the late 12th century after the Christian king, Baldwin IV, declares a truce with the great Muslim leader, Saladin. Christian, Jew and Muslim are all welcome to worship as they please in the city. That accord is threatened, however, by zealous Knights Templar who, under the guise of Christianity, want to pillage and plunder. Saladin also faces pressure from Muslim zealots in his ranks, who chafe at the idea of Jerusalem, site of their sacred al-Aqsa mosque, under the control of "infidels."

​

In the meantime, Balian, a humble blacksmith in France, mourns the death of his wife and infant child, believing that God has abandoned him in his loss. After a group of Crusaders rides into his village, Balian learns that he is the illegitimate son of a knight, Godfrey of Ibelin, who wants his son to join him in the Holy Land. Seeking redemption for his own soul and his wife’s—she committed suicide and he therefore believes she is currently in hell—Balian joins his father on a trek to Jerusalem.

Once in the great city, Balian finds himself smack in the middle of palace intrigue. King Baldwin is dying of leprosy, and he does not want the kingdom handed to the treacherous Guy de Lusignan, who is married to the king’s sister, Sibylla. (Guy and his right-hand man, Reynald de Chatillon, are leaders of the knights who want to break the truce with Saladin.) For her part, Sibylla would just as soon be rid of her loutish husband anyway, and the dashing Balian looks like a good candidate for new king—and husband. ​

But because Balian, like his father, believes the Holy Land should be a "kingdom of conscience," he will have nothing to do with such scheming. As pressure for war grows and Saladin prepares to lay siege to Jerusalem, Balian strives to do the right thing.​

.............The Crusades are a blot on Christian history. The idea that God would will that military force be used to retake the city of Jerusalem for Christendom, as Pope Urban II claimed in launching the First Crusade in 1095, is contrary to Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 26:52. "’Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to [Peter], ’for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’" And while for most Christians the Crusades—there were eight in all—are ancient history, to some Muslims they are as fresh as yesterday’s insult. That is why Osama bin Laden can so easily invoke the image of "Crusaders" when he rallies al-Qaeda terrorists to strike Westerners. It’s also why advisers quickly told President Bush to drop the word crusade from his speeches about the war against terrorism. ​

​

History wise, the ways that Christians interacted with others hasn't always been the best...and it's no surprise that times got tough

The Third Crusade: Saladin & Richard the Lionheart Documentary

 

[visionary]

In my mind, the minute you act out of character for Yeshua, is the minute that it is not right that it is done in His name.