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Featured (Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Devin P, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    You have to look at what that's referencing though. Each time He says this, it's to a disobedient Israel. They were rebelling, and whoring out among the gentiles, becoming like them, and each time they were punished UNTIL that is, they stopped conforming to the nations, and started going back to where this is being referenced from. It's being referenced from when they were first on mount Sinai.

    Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

    Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

    Ezekiel is one of the times God says this, and goes into more understanding with what exactly this means, what exactly is going on regarding the writing on the heart. It is loving, and believing on Him enough to do what He asks of you. Not FOR salvation, but because of it.

    Jesus says it as this.

    Matthew 15:8
    This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    From Matthew 15:1, we see that the people Jesus said whose heart was far from Him, were the Pharisees and the Scribes.

    They were placing their own doctrines over the way God tells them to live, all the while, preaching exactly what God said was right to do. We see in Matthew 23:2, that Jesus says that we are to do as the Pharisees say, but not as they do. Why? Because they "Sit in Moses' seat" meaning, that they teach and preach what Moses taught, but, because their heart is far from Him, they DO differently than they teach others to do. They themselves place their own ways above God's, but teach others to do as Moses did.

    He does teach you His word brother, but the writing of it in your heart, isn't something that magically appears so you don't transgress any of the laws. No, the writing of it on your heart, only comes after you know what the laws are, and then after you have the knowledge, you desire to keep them. Not that you are saved if and when you keep them, but that you desire the blessings, and the works of God, not the works of flesh. Not that these works MAKE your salvation, but rather they are a product of the salvation that is already made.

    Salvation, or grace rather, works obedience. Romans 1:5 (which it says by the way in Romans 1:2 - "Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures" and the only thing the prophets promised regarding the promise, was for the house of Israel, and those that followed the Torah)

    Romans 16:26 - But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    Acts 5:31-32
    31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    We show our obedience because we fear, and love Him. Not because we are trying to save ourselves. Our obedience is our fruit, and is a result of being part of the good olive tree, the tree of Israel. The fruit is what comes from a tree, not the tree from the fruit. The tree is salvation, the fruit is the evidence of it. Not the cause of it.
  2. Lee Stuvmen

    Lee Stuvmen If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:

    United States

    Exactly the POINT!

    Stop and think just a minute

    about where you are right now as a human spirit and how Christ has made your heart

    Why do YOU not kill?

    A.) because it is a written law on paper
    B.) because the LOVE IN YOUR HEART will not allow it

    Is the law not to kill written on your heart?

    Romans 2:15
    Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Do you need a piece of paper with thou shalt not kill, if is written on your heart?

    Hebrews 8:10
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Hebrews 10:16
    This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    God's People;

    The SPIRITUAL HOUSE of Israel

    Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman(ISRAEL), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Don't need 631 laws

    They don't steal because, . . . . . . . .to steal is not love.

    They don't bear false witness because, . . . . . . . . . to bear false witness is not love.

    1 John 4:7
    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    1 John 4:8
    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Ephesians 5:2
    And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    The New Testament covenant WITH SPIRITUAL ISRAEL,


    which abolished the 631 laws written letters on paper, WHICH COULD NOT WRITE THOSE LAWS ON THE HEART.

    Because God IS LOVE

    and the LAW IN THE KINGDOM - ruled BY LOVE

    would be to love.

    Thy kingdom come, LOVE WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH as it is in heaven


    ONLY SPIRIT can fulfill the law by having God IN THEIR HEARTS

    Romans 13:8
    Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Romans 13:10
    Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Galatians 5:14
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    IF you desire to be counted as one of the ACCEPTED of the 12 tribes,

    you cannot reject the Christ's sacrifice and stand guiltless before God!

    listen to Paul, not Lee.

    Paul dotted every i of those 631 laws.

    When I was a pharisee SO DID I

    I was jealous of the law just like you and Paul

    But Mosaic Law is our death sentence. All have broken one.


    Galatians 5 (KJV)
    5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
    (if you were given liberty from Mosaic Law would you start killing people)

    would you get on your knees and thank Jesus with every fiber of your being for freeing you from that horrible taskmaster?

    and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Galatians 3:24
    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Galatians 3:25
    But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    You really need to think about that.

    x - Sunday "christian"
    x - Adventist

    not defiled with any women(churches) anymore

  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

    Many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say: The old is better
  4. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    To be a law-keeper is an attempt to remain in control ... which is why it's so prone to failure. It reduces following God to checking off (or not ...) a finite set of do's and dont's.

    And ... I can boast in my law-keeping. After all, I am a Sabbath-keeping, clean food eating, Jewish festival observing, mint-tithing person of God ... as opposed to all those heathenous other christians out there ...

    It's what I'm doing, ... as opposed to ... what God is doing in me.

    Almost sounds like Jesus' parable of the Pharisee ... and the Publican.

    Or ... the parable of the Good Samaritan, who, though he was not quite orthodox in his beliefs and practices (after all, he worshipped in Samaria rather than Jerusalem), ... was far more godly to the man on the street needing his help ... than the likely ultra-orthodox priest and Levite.

    Such love is what distinguishes Jesus' followers, ... to the extent that Jesus made the Samaritan His example of loving one's neighbor ...
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  5. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

    United States
    United Methodist
    But then there is our own personal relationship with the Lord. The whole purpose of the Bible is to induce us to walk with the Lord, wouldn't you say?
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    I agree with you. But I'd add that the priest and the Levite were following the letter of the Law in avoiding contact with a man who appeared dead...at least I'm sure that was their rationale.
  7. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    To be a law keeper, is exactly the opposite as you state. To be a law keeper, is to deny yourself. It's to deny your own ability judge what is and isn't right and wrong. It's to deny leaning on your own understanding. To judge things for yourself, means that you yourself, are judging right from wrong without using the Torah as your standard.

    Tell me this, if we are all to be of one spirit, and one judgement, and you aren't observing the Torah (the instructions that God Himself HAS to follow), how do you obey God? How do you show you love God?
  8. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    By following His Spirit.

    By spending time in prayer with Him, thanking Him for His blessings, asking for His strength, wisdom, and forgiveness for my failures. By praying for the coming of His kingdom. By praising Him for the difference He makes in the world.

    By loving His people ... and other people, feeding hungry bodies, hearts, and spirits. By ministering to the sick and shut-in, by offering the sacrifice of praise to God. By encouraging and praying for my brethren. By modeling and mentoring our youth and meeting regularly with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

    By avoiding drunkenness, sexual immorality, greed, obscene and foolish speaking, and judging my fellow christians. By avoiding hatred, strife, jealousy, and dissensions. By pursuing peace.

    If you wish to serve God by modeling devotion to the Law He gave to Israel, ... I'm delighted to make your acquaintance. But just consider that He may not have called all of your bethren to exactly the same walk ...

    John 21

    15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”

    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”

    He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”

    16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”

    He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”

    He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”

    17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”

    And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”

    Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.


    20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, ... 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

    22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  9. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    So ... Christ is NOT sent, ultimately, to the WORLD ???

    John 3

    16 For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

    2 Corinthians 5

    17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
    18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
    19 that God was reconciling the WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
    20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.
  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

    Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
  11. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    I do not believe it is the mark spoken of in Revelation 13:15-18 and elsewhere in my view. Let's look at it a bit...
    15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his foreheads, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
    We are talking here about a beast and that conjures up thoughts of some sort of being, but that may not be the case at all. I feel we all need to carefully puzzle over Revelation before making any proclamations just as we are warned in James 1:19. (In fact, the key to gaining insight is to silently reflect on passages until the Lord gives insight.)
    This being the case, I'll only give a few hints without declaring them to be the interpretation. I have myself, independently of you mentioning your thoughts and ideas, considered your very point.
    The number of the beast is 666. That number is found in only about 3 places in Scripture. The most notable is...
    I Kings 10:14-15:
    The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents, not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the territories.
    Look at #666...man's number, says the Lord. Man was created on the 6th day. But that's only part of 666. We see in I Kings that Solomon...who was led astray by his many heathen wives received this many talents of gold annually. Can one take a warning that mankind's love and/or greed for money or anything which opposes/replaces God in our life is the anti-christ or the beast which marks? I think we can. We are not to buy into Christ and sell out for any reason or we ourselves become an anti-christ and a temptress to others as well. The mark of the beast would be received. Satan may be the force behind it all.
    Here's a corresponding passage to the above...
    Revelation 13:17:
    ...so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark...
    Think we need a new thread to pursue this though.
  12. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    Obviously I don't, and while this is an excellent point.

    Okay. I'm going to go over each verse you linked, point by point.

    So, the Romans 2:15 verse you linked. If we read the context around it, we see that for one. It's talking to Jews (at least in this specific part), that are teaching Gentiles who are new to the faith (not Judaism, but being part of Israel)

    Look at Romans 1:28-32
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    So, here we see Paul talk pretty bad things about the 10 tribes for what they've done, and tells us how it starts: Them thinking that they knew better than God, and that their ways were better than God's. That world, looked an awful lot like ours today, but that's not the point. He then goes on to say in Romans 2:1

    Romans 2:1
    2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

    Here we see that he tells the Jews he's writing to in this chapter that they cannot judge, period. Because they do the same things as the people they're judging, so by judging, they're condemning themselves because to judge is to place faith and confidence in ourselves. BUT, if they have faith, they then will be found innocent of these things, even though they too are guilty of them, apparently.

    BUT, then, just a few verses away:

    Romans 2:25
    25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    It's good to note that "thou keep" is from the greek word "prasso" which means to practice, or to exercise, and not to keep as we think of it today. What does this matter? I'll show you in a second.

    So, we see here, that so long as you don't judge and do so humbly, you can practice the Torah, because whether or not you transgress it, doesn't matter. It only matters who your faith is in, otherwise, if fulfilling any of the Torah was an instant damnation, Timothy, whom Paul circumcised, would've been damned right then and there, as would all Jews, or anyone else who is circumcised. Is that the case? No. Seeing as, Paul made clear early on in chapter 2, that the important part, is that you don't judge unrighteously, because it's not you that's justifying you, but faith and humility, and you don't know why someone is or isn't in the situation they are in. Only God does.

    BUT, aside from that, not only can you practice the Torah, but it will greatly benefit you as we see in verse 25. But, the only way you aren't held responsible for breaking the Torah, is if you have faith, and don't judge if you're struggling with the issue you're giving advice on as previous verses show. He then goes on to say in chapter 3 and 4:

    Romans 3:31 -
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    You might say that by faith, and no actions, do you establish the law, but then he goes on to say this in chapter 4:

    Romans 4:9-12
    9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

    10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

    In verse 10, we see that the righteousness was reckoned to Abraham before the circumcision, BUT in verse 11, that his seal of that righteousness, was the circumcision. Was that circumcision the reason for his righteousness? No. It was the product of it, and the proof of it. We then see in verse 12, that all of Abraham's seed that are of the uncircumcision will then walk in the steps of that faith.

    What were the steps? They are. 1. Have faith. 2. Become righteous. 3. Get circumcised, sealing that righteousness.

    What is my point? Because, that work, was not why he was saved, but it's the proof of his salvation. The circumcision is part of the law, yet his seed is required to walk the same steps he walked, and get circumcised. And to do as he did and obey the laws, not for salvation, but as their seal of salvation. It's an action, showing your faith, so that Jesus will not describe you as one who confesses Him with your lips, while your heart is far from Him.

    I'm glad you referenced these, for sure. Because they prove something that a lot of people miss. That we are the house of Israel. But you see, before, what Israel had to do before they were brought back into their land, historically, was repent. Come back into His law, and they would be salvaged. Historically, biblically, the lost 10 tribes were never brought back, meaning we're still in dispersion. The only way for us to come back, is for Him to lead us back. We will come again out of the nations, but only when He has cleansed us of all unrighteousness. We must stop bending our knee to ourselves, and devils, and once again follow His Torah, because after all, His Torah was for Israel, forever.

    "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    We don't have to observe 613 laws, Jesus fulfilled all of the sacrificial ones, even before we observed them He fulfilled them. They were never meant to take away our sins, God has always forgiven based on faith. Abraham, Moses, David, and all of the Prophets are testaments to this fact. Even Romans is a testament to this.

    Romans 3:21
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    That word "manifested" is taken from the greek word


    1. 1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

    Later on in 1 John chapter 4, he writes as follows:

    1 John 4:13
    13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of His Spirit.

    What does it look like, when He imparts His spirit on to someone though? If faith, according to the book of Romans, means taking actions, and sealing your salvation in the works that you do?

    Ezekiel 36:6-27 -
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and do them.

    So, 26, shows us that the stony heart we once had, makes it so we DON'T observe the statutes and judgements of God, but the newness of spirit He gives us, makes it so we DO observe it, because He does what to our hearts? He softens it. It goes from stone, to flesh!

    Here's another one, that shows what it looks like for someone to have His Spirit.

    Romans 8:5-8
    5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    We see, that the spirit, is life, and the flesh is death. We also see, that the carnal mind is an enemy of God, because it isn't subject, or in submission to the law of God it then goes on to say that it isn't even able to if it wanted to be.

    Here, you're saying that the law couldn't write those things on the heart, but yet, there are numerous people all throughout the bible, showing otherwise. The truth of God, and what His plan was, was hidden, as it said in Romans chapter 3 in the verse I linked above, but the prophets, Moses, David, Abraham, all of the main people saw otherwise. Because they had the Spirit of God in them. If you're carnally minded, then no. But, if you are led by the spirit, because God is love, therefore His word is loving as well. This is what David reveals in the Psalms.

    Would God write something that would work death in people? No. He wrote that which gives life, but our corrupted minds perceived it otherwise.

    It's not really the Mosaic law either. Genesis 26:5
    Abraham had it.
    Genesis 7:2
    Noah had it, and Lot had it.

    It's only a death sentence if we're so arrogant as to think that through our obedience we will be saved. Our obedience isn't what saves us, it's merely the seal on that which is already done. Our salvation, is that of the work of God, but our seal to that salvation as I pointed out earlier in this post, is faith that results in the actions that prove our faith isn't just all talk and no action.
    The verses in Galatians 3, show us exactly what all of Pauls writings do, as well as the rest of the bible. Most people, aside from a few (David, Moses, Abraham, the Prophets, etc.) all were in the flesh. Therefore, they didn't see what was there and obvious in the law. They felt that they had to keep the law for salvation, when it's written that no one can do that. It was a mystery, that those who lived and were called righteous, were righteous because God justified them, not themselves. They would do the same works as everyone else, but the difference was, they were only doing it to be obedient, and as a seal of their righteousness, not to gain that righteousness in the first place. This is what the schoolmaster was to teach us, that we needed a savior. Not that God's law was sinful, or impossible to keep. It's kept not by keeping it all, but by desiring to keep it, and knowing that if you fail you will be kept alive out of the infinite mercies or rather "sure mercies" as David puts it, of our Elohim, our Father.

    If you then read into Galatians 4, he quotes something from Isaiah.

    Galatians 4:27
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that nearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travails not: for the desolate hath many more children than she hath an husband.

    Then, we go to see what he was quoting, because people don't just quote things for no reason in the bible. There's a reason. It applied to them.

    We then go to see that it was Isaiah 54:1,

    We see that all of this chapter, is about the salvation that is to come by faith. To many nations, Jews, and Gentiles alike. All of those that believe and have faith in God to justify them, aside from doing works of the law. You win right? Not quite, because as we keep reading, we see the same exact theme in the next chapter. Then, in chapter 56, we see that, even though it's talking about the same exact people group, and is going on to identify them even more, while staying on the same topic, in Isaiah 55:6-9, God tells us that He is higher than us in every way, and that we should remember no longer our wicked ways.

    It then says in Isaiah 56, while talking about the same people group, and the same mercies, that if we are to remain faithful, and trusting, and to merely do this simple thing, then our names will be written in the everlasting book of life.

    Isaiah 56:2
    2 Blessed is the man that doth this, and the son of man that layette hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

    This demonstrates the seal of faith, but then, the next verse, demonstrates the importance of keeping that faith that originally made us right with God

    Isaiah 56:3
    3 Neither let the son of the stranger (which is us by the way), that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

    Basically, don't let them wither. He said feed my sheep, in other words, if you hear a brother that needs to be fed, feed them. Those thoughts displayed in verse 3, aren't congruent with scripture. They are thoughts given them by demons, and unclean spirits, and need to be quenched with the word of God. Faith justifies them, and according to the promise of Abraham, nothing they can do can undo that, except for rejecting that promise, but once they enact that seal, regardless, they are saved no matter what. Period. Their seal, is their work, but their salvation, is in their trust of the Father. Not their works. This is what the schoolmaster was teaching, but due to the flesh, it was not understood.

    We then go to the Galatians verse you linked in chapter 5

    if you read a bit further, he states that the circumcision isn't what saves you, and in fact, if you get circumcised with the misunderstanding that you're being saved when it's done, you're exactly the opposite. This is the only thing that it could mean, as proven in the fact that in verse 11

    Galatians 5:11
    11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased.

    Paul was preaching circumcision to others, which means that he was still teaching the law. He wasn't teaching it for salvation, as previous verses have shown, but he was still teaching it, this can be proven in the fact that he then circumcised Timothy to preach literally AGAINST circumcision for salvation. This is because one, he was going to preach to Jews, and two, it's the seal of being saved, not the thing that saves us.

    Insanely long response I know, but I had to respond to each of those verses in context. I doubt that we will ever agree, but it is what it is. I don't work on trying to practice the Torah for salvation, nor do I do it to brag to others. Not many people receive any information implying they should practice Torah well, so if I was doing it to brag, I'd be doing the wrong thing in the wrong way. It's the seal of my salvation, but God is the root of my salvation. Jesus, or Yeshua, depending on which you prefer.
  13. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    You are pouring out your heart, soul and mind about the OT Law not being abolished. While I am tempted to walk away from this thread I feel an obligation to point out a couple passages once again in case you missed my citations.
    Paul says in fact are upholding the OT Law by keeping the command to love (Romans 3:31 and 13:6-7)...love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself. All the sins listed in OT Law are against loving God as first and foremost in one's life...stealing, greed, etc are idolatry...or they are sins listed against one's neighbor. The Law is not done away in that regard it is done away with in how one is now instructed to achieve or continue to fulfill these Laws.
    God tells us through Romans writings above and elsewhere and straight out says it even more clearly in Hebrews 8:12. But read the OT quote above 8:12...
    Hebrews 8:7-9:
    7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel

    and with the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
    declares the Lord.
  14. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    Absolutely He was sent to the world. Actually, just one verse down from that, in verse 21

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    This is a reference to something. Paul is quoting Isaiah 53:6, and it's in reference to the sacrifice Jesus would make

    Then, the next chapter, in verse 2

    2 Corinthians 6:2
    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    It's another reference to Isaiah

    Isaiah 49:7-8
    7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
    8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;'

    We see that, the quote he was referencing was talking about Jesus, and God's plan to save the house of Israel through Him, prophesied about in Isaiah.

    Does this mean that the rest of the world isn't saved? Well, I mean... not really. The good news is as follows.

    Romans 11:11-12

    11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? (referring to the house of Judah whom God divorced) God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    The next part shows, how broad this gift is.

    Romans 11:15

    15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root beholy, so are the branches.

    The whole world can receive the promises. They are supposed to, they just haven't yet. This is that gospel that was foretold, and it's just coming into fruition, but soon, I feel that many more will realize this. Practicing the Torah, isn't for salvation, but the seal of said salvation, as Paul wrote, and as Abraham.
  15. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    I don't mean to debate, we just see things differently I suppose haha.

    But yeah, I definitely agree that those sins were merely the lack of loving God. But, it's not just so simply described as not loving God. It's also not having faith in God. Abraham didn't just get blessed because he had faith, it was also because he kept God's laws, as it says in Genesis 26:4-5 Abraham was counted righteous out of faith, but he stayed faithful, and didn't whore himself out, by obeying the laws God gave him. He gave sacrifices according to the Mosaic law, so it is my belief that the Mosaic law, didn't start with Moses. Hence Noah knowing of clean and unclean foods Genesis 7:2, and using those clean animals to give a sacrifice according to the laws of Moses. Not for salvation, or purification, I feel like he legitimately did it out of thanks, and love though.

    I digress, ignore the whole paragraph above. The meat and potatoes of the moment is now. The only thing really different about the first covenant, compared to the final covenant, was pointed out in chapter 9.

    All of Hebrews 9 points out that, the thing wrong with the first covenant was the fact that the priesthood aspect of it, couldn't do what it was set up to do - purge them of their sins, and justify them therein. Only God could do that. This is something that certain men foreknew, such as David as many of his Psalms reveal. Solomon, at first also knew this, until he forgot God for other gods, and again repented. Nonetheless, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all realized this as well. It's what Jesus meant when He said "go and learn what this means, I desire mercy not sacrifice.". Because He can't have mercy on a soul that thinks by it's own doing it can be forgiven.
    I digress, but, my point is that of what's made in Hebrews 9, only the priesthood aspect of the covenant is what passed, (sacrifices, peace offerings, sin offerings, all of the required acts and processes to be made holy or acceptable e.g.) aka - how they were to be justified. The instructions still remain. The knowledge of what sin is, and how to avoid it remain, but the purification from said sins, is no longer - nor has it ever been in our hands.

    Then, he goes on in chapter 11, to show what I mean by faith as a result of salvation, and not the root of it.

    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    There are more in this chapter. But the theme, is they were saved by righteousness, BUT they sealed that righteousness in their actions. Either by being obedient to something God said, either by vision or audibly, or, more commonly, from them practicing Torah. The ones I linked out of the chapter, were them generally heeding God audibly, but the ones I didn't, generally it was their observance of the Torah. Not FOR salvation, but as a result of their faith manifesting itself in their actions. Such as in Hebrews 11:31, or Hebrews 11:30, Hebrews 11:24-28, there's many more just in this chapter that show what I'm talking about, but it's like 1, and I'm tired. I've been responding to people on this site for like 3 hours trying to get my points across. I need a cookie. Literally, I'm going to get milk and cookies.
  16. Lee Stuvmen

    Lee Stuvmen If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:

    United States
    Thank you for your time and effort in reading what I posted.

    Please understand that what was written in my previous post,

    was not written for you

    or this time or place;
    For the "appointed time" is not yet.

    For it is not given unto men,(even 144,000) no matter how strongly they desire,

    to preach "THE GOSPEL"(good news).

    That has been reserved for the FIRST ANGEL.

    Revelation 14:6
    And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Of course something has to happen BEFORE the first angel can preach the everlasting gospel.

    This something is the 144,000 firstfruits of the living.
    1 Corinthians 15:20
    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    The first outward sign that humans will be able to recognize is when the 144,000 firstfruits of the living have been translated to Heaven as Enoch and Elijah were translated.

    Revelation 14:1
    And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Revelation 14:4
    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    These firstfruits being translated straight to Heaven out of every nation, kindred and tongue in full sight of mankind will;

    -A.) Get the world's immediate attention

    -B.) Establish those that spoke truth from those that speak the bottomless pit of false truths

    -C.) Identify the TRUE SHEEP from the Goats that were so very sure they were sheep

    -D.) Cause great fear to fall upon mankind when they realize they are not the sheep they believed they were

    Revelation 14:7
    Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    -E.) Verify God's COVENANT is, has been, and always WILL BE WITH ISRAEL, not "modern Christianity"

    Revelation 7:4
    And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    -F.) Humble the hearts of the children of disobedience to be instructed

    -G.) Allowing the FIRST ANGEL OF FEAR to preach the everlasting Gospel unto every nation, kindred and tongue

    BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY - God will stop being some debatable fairy tale whose very existence is questioned and become a VERY VERY REAL PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!

    You say we may never agree, but I say that at the appointed time, when fear replaces the calcium in prideful human bones,

    it will be different.

    That day is not afar off!

    Rest assured;
    There will be no Pharisee's among those 144,000

    And it is FOR THAT DAY,
    that these words have been written to be rejected

    by goats, that are so very sure they are sheep,

    that at the APPOINTED TIME they WILL FEAR,

    and humble their hearts to be instructed.

    Revelation 7:9
    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Revelation 7:14
    And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  17. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    Paul teaches that christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit ...

    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13–14)

    2 Corinthians

    21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

    22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

    26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

    27 Neither give place to the devil.

    28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

    29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    It seems as though you look to the Law for that which the Spirit is accomplishing in the New Covenant ...

    Indeed, the Spirit ...

    Convicts us (of sin, ... to bring us to repentance)
    Comforts us (in our struggles)
    Guides/Helps us (in our christian living)
    Facilitates/Interprets our prayers
    Seals us (unto the day of salvation)
    Teaches us/Reminds us (of God's Truth)

    How comprehensive is your New Testament study ?

    Do you have a good overall understanding of what is written there ?
  18. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    So, Ephesians chapter 1, and the first couple verses of 2. If you read on, to verse 17,

    Ephesians 1:17
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and relation in the knowledge of him:

    The "spirit of wisdom"? Where is Paul getting this from? Is he making it up? Not at all, because the OT talks about it constantly. He's again, quoting scripture.

    We then go back, to look at just a few of the times it's referenced in the OT (considering the OT is all that they had back then for scripture)

    Again, it's from Isaiah, as we are called to be like Jesus, so is this chapter in Isaiah. It's about Jesus.

    Isaiah 11:2-3
    2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Here we see that the spirit of wisdom and understanding, causes him not to judge with his own eyes, or ears. Meaning his judgement isn't his own, because he's relying on the judgement of the Father. Does that mean he's not judging matters at all? No, he is, but not according to his own earthly matter of understanding. He's given the spirit, which means that he's not judging according to the world, but the spirit. This doesn't mean that he's judging things in the way that you have described the spirit though, in the way most describe the spirit, it's this essence that can be different for everyone.

    That is not the case. To judge a matter in the spirit, is to judge it's essence. So if Deborah is struggling with porn, what is that to judge in the spirit? How would you judge her situation in the spirit? Deborah is bad because she does this? No. She is being held captive, by the spirit, she is not completely under God's spirit, but another spirit, and by that spirit she is being led. To judge that matter by the spirit, is to identify the spirits plaguing her. The spirits of lust, covetousness, and idolatry. What does the word say about such spirits? By using what the word says, to identify these spirits, and use the word as it's intended, as a sword, you can be rid of these spirits. This is what it means to judge things by the spirit. You're not judging Deborah, because she's already been washed clean by the blood of the lamb, and is already (so long as she believes in Jesus) brought as close as she ever can be. She's already free, but the spirits she's whoring herself out to, keep her in chains. Those chains aren't real, but because she's being led by the flesh, she isn't able to see that which is spirit, and therefore held captive.

    I emboldened "of quick understanding" because of what it says in Ephesians 2:1-5 -

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    I'm going to break this down, because it's too long of a passage to just talk about it all at the end. So, again, he's quoting OT scripture with this saying. It's not something he just made up, it's him quoting from the only scripture that he had at this point in time. The OT.

    Psalm 119:92-94
    92Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
    93I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
    94I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

    Psalm 119:105-107
    105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
    106I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
    107I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

    What affliction is David afflicted by in 107? Regardless, as 92 points out, unless the law had been something David delighted in, he would've perished in his afflictions. The Father's precepts, quickened him out of perishing in his afflictions, as shown in verse 93. This quickening was attributed to his faith in God, not in his actual desiring of the laws though, that's a careful distinction I have to make. Verse 93 points this out. He says that he is his Father's, and asks that He saves him, which displays complete faith. Yet, as a result of this faith and proof thereof, he says "for I have sought thy precepts". He didn't say, save me, for I have kept your precepts, he says, I have sought them. Meaning, I have desired them, and agree that they are good, better than the ways that I once was going. He isn't asking to be saved because of his keeping of them, but because he is his Father's, and the evidence that he is his Father's, is that he sought his Father's precepts.

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the air, the spirit that now worth in the children of disobedience:

    So, apparently, before these gentiles accepted Jesus, they were walking in the ways of the world, and were being led about by the spirits therein.

    Isaiah 55:8-9 -
    8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    The spirits that roam about the earth, are the ways of the earth. We have no ways of our own. We are sheep, and all that means, is that we cannot of ourselves lead. Either we listen to One Shepherd, or the other. So, since we are born into this world, we by nature are of this world, but the whole bible, is God's message to us telling us that while we might be born of this world, we aren't meant for this world. A prostitute sells her body and her dignity flees from her, but that dignity is still meant to be hers, despite her making it flee, it's meant to be hers.

    This is the message of the gospel, that we can take back by faith, what is ours. Rest, and comfort, righteousness, and peace with the Most High Elohim. This isn't because of anything that we do, merely faith on Him, BUT this faith, will result in proof, and a walk that more and more resembles Him as we grow in our faith. As Abraham was justified by faith, and then grew in faith and became circumcised, as his faith made him take steps, so we should walk as well.

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved)

    By the way, I'll point out, that the meaning of grace, simply means undeserved favor. Everyone that has ever been saved ever (aside from Jesus) was because of grace. David, Moses, Abraham, everyone. All have fallen short, and none have been saved apart from grace.

    Again, that highlighted section, was a reference to OT. He didn't just make up the idea of grieving the Spirit of God.

    It's a reference to not only Isaiah 63:10, but also, to the numerous times that Israel rebelled against God, as Isaiah 63:10 displays

    Let's start at Isaiah 63:7 and go until 10
    7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
    8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
    9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
    10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

    If you then look, to see what and how they rebelled. It was by going their own way, not regarding His precepts and laws. For by the transgression of the law is sin conceived.

    His spirit living with us, doesn't mean that we magically can't break the law, it means that we should desire NOT to break the law, and that once we become knowledgable of the law, we should then be moved to start trying to observe it. More and more as we walk and become more intimate with God. My issue with the more grace theology, is that it encourages complete ignorance to the law, which then breeds more and more sin, because no one cares for the law. They go their own way, and are led about in the darkness by things that don't care for them. As David says, God's law is a lamp unto his feet, why? Because, without law, we don't know what sin is, and without knowing what sin is, we don't know how to properly respect God. Love, yes, but His law, is how we come to know Him. So, without wanting to learn of His law, it's basically like going on a free getaway to a timeshare, with no intention of buying the timeshare. Yeah, thanks for the benefits, but I don't really care about the things you're trying to show me.

    Meh, I've got an alright understanding of it, but I can always learn more. As some brothers in Yeshua have pointed out, we're all babies of faith, but, in time we'll learn more and more. Starting to walk upright, and get stronger, etc.

    I just, have come to a point, where, well. I used to only read the NT. That's it. I thought the OT was invalid essentially, just something I should probably read because it's in the bible, but nothing of importance to me. Then, I was shown how valuable it truly is, and how it still applies to all of us, despite modern theologists saying it doesn't.

    Like, when it says in 2 Timothy 3:16 -
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    It never dawned on me, until someone pointed out that, when this was written, the only scripture they had, WAS the OT. This isn't even referring to the NT. Am I saying the NT is invalid? Pfft, no. I'm saying that, all of everything they're saying, is taken from the OT. They quote it constantly, because it's their bible. The only scripture they had. Not only that, but historically, if you look into it (not that you haven't) up until the 3rd century, they still kept passover, and other biblical feasts. It wasn't until they were forced to stop observing them that they started observing the things we still do today.

    I digress with that last point, but my main point is, they quoted from the OT constantly, and didn't go into much detail on the points they quoted, but yet, their points, if you look back to what they're quoting, are completely congruent with what they quote. The things I've brought up, regarding their quotes, I bring them up, because why would we read what they're saying, unless we understand the things they're bringing up?

    If you're a foreigner on a trip to America with a bus full of other foreigners, and you all just finished learning english, how could you possibly understand a joking article ribbing George Bush's presidency, if you aren't informed of the politics that went with it, or if you don't even know who George Bush is? You'll see the jokes, maybe, but mostly, it won't make sense to you. You'll be left to lean on your own understanding, or the understanding of those explaining it to you, even though those who are explaining it to you, are also foreigners with no understanding of who George Bush is either.

    We have to look at what they're quoting, because what they're quoting applies to what they're saying every time. They don't just make up sayings in most cases, they're coming from their own scriptures - the OT scriptures. So, since those scriptures, are references to the points they're making, reading just the NT, without the OT, is like hearing a phone conversation from only one side. You can somewhat make out it's meaning and intent, but not completely, there will always be something missing.
  19. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    United States
    Like Him bringing up the grieving or vexing the Spirit. He didn't just make that concept up, it came from the OT, and in the OT we can see what it means to do that, as I pointed out, we see what it means to vex the Spirit. Same thing with to be quickened, because what it means to be quickened doesn't start in the NT, he was referencing it from what it was shown to mean in the OT. I could've just described it this way, instead of going off in complicated analogies. Hindsight.
  20. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    Come on, Devin ... no one here is ignorant of the Law.

    I, myself, am entering my 50th year of scriptural study, starting with Sunday School as a child, progressing through all manner of Bible studies through the past 35 years or so. Today, I function in the church as a Bible teacher, and, having read through the OT and NT scriptures twice in the past 35 years, I feel like I'm fairly conversant with what is found there.

    The Ten Commandments ... is one the pillars of OT teaching. Ultimately, we receive that teaching in the CONTEXT of what God was doing in the Old Testament (essentially managing a COVENANT with God's OT people, the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews). We understand that it was a covenant of LAW, and that Israel, over millennia, proved that they could not keep it.

    We learned of God giving Israel the Law, beginning in the book of Exodus, and the detailing of the Law in Leviticus, ... and its reiteration in the book of Deuteronomy.

    And we learned of Israel’s ultimate failure to KEEP the Law, to the extent that God brought Israel/Judah into judgment, while promising (through His prophets) to restore His people through the giving of a New Covenant.

    Jesus brought that new Covenant, a covenant of Grace, as opposed to the previous covenant of Law.

    Paul, who had been brought up as a Proponent of the Law, … ultimately taught on the New Covenant, teaching that where, once, God’s people were held accountable to follow the Law, … now they had been freed to follow the Spirit, Who was sent to abide in the hearts of the followers of Christ, upon His own ascension back to His Father.

    This same Paul, who once had been so zealous for the Law that he had converts to Christ arrested, imprisoned, and, in some case, stoned to death, … now declares that Christ’s followers are “dead to the Law”, and urged them to rather follow the perfectly efficacious Spirit.