(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Dig4truth]

He who is born of flesh is flesh.

He who is born of spirit is spirit.

There is a fleshly physical nation called Israel

There is a spiritual people called the 12 tribes of Israel. God's covenant is with the spirit, not the flesh.

IF it were not so, why would Scripture make the distinction?
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


IF the "PHYSICAL NATION" called Israel was the covenant nation, what of the time period from 70 AD -1948 AD when the PHYSICAL NATION did not exist?

Did Israel CEASE To EXIST during this time period when there was no physical nation called Israel?

Did the 12 tribes of Israel STILL EXIST during this time period when there was no physical nation Israel?



Did I ask for you to vindicate my understanding as all on this forum do, or did I ask to be proven wrong?

You should have clicked the link.

I’ve heard you make the claim that physical Israel is not God’s chosen people any longer. What I haven’t heard is the Scripture supporting this position.

Do you have any that specifically state this position?

 

[klutedavid]

Sorry, but I didn't see anything about Israel being rejected in the verses you quoted.

What I have seen and quoted before is God saying as long as the natural flow of the earth exists, Israel will never cease being a nation before God. Also, we have Paul declaring that Israel has not been rejected.

Hello Dig4truth.

You did not see that Israel had been grafted out?

Luke 21
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews are scattered all over the world, Jerusalem is occupied by the Gentiles.

Has this been the case for two thousand years or not?

A simple question.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello Dig4truth.

You did not see that Israel had been grafted out?

Luke 21
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews are scattered all over the world, Jerusalem is occupied by the Gentiles.

Has this been the case for two thousand years or not?

A simple question.

Jews returning since 1943 has meant nothing?

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The law requires physical circumcision,

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Why not quote the Bible??

Sin is transgression of the law,

That is true -- 1 John 3:4 says that very thing.

therefore to not become circumcised is not obeying the law.

No law in either OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised - and we both know it.

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Why not start quoting the Bible to make your case???

A whole lot of uncircumcised gentiles in Acts 13 and in Acts 17:1-5 and in Acts 18:1-5 worship the one true God -- in the Synagogues - but are not circumcised.

What for?

Because I prefer a Bible based discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

Then why have you quoted Rom 2 about circumcision in many other posts?
bugkiller

you mean --- like this?

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

I find our logic "illusive"

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I just got back and read your posts, you said.

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Well you are wrong about the Old testament not requiring circumcision for a Gentile.

Interesting opinion you have there - you are welcomed to it of course.

Or did you intend to actually show the OT text saying all gentiles had to be circumcised - just as in Isaiah 56:1-8 Gentiles were to keep Sabbath -- and in fact "all mankind" to keep Sabbath Isaiah 66:23.

Discussion has gone on for many many months - still waiting for you to post that text.

 

[BobRyan]

But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. (Exodus 12:48)

hint - gentiles were not required to celebrate Passover in the OT or the NT.
Just as gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT - in order to worship the one true God.

Thus all the uncircumcised gentiles in Acts 13, and 17, and 18 in the Synagogues worshiping the one true God.

The point remains.

Yet (by contrast) ALL gentiles are told to keep the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 and Isaiah 66:23 - as we both know.

 

[BobRyan]

For the Gentiles in the New Testament circumcision was not required.

And were not required to do it in the OT either.

There is some fictions these days that Gentiles were celebrating Passover in the NT without being circumcised - a thing they could not do in the OT (As we all know). But in fact that is complete fiction. No such discussion happens in the NT regarding Gentiles and Passover.

The point remains.

obviously.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Why not quote the Bible??

I think I stated earlier that if a gentile wanted to join the Hebrews in the Old Testament, they had to convert and be circumcised. It was a total conversion.


Exodus 12:48–49


48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. 49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

 

[ToBeLoved]

And were not required to do it in the OT either.

There is some fictions these days that Gentiles were celebrating Passover in the NT without being circumcised - a thing they could not do in the OT (As we all know). But in fact that is complete fiction. No such discussion happens in the NT regarding Gentiles and Passover.

The point remains.

obviously.

Please see the verse below. It specifically calls for circumcision

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

You did not see that Israel had been grafted out?

Luke 21
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews are scattered all over the world, Jerusalem is occupied by the Gentiles.

Has this been the case for two thousand years or not?

A simple question.

I have seen that Israel has been punished but "grafted out" I have not seen in Scripture. What verses do you have to support this?

In fact, I have seen in Scripture that Israel will be a nation before God as long as the earth exists as normal.

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Yet you say it has ceased. Please provide scriptural evidence.

 

[Dig4truth]

Jews returning since 1943 has meant nothing?

Well, it certainly doesn't mean that they had ceased to be a nation before God. (see Jer 31)

 

[Dig4truth]

What's all this talk about circumcision? Just cut it out!


Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, it certainly doesn't mean that they had ceased to be a nation before God. (see Jer 31)

Didn't say it did.

But isn't it more of a people group, ie Hebrews, like a blood line?

 

[Dig4truth]

Didn't say it did.

But isn't it more of a people group, ie Hebrews, like a blood line?

Well, God says a "nation". You decide.

 

[Dig4truth]

What's all this talk about circumcision? Just cut it out!


Sorry, couldn't resist.

If anyone wants an indepth study, this video is available;

 

[klutedavid]

Jews returning since 1943 has meant nothing?

Hello ToBeLoved.

Not sure what you mean?

 

[klutedavid]

I have seen that Israel has been punished but "grafted out" I have not seen in Scripture. What verses do you have to support this?

In fact, I have seen in Scripture that Israel will be a nation before God as long as the earth exists as normal.

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Yet you say it has ceased. Please provide scriptural evidence.

Hello Dig4truth.

Israel was not a nation for two thousand years!

Does the fact that Israel was not inhabited for two thousand years, meaning anything to you?

Could it be that theocratic Israel is no more?

Is modern Israel under covenant law?

 

[klutedavid]

Interesting opinion you have there - you are welcomed to it of course.

Or did you intend to actually show the OT text saying all gentiles had to be circumcised - just as in Isaiah 56:1-8 Gentiles were to keep Sabbath -- and in fact "all mankind" to keep Sabbath Isaiah 66:23.

Discussion has gone on for many many months - still waiting for you to post that text.

Hello Bob.

If a Gentile wanted to celebrate the Passover they had to be circumcised, which I have already demonstrated (Exodus 12:48).

Your quotation from Isaiah 56, regarding a sojourner joining the old covenant, they are required to sacrifice.

Isaiah 56
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

On the one hand you claim sacrifices are abolished, yet these verses indicate the Gentile will sacrifice.

There is a problem with your quotation from Isaiah 56, you can't get around this one.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

Israel was not a nation for two thousand years!

Does the fact that Israel was not inhabited for two thousand years, meaning anything to you?

Could it be that theocratic Israel is no more?

Is modern Israel under covenant law?

Again, I ask the same question: "I have seen in Scripture that Israel will be a nation before God as long as the earth exists as normal."

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Has this fixed order departed? If not then please justify your position with Scripture.
Please don't argue with me, graple with the Word of God.