(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[BobRyan]

Hello Christopheralan.

In the New Testament the phrase, 'the law', occurs often and describes at a minimum, the 613 laws commonly called the law of Moses

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Bible details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The law requires physical circumcision,

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Why not quote the Bible??

Sin is transgression of the law,

That is true -- 1 John 3:4 says that very thing.

therefore to not become circumcised is not obeying the law.

No law in either OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised - and we both know it.

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Why not start quoting the Bible to make your case???

A whole lot of uncircumcised gentiles in Acts 13 and in Acts 17:1-5 and in Acts 18:1-5 worship the one true God -- in the Synagogues - but are not circumcised.

 

[BobRyan]

How could you possibly claim that circumcision is not law?

It was never the law for gentiles - not in OT and not in NT.

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The Bible matters -- as we both know.

This is the same text... the same point that the Baptist Confession of Faith makes... it is not "just you and I" that can see this obvious Bible detail.

 

[BobRyan]

How is that not part of the OT?

If gentiles joined the Hebrews, they had to become circumcised and follow all the Law.

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

Kool. I like that. Since you are a Berean type you like them have searched the Scripture and agree with Paul. That being the case, I do not think we have anything to debate. Everything I post agrees with Paul. Paul wrote -

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

bugkiller

Paul wrote "do we then make void the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

Paul wrote "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Paul reminds us that the 5th commandment is "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is that still-valid-unit-of-TEN

And the Apostles say this about Paul -
Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

 

[bugkiller]

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Why not quote the Bible??

What for? just for you to throw out? NTL I quote -

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Ex 12

That is true -- 1 John 3:4 says that very thing.

No law in either OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised - and we both know it.

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Why does keeping the commandments matter?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Then why have you quoted Rom 2 about circumcision in many other posts?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul wrote "do we then make void the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

Care to tell us what you think or want us to think this verse means?

bugkiller

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

I didn't see a reference to spiritual Israel in any of the Scripture you listed.

I'm not trying to prove what I already believe and what I believe is based on Scripture.

Has God rejected His people?

God will NEVER reject HIS PEOPLE.

The great controversy appears to be;

Who are God's people?

-Is ISRAEL(not the nation in the middle east) God's chosen people forever
-Or CAN "Christian's" abolish GOD'S PERPETUAL EVERLASTING COVENANT and replace Israel?



There is a great lie,

which has been perpetrated upon those that acknowledge Christ,

by the 4th dreadful kingdom of Daniel,

that God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and does not pertain to "Christian's".




NOW, IF THAT COVENANT . . . . . .
carried a death sentence for anyone breaking that covenant,

who do you believe would try to convince God's chosen people

that WHAT GOD DECLARED an EVERLASTING covenant,

was NOT everlasting and had ended,

causing Gods mighty people to break that covenant and be surely put to death?


Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.



Are you willing to bet your life on explanations of a man, or the Word of God?

Is YOUR SIGN with God,

Or is your sign with the "Pontifex Maximus" who claims equality with Jesus and the authority to ABOLISH A NEVER ENDING COVENANT?


The truth, if you are digging for it is;

There is no such Scripture written stating God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and was bestowed upon "Christian's".

That lie is straight from the mouth of the "Little Horn".

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.



“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.



“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy.

There is no such law in the Bible.

It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone.

The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’

The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’

And lo!

The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Sure.

I am not a blog pimp.

But you asked for it.

Show me the error in the TESTIMONY of 5 witnesses. . . . . .Please

For I am digging for truth too!

IDENTIFYING Daniel's 4th Beast ("Little Horn") A.K.A. -Revelation 17's Harlot Babylon

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

I just got back and read your posts, you said.

Neither OT nor NT required that gentiles be circumcised -- and we both know it.

Well you are wrong about the Old testament not requiring circumcision for a Gentile.

Why not quote the Bible??

I intend to Bob.

But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. (Exodus 12:48)

There you go Bob, the Old Testament did require circumcision for the Gentile traveler.

It sure appears that I have read the Bible and you may not have read it.

No law in either OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised - and we both know it.

See above.

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

For the Gentiles in the New Testament circumcision was not required.

Why not start quoting the Bible to make your case???

I already quoted above to prove the point.

 

[klutedavid]

Physical Israel is no longer the covenant nation.

But Spiritual Israel can still partake of the covenant.

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why does New Testament Scripture refer to the GOD OF ISRAEL, and not the God of humanity"?

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why does it not say redeemed humanity instead distinctly mentioning "Israel"?
Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Who will the "King of Israel" rule over?
John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would it be necessary to give repentance and a Savior TO ISRAEL instead of humanity?
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would God sent the WORD EVEN AFTER Jesus Crucifixion unto the children of Israel, and not humanity?
Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would God raise up a Savior unto an "extict" nation, and not all of humanity?
Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

How could God make a covenant in the latter days to Israel?
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why would Jesus be sent unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why would Jesus instruct His Apostles to go STRICTLY TO the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL, and not humanity?
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Then why are the 144,000 ALL of the 12 tribes of Israel?
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why do each of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem bear their respective name of each of the 12 tribes?
Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes ofthe children of Israel:


Name ONE,

JUST ONE REFERENCE in NEW OR OLD TESTAMENT KJV SCRIPTURE that has NOT been paraphrased

that ever mentions "Christian's" OVER ISRAEL as God's chosen people.

Hello Lee.

Sorry I have been away.

The New Testament was written by Jews, so we can expect a very Jewish flavor to the letters in the New Testament. In fact, there are a number of letters written by Jews to a distinctly Jewish audience, in the New Testament.

Even Paul's letter to the Romans was aimed at the Jews. So we expect the word, 'law', to be a frequent word. We also expect to see numerous mentions of the word, 'Israel'.

If the authors of these letters had written these letters fifty years later, these words would have vanished.

 

[klutedavid]

I would like to see some Scripture to support your claims.

Hello Dig4truth.

You want some verses that proclaim that Israel was grafted out.

Here is one.

Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[klutedavid]

I would like to see some Scripture to support your claims.

Hello Dig4truth.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and the city; 22 because these are the days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

We switched from the era of Israel and the Jews to the era of the Gentiles. The Jews will have no nation until the era of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

Luke 21
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The clock is still ticking for the Gentiles.

Israel was grafted out and the Gentile nations have been grafted in.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and the city; 22 because these are the days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

We switched from the era of Israel and the Jews to the era of the Gentiles. The Jews will have no nation until the era of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

Luke 21
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The clock is still ticking for the Gentiles.

Israel was grafted out and the Gentile nations have been grafted in.

Sorry, but I didn't see anything about Israel being rejected in the verses you quoted.

What I have seen and quoted before is God saying as long as the natural flow of the earth exists, Israel will never cease being a nation before God. Also, we have Paul declaring that Israel has not been rejected.

 

[Dig4truth]

God will NEVER reject HIS PEOPLE.

The great controversy appears to be;

Who are God's people?

-Is ISRAEL(not the nation in the middle east) God's chosen people forever
-Or CAN "Christian's" abolish GOD'S PERPETUAL EVERLASTING COVENANT and replace Israel?



There is a great lie,

which has been perpetrated upon those that acknowledge Christ,

by the 4th dreadful kingdom of Daniel,

that God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and does not pertain to "Christian's".




NOW, IF THAT COVENANT . . . . . .
carried a death sentence for anyone breaking that covenant,

who do you believe would try to convince God's chosen people

that WHAT GOD DECLARED an EVERLASTING covenant,

was NOT everlasting and had ended,

causing Gods mighty people to break that covenant and be surely put to death?


Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.



Are you willing to bet your life on explanations of a man, or the Word of God?

Is YOUR SIGN with God,

Or is your sign with the "Pontifex Maximus" who claims equality with Jesus and the authority to ABOLISH A NEVER ENDING COVENANT?


The truth, if you are digging for it is;

There is no such Scripture written stating God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and was bestowed upon "Christian's".

That lie is straight from the mouth of the "Little Horn".

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.



“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.



“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy.

There is no such law in the Bible.

It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone.

The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’

The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’

And lo!

The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802

Aren't you the one that said physical Israel is no longer the Covenant nation? What gives here?

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Hello Lee.

Sorry I have been away.

The New Testament was written by Jews, so we can expect a very Jewish flavor to the letters in the New Testament. In fact, there are a number of letters written by Jews to a distinctly Jewish audience, in the New Testament.

Even Paul's letter to the Romans was aimed at the Jews. So we expect the word, 'law', to be a frequent word. We also expect to see numerous mentions of the word, 'Israel'.

If the authors of these letters had written these letters fifty years later, these words would have vanished.

Aren't you the one that said physical Israel is no longer the Covenant nation? What gives here?

He who is born of flesh is flesh.

He who is born of spirit is spirit.

There is a fleshly physical nation called Israel

There is a spiritual people called the 12 tribes of Israel. God's covenant is with the spirit, not the flesh.

IF it were not so, why would Scripture make the distinction?
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


IF the "PHYSICAL NATION" called Israel was the covenant nation, what of the time period from 70 AD -1948 AD when the PHYSICAL NATION did not exist?

Did Israel CEASE To EXIST during this time period when there was no physical nation called Israel?

Did the 12 tribes of Israel STILL EXIST during this time period when there was no physical nation Israel?



Did I ask for you to vindicate my understanding as all on this forum do, or did I ask to be proven wrong?

You should have clicked the link.

 

[Bob S]

That's great because we know that the whole Torah is based on this command.

Did you really get what Jesus wrote? If yo did you would not have related it to Torah.

And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment.39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

There is nothing to compare with Jn13:34. He asks us ro love Others as He has loved us. He gave his life for you and me brother. Would you give yor life for others? Is there anything in Torah that commanded the Israelites to give their lives for others? Love is the theme of the new covenant, law ws the theme of the old one given to Israel only.

So yeh, love one another.

The word "new" in your passage from John is Strongs 2537, it means new as in freshness. Yeshua was renewing a command and making it more relevant.

Sorry, but Strong was wrong. Jesus knew it ws a new concept and He wouldn't have written that it was "new" if it were not.

Otherwise Yeshua would be guilty of sin because it is against the Torah to add to it.

Jesus is God, He can do whatever He pleases. That statement was meant for us. Why do you try to add a 10 in front of commandments where commandments appears in the New Testament? In matt5 Jesus added to Torah. Would you likewise condemn Him for that?

These passages from I John and II John explains it further:

Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Read above.

 

[listed]

God will NEVER reject HIS PEOPLE.

The great controversy appears to be;

Who are God's people?

-Is ISRAEL(not the nation in the middle east) God's chosen people forever
-Or CAN "Christian's" abolish GOD'S PERPETUAL EVERLASTING COVENANT and replace Israel?

You really seem to be on both sides of the fence. The covenant made with Israel ended at the cross. Jeremiah prophesied this would happen. Jesus confirmed it in Luke 22:20. There's nothing in the NT saying anything about obligation to the covenant given to Israel at Sinai.

There is a great lie,

which has been perpetrated upon those that acknowledge Christ,

by the 4th dreadful kingdom of Daniel,

that God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and does not pertain to "Christian's".




NOW, IF THAT COVENANT . . . . . .
carried a death sentence for anyone breaking that covenant,

who do you believe would try to convince God's chosen people

that WHAT GOD DECLARED an EVERLASTING covenant,

was NOT everlasting and had ended,

causing Gods mighty people to break that covenant and be surely put to death?


Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.



Are you willing to bet your life on explanations of a man, or the Word of God?

Is YOUR SIGN with God,

Or is your sign with the "Pontifex Maximus" who claims equality with Jesus and the authority to ABOLISH A NEVER ENDING COVENANT?

I wonder about this statement. The title you use has always been associated with the human posterior. I do recognize you could really be talking about a ruler in the old world also called Constantine the Great. If that is the case you're very off topic as he wasn't a religious figure of authority.

The truth, if you are digging for it is;

There is no such Scripture written stating God's PERPETUAL(never-ending) covenant with Israel ended and was bestowed upon "Christian's".

Then you actually are both denying the new covenant and evangelizing Christians.

That lie is straight from the mouth of the "Little Horn".

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Are you calling Jeremiah and Jesus liars? I think so.

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

Here you clearly refer tot he RCC. This makes me think indeed you're using Pontifex Maximus in the derogatory manner referring to the human buttocks.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

Let them claim anything they want. That doesn't make anything a fact.

“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy.

I've been here awhile. Would yuo mind giving the post short cut link?

There is no such law in the Bible.

It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone.

The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’

The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’

And lo!

The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802

The Bible gives no such command in the new covenant.

 

[listed]

Sorry, but I didn't see anything about Israel being rejected in the verses you quoted.

What I have seen and quoted before is God saying as long as the natural flow of the earth exists, Israel will never cease being a nation before God. Also, we have Paul declaring that Israel has not been rejected.

Everyone I know understands there was no nation called Israel for at least 1370 years. The time of the gentiles isn't over yet even though there's a nation called Israel.