I have been hearing that the latest thing among more liberal Muslims is the profession of Christ. What is your opinion?
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Diakoneo10
V.: to serve, attend, or wait upon
I was familiar with this while I was in Egypt. It does happen. I don't know any doctrinal specifics but the faiths do share many historical simularities so it is possible to blend them.
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Agreed. My own Messianic fellowship just did a conference series on the issue of outreach with Muslims based on what we've experienced, be it with others evangelizing or working with those who are Muslim. I've discussed elsewhere when it comes to those who are Messianic Muslims... and Muslim outreach in areas where believers have often had to do battle with those who are extremist and don't allow others to practice freely (as shared here in #70 , #74 , #25 and #21 ). People often seem to have very little understanding of what it means to come from one background/express appreciation for it and yet be in another faith and advocate for that one---or how to practice your faith in areas where your options are limited. There was an excellent book I was going through that has been excellent on the issue, entitled "The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross" ( ), which has been really helpful whenever it comes to working with Muslims and seeing the extensive ways outreach is done amongst them and how they often interact with others. (more here , here, here, here and here/here).
A lot of times, people unaware of how things are in certain areas may get afraid. Seen it often whenever there are accusations brought up about people practicing Chrislam if anything is mentioned about Muslim-Background Believers. ..or assuming the worse about all who are Sons of Ishmael (as if they're all "cursed" as many claim with what the Lord blessed him with in Genesis 16).
The term "Chrislam" itself, also called "The Will of God Mission, The True Message of God Mission" or Oke-Tude which means The Mountain of Loosing Bondage in Yoruba, is a Nigerian syncretic religion which mixes elements of both Christianity and Islam. That is something that often gets lost in discussion whenever it comes to contexualizing the Gospel within Islamic contexts....and it's no different than assuming the folks at Westboro Baptist (who hate homosexuals/protest their funerals) happen to be believers/representives of Christ simply because they're said to be within the camp of Christianity.
When people take what happened in Nigeria (which I vehemently disagree with) and procedd to say all aspects of Islam itself can never be agreed to/acknowledged as verifying Biblical truth, that's an issue...for that's not the same as saying that all aspects of Islam are the same as Christianity or that the Quran itself is fully inspired as the Bible (as Chrislam does).
As it concerns Chrislam, I'm not really in favor of it...though I'm glad for others noting that just because one's a Messianic Muslim doesn't automatically mean they're in the camp of Chrislam (even though it can go there if one's not careful).
This came up recently in regards to Rick Warren when he was accussed of Chrislam simply for his stances on forming relationships/dialouges. Most folks looked at Rick Warren as well as others and seem to be for what's known as Islamaphobia..and they really do an injustice to other believers who've lived in Islamic controlled nations/have had to know how to live out Titus 3 in working with others...knowing how to form RELATIONSHIPS with others rather than ignore those who may be lost. The actions of believers in the early church toward the lost were FAR more extreme than what Rick and others have done---and I'm glad Rick has been seeking to do as he did. Those saying Rick Warren supports Chrislam simply because he seeks to love Muslims really don't know what the term entails and they use it incorrectly...and slander in the process.
For more info, one can go online/look up the following under the respective title:
From Orange County Register:
The effort, informally dubbed King's Way, caps years of outreach between Warren and Muslims. Warren has broken Ramadan fasts at a Mission Viejo mosque, met Muslim leaders abroad and addressed 8,000 Muslims at a national convention in Washington D.C.
Saddleback worshippers have invited Muslims to Christmas dinner and played interfaith soccer at a picnic in Irvine attended by more than 300 people. (The game pitted pastors and imams against teens from both faiths. The teens won.)
Saddleback worshippers have invited Muslims to Christmas dinner and played interfaith soccer at a picnic in Irvine attended by more than 300 people. (The game pitted pastors and imams against teens from both faiths. The teens won.)
As Warren said best:
The so-called "Chrislam" rumor is 100% false. If the guy who started this libelous myth, or anyone else who passed it on, had obeyed our Lord's command (Matt. 18:18-20) to come directly to me, and then asked what I actually believed – they would have been embarrassed to learn that I believe the exact opposite. As a 4th generation Christian pastor, my life & ministry is built on the truth that Jesus is the only way, and our inerrant Bible is our only true authority.
As an evangelist, I spend much of my time speaking to non-Christian groups. You cannot win your enemies to Christ; only your friends, so we must build bridges of friendship and love to those who believe differently so Jesus can walk across that bridge into their hearts. Besides, it is not a sin, but rather COMMANDED by Jesus that we love our enemies. In the past 10 years, Saddleback Church has baptized over 22,000 new adult believers – simply because we express love to those who don’t know Christ yet.
It is nonsense to believe that you must compromise your beliefs, or water down your convictions in order to love someone, or even just treat them with dignity.
Jesus was called "the friend of sinners" by the legalistic Pharisees because he hung out with (and clearly loved) unbelievers. I HOPE YOU will 1) Always believe that EVERYONE needs Jesus as their Lord & Savior. 2) Have the courage to associate with nonbelievers in order to love them and bring them to the Savior. 3) Consider being called "a friend of sinners" a Christ-like compliment. 4) Refuse to pass on rumors until you've checked for the truth with the person accused. The false statements above should be removed.
God bless you.
Rick Warren
For others saying it's wrong to work with others in Islam (as was noted with the accusations against people like Rick Warren), where I disagree is that people never go the entire way with it/seperate themselves from ALL people in existence who do not believe as they do or hold their values. I followed up with the accusations made on Rick Warren--and not surprisingly, alot of the fuss seemed to be over-exaggerated since all he was coming from was that we live next to others/need to know how to interact, just as we are to do with all people. I Peter 2 makes EXPLICITLY clear that we're to honor all men, including the Emperor...and for Peter to say that in a time where persecution was high/ignited by an emeperor who HATED Christians is kkey.
Also, I Corinthians 5 speaks on that matter when Paul notes how he never commanded others to disconnect from all in the world, lest they'd have to leave entirely. And the Biblical example is NOT one where believers demand others believe as they do in order to work alongside of them. Jesus lived life/worked with others who denied His Divinity as well as did not follow the Lord---and yet he existed. And yet he still did as he commanded others in loving His enemies/doing good to those harming him...being a Peace Maker in his actions.
Some of it, is similar to what occurred when Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire and other empires had similar dynamics, with it being the case that others were not trying to take away the right of others to practice/believe/declare their religious views as they wish....but more so about letting others do as they do so long as belief in God/Jesus was dominant while the believers had freedom to do as they wished.
By default, anyone practicing a religion other than one devoted to Christ "pushes" their view, be it in passive ways or aggressive, since their choosing not to follow Christ places them in the category of saying that he's somehow wrong/not worth following....but there's a way to go about it thankfully when it comes to living alongside others worshipping other gods just as we live alongside people in our neighborhoods down the street---all of whom have differing beliefs, interesting perspectives and stories to tell of how they see the world. Hearing of it should not always be a threat to believers...
When it comes to contexualizing faith in Yeshua within a Islamic or Muslim worldview, there are grades/variations, just as it is with those who are Messianic Jews and how there's the potential for many claiming to be "Messianic Jewish"/loving Judaic worldviews to ending up in either full blown Rabbinical Judaism..or camps in Judaism that deny Jesus is the Messiah/go into odd practices (like with Kabbalah). One poster discussed the issue more so here (even though he disagrees with insider movements in general)--and I'm glad for the work of others such as Joseph Cumming when it comes to the ways they've clarified the varities that can occur when doing evangelism, as noted here.
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Diakoneo10
V.: to serve, attend, or wait upon
Lol no they are still referred to as Muslims because, like Catholicism, one is born into being a Muslim or Muslima. Most of the time they will meet together in house churches or on occasion go to a Coptic or Orthodox church if they live in the major cities. Whether or not they ever "come out" as a Christ follower to their families would depend on the individual family. (I'm speaking of my experiences in Cairo and Alexandria only, I don't know about the traditions of other places throughout the middle east or abroad.) they also blend the Qu'ran and the Old Testament (which they already use for the most part) in with the New Testament so most Muslim followers would still identify with Mo'hammad and his teachings as well.
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Diakoneo10
V.: to serve, attend, or wait upon
Easy G (G²);61623569 said:
Love this and love Rick Warren. When I was in Egypt I attended mosque every Friday and went to a Coptic church on Sunday. There was always great dialogue between my escort, who was a Muslim man, the Muslima's with me at mosque and those who went to the coptic church. One big difference is that, like Orthodoz Judaism, Islam seperates the sexes in worship and teaching, so attending a coptic church was a rare opportunity for man and wife to be together during teaching. Most i talked to enjoyed this and said they learned more together and had a better experience, although some (mostly older) did say it was a distraction...
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Interesting to consider what you noted on seperating sexes...as I've gone to a Coptic Orthodox Church before when others from my Messianic fellowship visited with the Egyptian believers that our leadership had good relationship with (as shared here in #37 )--and they had the genders seperated by pews, with the women on one side and the men on the other side of the isle. It was awesome, considering that it's most likely what Paul was speaking of in I Timothy 2 when it came to the issue of women not being silent in the fellowship (as that occurred in that culture and having to ask a husband across the isle would mean having to yell/disrupt the meeting).
That said, it is indeed interesting to see the ways that relationship has occurred for others abroad...as what you noted is similar to what many others have experienced on the mission field as well. What you said reminded me of the old saying "Not all roads lead to God---but God can meet us on any road." If you've ever heard of the book entitled "The Shack" (more discussed here) , the book at one point noted how God denied that all roads lead to him (since most roads lead nowhere) but says instead, “I will travel any road to find you.” This is definately something I do see taking place within the Muslim world in regards to the many ways the Lord has come to others/used certain things as points of connection to lead Muslims to Christ....including ministry to others as expressed with believers choosing to go where Muslims are/actually form relationships...just as Christ did often when hanging with tax-collectors and sinners (Luke 15 a prime example).
Despite the long and well-known history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, their mystical traditions--especially in the Christian East and in Sufism (more here, here, here, here, here, here , here, here, here , here, here, here and here/ here / )--have shared for centuries many of the same spiritual methods and goals....and on that, its interesting to consider how things often connect. And on the issue of connections, I'm reminded of a solid book on the issue that one can go online and look up under the name of "From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East" ( )
Its by William Dalrymple, who is a Catholic who went/explored the East for some time. His book traces the Eastern Orthodox congregations scattered across the Middle East from their ancient origins, reviews how they have fared under centuries of Islamic rule, and discusses the complex relationship between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity in the region. As said in the book (for an excerpt):
Across the length of what was once the former Ottoman Empire the twentieth century has seen, with the rise of education, self-consciousness and modern nationalism, the bloody unravelling of that complex tapestry - most recently and painfully in Bosnia, but before that in Cyprus, Palestine, Greece and Turkey. In each of these places pluralism has been replaced by a savage polarisation. In drips and drabs, and sometimes in great tragic exoduses, religious minorities have fled to places where they can be majorities, and those too few for that have fled the region altogether, seeking out places less heavy in history such as America and Australia. If the twentieth century has seen Europe change to a multicultural society, the same period has seen country after country in the Middle East change in the opposite direction, to a series of monolithic monoethnic blocks.
Only in a few places such as Syria does the old intricate patchwork survive, but in these areas the old ways can be found surviving still. Shortly after seeing Muslims coming en masse to pray in the Christian basilica at Seidnaya, I saw Christians coming to sacrifice a sheep at the shrine of a Muslim saint in the ruins of the old Byzantine city of Cyrrhus, north west of Aleppo. I was told that a Syrian Orthodox girl struck down by some apparently incurable sickness had had a dream telling her to visit the shrine of Nebi Uri at Cyrrhus. She had done so, spent the night in his shrine, and the next day had been healed.
The sheep, which was covered with flowers and ribbons like the Old Testament scapegoat, was being slaughtered as an offering.
"We believe that if you are generous and give a good sheep to fulfil your vow," said the Sufi Sheik who presided over the shrine, "then you will ride that sheep at the Day of Judgement. That sheep will carry you into Paradise."
"And the Christians believe this too?" I asked
"There is no difference between ourselves and the Christians on this matter," said the Sheik, "except that sometimes the Christians make the sign of Christ over the forehead of the person want cured."
Again and again in the Middle East I came across this extraordinary Christian-Muslim syncretism, this porousness of faith, where the ideas, practices and superstitions of one religion have trickled imperceptibly into another. But there was something else too. It wasn't just that in many places Christianity and Islam were still managing to coexist: seeing them together, and seeing the way the Eastern Christians practised their faith, brought home quite how closely the two faiths are really linked.
Today the West often views Islam as a civilisation very different from and indeed innately hostile to Christianity. Only when you travel in Christianity's Eastern homelands do you realise how closely the two are really connected, the former growing directly out of the latter and still, to this day, embodying many aspects and practices of the early Christian world now lost in Christianity's modern Western-based incarnation. When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies, they assumed that Islam was merely an heretical form of Christianity, and in many ways they were not so far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets.
Significantly, the greatest and most subtle theologian of the early church, St. John Damascene, was convinced that Islam was at root not a separate religion, but instead a form of Christianity. St. John had grown up in the Ummayad Arab court of Damascus, where his father was chancellor, and he was an intimate boyhood friend of the future Caliph al-Yazid; the two boys' drinking bouts in the streets of Damascus were the subject of much horrified gossip in the streets of the new Islamic capital.
Later, in his old age, John took the habit at the desert monastery of Mar Saba where he began work on his great masterpiece, a refutation of heresies entitled the Fount of Knowledge. The book contains an extremely precise and detailed critique of Islam, the first ever written by a Christian, which, intriguingly, John regarded as a form of Christian heresy related to Arianism: after all Arianism, like Islam, denied the divinity of Christ. Although he lived at the very hub of the early Islamic world, it never seems to have occurred to him that Islam might be a separate religion. If a theologian of the stature of John Damascene was able to regard Islam as a new- if heretical- form of Christianity, it helps to explain how Islam was able to convert so much of the Middle Eastern population in so short a time, even though Christianity remained the majority religion until the time of the Crusades.
The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria. The Sufi Muslim tradition carried on directly from the point that the Christian Desert Fathers left off while Ramadan, at first sight one of the most foreign and alienating of Islamic practices, is in fact nothing more than an Islamicisation of Lent, which in the Eastern Christian churches still involves a gruelling all-day fast.
For more info on what William has said, one can also go online/look up an article he did under the name of "Op-Ed Contributor - Sufis - The Muslims in the Middle - NYTimes.com"(). The sheep, which was covered with flowers and ribbons like the Old Testament scapegoat, was being slaughtered as an offering.
"We believe that if you are generous and give a good sheep to fulfil your vow," said the Sufi Sheik who presided over the shrine, "then you will ride that sheep at the Day of Judgement. That sheep will carry you into Paradise."
"And the Christians believe this too?" I asked
"There is no difference between ourselves and the Christians on this matter," said the Sheik, "except that sometimes the Christians make the sign of Christ over the forehead of the person want cured."
Again and again in the Middle East I came across this extraordinary Christian-Muslim syncretism, this porousness of faith, where the ideas, practices and superstitions of one religion have trickled imperceptibly into another. But there was something else too. It wasn't just that in many places Christianity and Islam were still managing to coexist: seeing them together, and seeing the way the Eastern Christians practised their faith, brought home quite how closely the two faiths are really linked.
Today the West often views Islam as a civilisation very different from and indeed innately hostile to Christianity. Only when you travel in Christianity's Eastern homelands do you realise how closely the two are really connected, the former growing directly out of the latter and still, to this day, embodying many aspects and practices of the early Christian world now lost in Christianity's modern Western-based incarnation. When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies, they assumed that Islam was merely an heretical form of Christianity, and in many ways they were not so far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets.
Significantly, the greatest and most subtle theologian of the early church, St. John Damascene, was convinced that Islam was at root not a separate religion, but instead a form of Christianity. St. John had grown up in the Ummayad Arab court of Damascus, where his father was chancellor, and he was an intimate boyhood friend of the future Caliph al-Yazid; the two boys' drinking bouts in the streets of Damascus were the subject of much horrified gossip in the streets of the new Islamic capital.
Later, in his old age, John took the habit at the desert monastery of Mar Saba where he began work on his great masterpiece, a refutation of heresies entitled the Fount of Knowledge. The book contains an extremely precise and detailed critique of Islam, the first ever written by a Christian, which, intriguingly, John regarded as a form of Christian heresy related to Arianism: after all Arianism, like Islam, denied the divinity of Christ. Although he lived at the very hub of the early Islamic world, it never seems to have occurred to him that Islam might be a separate religion. If a theologian of the stature of John Damascene was able to regard Islam as a new- if heretical- form of Christianity, it helps to explain how Islam was able to convert so much of the Middle Eastern population in so short a time, even though Christianity remained the majority religion until the time of the Crusades.
The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria. The Sufi Muslim tradition carried on directly from the point that the Christian Desert Fathers left off while Ramadan, at first sight one of the most foreign and alienating of Islamic practices, is in fact nothing more than an Islamicisation of Lent, which in the Eastern Christian churches still involves a gruelling all-day fast.
Certainly if a monk from sixth century Byzantium were to come back today it is probable that he would find much more that was familiar in the practices and beliefs of a modern Muslim Sufi than he would with, say, a contemporary American Evangelical. Yet this simple truth has been lost by our tendency to think of Christianity as a thoroughly Western religion rather than the Oriental faith which by origin it actually is. Moreover the modern demonisation of Islam in the West, particularly since the Second World War and the foundation of the western-backed State of Israel, together with the recent growth of Muslim fundamentalism (itself in many ways a reaction to the West's repeated humiliation of the Muslim world) have led to an atmosphere where few in either camp are aware of, or indeed wish to be aware of, the profound kinship of Christianity and Islam.
It is this as much as anything else that has made the delicate position of the contemporary Eastern Christians increasingly untenable in recent years, as they find themselves awkwardly caught between their co-religionists in the West and their strong cultural links with their Muslims compatriots. Hence the vital importance of the popular syncretism which still exists at shrines like Seidnaya and Cyrrhus, and which was once much more general across the Middle East. The practice emphasises an important truth about the close affinity of the two great religions easily forgotten as the Eastern Christians- the last surviving bridge between Islam and Western Christianity- emigrate in reaction to the increasing hostility of the Islamic establishment.
Yet this kinship between the different religions of the book is something Muslim writers have been aware of for centuries. The thirteenth century Sufi Jalal-ud Din Rumi, perhaps the greatest of all the mystical writers of Islam, lived in a town in Central Anatolia in which the population was almost equally divided between Muslims, Christians and Jews.
It is this as much as anything else that has made the delicate position of the contemporary Eastern Christians increasingly untenable in recent years, as they find themselves awkwardly caught between their co-religionists in the West and their strong cultural links with their Muslims compatriots. Hence the vital importance of the popular syncretism which still exists at shrines like Seidnaya and Cyrrhus, and which was once much more general across the Middle East. The practice emphasises an important truth about the close affinity of the two great religions easily forgotten as the Eastern Christians- the last surviving bridge between Islam and Western Christianity- emigrate in reaction to the increasing hostility of the Islamic establishment.
Yet this kinship between the different religions of the book is something Muslim writers have been aware of for centuries. The thirteenth century Sufi Jalal-ud Din Rumi, perhaps the greatest of all the mystical writers of Islam, lived in a town in Central Anatolia in which the population was almost equally divided between Muslims, Christians and Jews.
"
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People may not like the man on certain things, but I gotta respect him for his heart to reach out to others rather than demonize them or act as if they all need to be quarantined/kept at arms-length.
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Diakoneo10
V.: to serve, attend, or wait upon
The church I attended did seperate by pew but the families were at least in the same room together. In the mosques, generally the women are in a completely seperate room and while they hear the same general message there are often different discussions or side-teachings that take place in the seperate spaces before or after the message. (at the mosque I attended, my escort would drop me off at the women's entrance and would then walk another block to get to the men's entrance. the women were all in a larger room upstairs, above the mosque itself. We watched the Imam give his message via CCTV but before the service started prayers and "theological" conversation were all conducted between the women. therefore, those women would never have the same experience as the men. {think men's and women's Sunday school idea})
Have you heard of Thich Nhat Hanh? He is a Buddist monk and a professing Christian. He has a book called "Living Buddha, Living Christ" ... very interesting read.
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Haven't come across that one, although I'll consider looking into it. Generally, I'm very selective about what I check out..
There are others I've come across that deal with similar issues. Brother Philip Jenkins, in his book "The Lost History of Christianity" noted often the way that believers went into Asian lands and contexualized the Gospel within Tao and Buddist terms that the locals could readily understand (discussed here, here, and here at The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--And How It Died - Page 14 ). Others, such as St.Francis Xavier and others had the same mindset...for there are many other things that were revelations from the Lord. Partial truth, if one wishes to call it such, that was given as a foreshadow of what was to come later...or what had already come (as Islam came after the Church began) and yet had not yet been fully understood by the people that hadn't encountered it yet. If aware of something known as Ancient Faith Radio, they did a series on the issue of how in some cultures, it seems that they were already being prepared for the presentation of the Gospel…with it being established that GOD was at work in all cultures far before any others with revelation of what the Hebrews had came around. The radio brodcast from "Ancient Faith Radio" was on a book entitled “Christ the Eternal Tao”…and for more info, one can go online/look up "Christ the Eternal Tao - Ancient Faith Radio". I thought it was interesting to see from an Eastern Christian perspective how the Tao Te Ching is presented as an imperfect, incomplete foreshadowing of what would later be revealed by Christ.
Indeed, it's amazing how the Gospel was contexualized in other cultures of Asia such as in Chineese culture. There was a book I was able to come across a couple years ago about the first Christian missionaries to China (in the 6th century, I think) - for they were Nestorian Christians from the Middle East. It was really cool to see how they "contextualized" the gospel into terms and images that resonated with the local Taoist, Buddhist, and Confucian cultures. ..
A book I was informed of awhile ago is entitled "The Jesus Sutras" by Martin Palmer.
It is an historical account of the first Christian mission to China (led by the monk Alouben) in 635, a piecing together of various strands of evidence: a long-lost Christian monastery now used as a Buddhist temple (with Christian statues in the eighth-century pagoda), a sutra (holy writing) of stone in a stone library, and “The Jesus Sutras,” a collection of scrolls found hidden in a secret library that was sealed around 1005.
From these fragments, the author pieces together a framework for what these early Christians believed, how they acted and interacted with the myriad of cultures and religions around them. The result is a fascinating depiction of a Christianity that is adaptive, hospitable, and relevant.
These early Chinese Christians drew upon imagery from their understanding of the Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Jainism and Shamanism of Tang Dynasty China, which allowed them to present a radical image of Christ as the Dharma King, sending “your raft of salvation to save us from the burning streams” - even saving us from karma and reincarnation.
Here's one of the sutras:
Beyond knowing, beyond words
You are the truth, steadfast for all time.
Compassionate Father, Radiant Son,
Pure Wind King - three in one…
Supreme King, Will of Ages,
Compassionate Joyous Lamb
Loving all who suffer
Fearless as You strive for us
Free us of the karma of our lives,
Bring us back to our original nature
Delivered from all danger.
Sutra of Praise to the Three Powers, A.D. ca. 780-790
You are the truth, steadfast for all time.
Compassionate Father, Radiant Son,
Pure Wind King - three in one…
Supreme King, Will of Ages,
Compassionate Joyous Lamb
Loving all who suffer
Fearless as You strive for us
Free us of the karma of our lives,
Bring us back to our original nature
Delivered from all danger.
Sutra of Praise to the Three Powers, A.D. ca. 780-790
The work of E.Stanley Jones always comes to mind, seeing how he worked with others in the Hindu world as a Methodist minister and radically shaped the ways others saw evangelism. The man was a big inspiration for others like Dr.Martin Luther King in the work he did---and to see how many came to Christ because of his heart for the Kingdom of God always encourages me (more shared here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here , here, here and here). St.Francis Xavier did similar when it came to his work amongst others in Japan, which has always amazed me in so many ways...just as the Nestorians did as well in their own context with working with the Mongols as well as Japan even before Xavier arrived (more here ).Got ya. I've seen that before, as it concerns having the women in seperate rooms (done often for the sake of protecting the women). It's very interesting to see how the practice developed...
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Easy G (G²);61623569 said:
Most complete info. I've seen on the Chrislam subject. Here in N.M. it hasn't been a big issue, if any at all, save for a few commenting on it. I recall now, from hearing anything about it about 3-4 years ago, that some were all upset about it and Warren. I'm a bit too involved in work, the recovery compound we sponsor at the edge of a rez. and promoting a ministry in the Dakotas, WY. and around to get involved in what appeared to be a flap-flap session. Figured they'd tar and feather Warren if he was really as bad as they said. Glad to read the article and his words. Interesting.
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One... it isn't liberal to have a profession of faith.
Two... You can not be Muslim and Christian at the same time
Three.. It is dangerous [life threatening] to go from Muslim to Christian
Four.. May there be more believers as the day draws nearer.
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Indeed, people don't understand what it means to be a Muslim in the contexts they live in and how it's more so about community than anything else, just as it was often the case that others in certain Indigenious tribes didn't cease being part of the tribe simply because they became a believer in Christ. Whenever people say that one cannot be a believer and a Muslim, I'm wondering how it's the case that one says that they can be American and a Christian---as it concerns the history of America and where it at many points diverged from what the Lord wanted, even though others say that your identity as an American never ceases even while you follow Christ.
Ultimately, it's about whether or not you're a follower of Christ...as opposed to whether or not you have the label of "Christian" (as Christ never was focused on that and the term didn't come up until later in the development of the church, Acts 11 and I Peter 4). Those believers who are Messianic Muslims are getting persecuted/harmed just as others are when they claim to follow Christ---and their blood being shed is precious in the sight of the Lord just as it is for other Christians around the world ( Psalm 72:13-15 /Psalm 116:14-16/ Psalm 116 ). The work of Brother Andrew (who wrote the book "God Smuggler" detailing his work behind the Iron Curtain as a missionary) is very powerful when studying what life is like for many believers from a Muslim background. For more, one can go to Secret Believers - Podbean.
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A lot of people who were up-in-arms on the issue often tended to be people that really had no interactions with Muslims of any kind....and tended to be of the Islamaphobia mindset where anything deemed "Muslim" is demonized. Similar happened on my side after seeing other Christians do humanatarian work with Muslim women in the United States seeking refuge from war, persecution & poverty to make a new life for themselves and their families. The women made high quality and one-of-a-kind accessories using top-of-the-line, repurposed fabrics....and I bought some material from them as well as for my mom that was stunning. Loved it and the work that other believers were doing in sponsoring them, although others who were not aware of what it was about tried to throw out the "Chrislam" buzzword as a reason why they were cautious----and in seeing for themselves what was done, others were pleasantly surprised. For more, one can go to Peace of Thread and here to simple thoughts: Peace of Thread giveaway
There are not a lot of people who will love others/place in faith in them before asking others to place faith in what they believe...and I appreciate others doing so, just as it was with Rick. With Rick Warren, I'm thankful others did a good job on addressing the issue and showing where what's seen in the T.V and media isn't the same as having real life relationships with others who are truly beautiful people/children of God (more shared here in #193 on the issue ). What Warren did was taken way out of context and I'm glad he shared on what it meant to love people where they were at. Sadly, even that can be ignored....as others ignored what he said after addressing the issue.
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Upon further research I was amazed to find how many believe this is the age of the islamists in such way that judeo-christianity is dying in the Western world which will give birth to an islamo-christianity. Europe and North America, about 850 millions people assist everyday to the destruction of their ideology and culture and do nothing preferring to side with the worst current that Islam has to offer because of fear (yes the West is submissive and weak). Islamism will not stop at the door of the West and the West will be too happy to answer every demand to avoid conflict. Even if it means sacrificing the Jews (something Europe is very good at) then so be it.
Julie Burchill: Good, bad and ugly | Life and style | The Guardian
Churchill said that the appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. The problem is, as history has shown, it starts with the Jews but never ends with them. Muslims (the one from the wrong cast or a a more peaceful ideology) are also on the list of the Islamists. I wish more could see this before it is too late!
Julie Burchill: Good, bad and ugly | Life and style | The Guardian
Churchill said that the appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. The problem is, as history has shown, it starts with the Jews but never ends with them. Muslims (the one from the wrong cast or a a more peaceful ideology) are also on the list of the Islamists. I wish more could see this before it is too late!
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Easy G (G²);61626678 said:
Islam, which is the belief of Muslims, believes in the Koran. So to say you are a Muslim, says you are a follower of Islam. And that means you believe the Koran is revelation from god/allah thru prophet Mohammed.
Now, can a Christian believe the Koran?
Muslims come from all different groups. Many are Arabs, and you can be a Arab Christian. Some are African, and you can be an African Christian.
I do know a few who are former Muslims and now Christian. They do not consider themselves Muslim any longer.
So, I would be suspicious of Muslim Christians as that shows a split allegiance. Islam denies too much about Yeshua to be compatible.
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Many Muslims have long noted that believing in the Quran does not mean one believes all aspects of it are accurate, even though there are levels of revelation within it. Islam is not something where there are cookie cutter variations, just as there are many Christianities and many Judaisms. Arguing against that is like saying that all who are Christians in Evangelical Christianity reflect the variety of thought of all who were Christians throughout history and that all have the same view of scripture.
That's cool, as many are Muslims from a myriad of backgrounds, including Asian such as in Indonesian culture. Others make clear that they don't agree with other Muslims believing that Mohommad was perfect nor do they think the Quran is the supreme revelation since it notes that others need to listen to the people of the book---with many coming to Christ after seeing the Quran encourage them to read the Bible and see the Lord.
Outside of working with others in the culture, it can be difficult to understand.
You're free to believe such, but others have never advocated that and it's no different than being an American (despite the religious backgrounds that differ from Biblical Chrisitanity) and yet still a follower of the Lord. Islam has aspects of truth in it that point to what Christ talked on and it's the same with all other cultures where partial relevation is present---with others in the culture knowing how to reach people in their own backgrounds, just as others who become believers after coming from a background in Hip-Hop culture (which also has religious influences) doesn't mean they stop being a part of hip hop...or that others coming out of Judaism denying Messiah mean that they stop with Judaism.
For the sake of comparative analysis with Islam, when it comes to examining culture (be it from a social perspective or a religious one), I'm reminded of what occurs in the world of First Nations groups. One of the best people to study on the issue would be Richard Twiss. One can find more about him at his ministry of "Wiconi.com." He is a Lakota Sioux member and Christian scholar. Very brilliant man who has an intense passion for seeing Indigenious peoples come to faith in Christ and knowing that their culture is of immense value to the Lord....especially as it concerns illustrating Biblical principles and evangelizing those who are Jewish. He wrote a book entitled "One Church, Many Tribes" which was one of the most thoughtful/biblically based books I've ever come across when it comes to the issue of God using those in Gentile cultures to proclaim His Glory just as He did consistently throughout the OT/NT ---whether that be in consideration of those who are God-Fearers or those who were not even saved (i.e. King Cyrus, Isaiah 47, Ezra 1, etc) for His purposes.
There was one incident where there was a conference for Indigenious peoples in the Holy Land---with Richard/the Dance Team he's apart of invited there by other Jews. In Israel, several hundred believers in Jesus Christ from all over the world made up the seventh "World Gathering of Indigenous Peoples."..and dressed in native costumes and worshipping through their unique cultures, they presented colorful portrait of things to come. Some went to the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem to talk with some of these native peoples, with Richard Twiss being among them....and he shared one of the most eloquent explanations I've heard about the former plight of indigenous peoples and how God is redeeming their place in the church worldwide.
They were at the Wailing Wall praying and many Jews noted how astounded they were by the faith that these Indigenious people had, as well as how much understanding of the Lord they demonstrated. Truly, its a picture of how others were holding palm branches in their hands." and glorifying God in their own languages (Revelation 7:9)
On Richard Twiss, something interesting I thought he brought up once was how it seems that in Western/European culture's view of Christianity, anyone talking to animals was seen as "primative" or "evil"....yet for Indigenious peoples, it was not seen as an issue since all things were connected/didn't have to be seen as "rational." This in part is due to the extensive influence of Dualism in Western Christianity, where the material world and the natural are often seen as completely seperate and disconnected. However, its different for those who are not of that mindset. If an animal began talking to an Indigenious person, they wouldn't rebuke it. Rather, they'd ask what the animal meant since its not always assumed that the physical/material world cannot connect with the spiritual one and that only man has intelligent thought....and interestingly enough, the same happened before in the scriptures with Balaam when his donkey began talking to him in Numbers 22:21-33 in trying to protect him.
For more info, one can go online/research these articles under the following titles:
- "YouTube - Richard Twiss 1" ( )
- "YouTube - Richard Twiss 2 " ( ) ( )
- nations_and_tribes.avi - Google Video
- "The Work of the People: Films: Talking Donkeys" ( )
- "YouTube - Richard Twiss: Avatar and Dancing With Wolves: Indigenous People and their Mythical White Saviors ..." ( )
- Richard Twiss: A Theology of Manifest Destiny
- Richard Twiss: The Biggest Problem
- Richard Twiss: Hope For the American Church
- Cornerstone 2009, Soong-Chan Rah(www.profrah.com ...
- Indigenous theologians discuss Christianity from a Native Perspective... ( YouTube - Indigenous theologians discuss Christianity from a Native perspective )
Richard and others thinking there's value within Native Cultural forms have often been accussed of sycrentism---despite the fact that they've made clear that anything that is not counter to the Word is not evil...and "extra-biblical" doesn't mean "Anti-biblical" since the Bible only discussed one form of lifestyle that was not exhaustive. They didn't have internet, media or T.V ...but we don't have a problem utilizing those for the Gospel since they are apart of our cultural heritage. Its the same with Native culture. It often seems that the phrase of Jew and Gentile together in Messiah often seems to be hollow when it seems that one culture is not celebrated as another....and perhaps it'd be possible to see other places of beauty in Messianic culture become more realized rather than seen as theorectical alone if others were exposed to what's out there. As it concerns the OP, I'm reminded of some American Indian dances referred to me by another "First Nations" Christian..a Lakota Sioux who follows Christ. They really amazed me. For more info, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
Inaugural World Christian Gathering of Indigenous People ( YouTube - Inaugural World Christian Gathering of Indigenous People )
If there was a synagouge where Messianic Jews were alongside Gentiles in the Native American world, there should be NO issue whatsoever with one group being allowed to do some of the dances they've done in their world to glorify the Lord. I know of a church called the Covenant in Texas and every year they perform interpative dances in their native culture but glorify the Lord with it. Would any of you go into Korea and say “Hey you have to change your culture to a biblical culture (which is mostly Western) or your worship is not of God.” What about Africa where the Gospel has been preached and they still paint their faces and perfrom dance ceremonies for the Lord? Would you label that wrong? Would you say it does not belong in God’s house? What about Somoa where they where Somain clothing still do their chants but they glorify God. What often seems to happen in responses others give to differing cultures is seen in the statement “the way I worship is correct and other cultures need to either conform or will be written off as wrong”. That is sin, IMHO---for how is that Revelation 5:9 and Rev 7:9
Once we say “our worship” is superior to the way others worship we have crossed the line. My heart hurts here because what I am seeing is a people group with a superiority complex. If some were to become world missionaries you would have a rough time because you couldn’t draw the line between culture and essentials. Once we judge something outside of biblical parameters we can easily become useless to reach that culture.
That same dynamic, again, is present for many within the Muslim world when it comes to them going back into their culture as followers of Christ and seeing things a part of their cultural heritage that they value---and using it for the Glory of God while rejecting that which may not line up with Christ. Just as we give other cultures freedom to do so since they understand their own culture (including Jewish believers telling others that they don't need to reject all things Jewish to follow CHrist), we need to be respectful of those in the Muslim world doing so
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IslamChrist must be in conflict within their own crossbred theology, cause Islam believe Christianity is worthy of death, and if they believe both, then they must also believe that they should kill themselves, not for the virgins but because Allah says Infidels are worthy of death.
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Diakoneo10
V.: to serve, attend, or wait upon
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: this thread is going down hill too. Can't we just praise God that more are coming to know Him rather than try to weigh whether or not they actually count as Christians?! We all have screwed up theology! We're human trying to interpret the Divine!!! We can't all get it right all the time!
: this thread is going down hill too. Can't we just praise God that more are coming to know Him rather than try to weigh whether or not they actually count as Christians?! We all have screwed up theology! We're human trying to interpret the Divine!!! We can't all get it right all the time!
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