(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Devin P]

Okay, so, you have no laws then? Because, I said just two. If there are too many to count, you could list at least two.

 

[twinserk]

Romans 7

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

And yet Paul teaches that we aren't to sin, and that sin is breaking of the law. Like everyone else in the bible.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
​

So you are evidently misunderstanding Paul's statements.

 

[Devin P]

It is God, Himself, Who declares that He will write His laws upon our hearts ... and unfailingly guide us with His Spirit. I trust Him to do so.

It's His plan, not mine. I only need have FAITH in Him.

Romans 7

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Right, and I'm not disputing that God Himself won't write His laws on your heart. But, what does that mean? What does this look like?

It looks like this.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

 

[Devin P]

And yet Paul teaches that we aren't to sin, and that sin is breaking of the law. Like everyone else in the bible.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
​

So you are evidently misunderstanding Paul's statements.

Oh snap! Swooping in outta left field dropping truth bombs.

 

[twinserk]

It is God, Himself, Who declares that He will write His laws upon our hearts ... and unfailingly guide us with His Spirit. I trust Him to do so.

It's His plan, not mine. I only need have FAITH in Him.

Romans 7

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

God said that He would write His law upon the hearts of Israel. So unless you've been grafted into Israel, which is under the law, you aren't eligible for this new covenant. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that He said He would right His law on their hearts.

But even so, by your definition, this covenant hasn't come yet. The evidence of which being, christians don't know God's commands instinctively - they have to be taught to them.

 

[RDKirk]

These verses would suggest otherwise.

​

I specified that there was no synagogue in Philippi. Scripture says this specifically about Philippi:

From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of that district of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.

On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer.

If there had been a synagogue, they would have gone to it. They sought outside the city for a place where people might be praying.

Then a few verses later it says this:

One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.”

This woman is not a Jew, she is a "Godfearer," otherwise her status as a believer would not have been a matter of consideration, nor would there be a question of them staying at her house (which would have been an obligation for a Jew).

And then it says this:

They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.”

There is something uniquely different about this time Paul has been taken before a magistrate. In every other circumstance, it's the Jews of the city who are outraged. In this case, the people outraged are Romans, not Jews, and they are specifically talking about "customs unlawful for us Romans" rather than offenses against the Mosaic Law.

The reason for that was stated earlier, which Luke's audience would have understood: Philippi was a Roman colony (and a rather famous one at that).

The abandoned Greek city of Philippi had been near where Mark Anthony's and Octavian's forces had defeated the forces of in 42 BC. Rather than executing Anthony's defeated Roman legions, Octavian permitted them to re-establish Philippi as a Roman colonia, a city inhabited by Romans instead of being a Greek city ruled by the Roman empire.

The legal status of a Roman colonia was that all imperial edicts upon the city of Rome applied equally to the coloniae. Thus, Claudius' expulsion of Jews from Rome in the early AD 40s (mentioned by Luke in Acts 18) also applied to Philippi. This is historical knowledge. That's why there was no synagogue in Philippi when Paul visited, and why it was a crowd of Romans that was outraged.

The congregation at Philippi might have been unique in having been from the start an all-Gentile congregation (and maybe not coincidentally one of Paul's most precious congregations, the one he bragged about the most).

 

[A_Thinker]

And yet Paul teaches that we aren't to sin, ...

I have not advocated sin.

Following the Spirit is, simply, a BETTER way of avoiding sin ... than following the Law.

Hebrews 8

6 Now, however, Jesus has received a far superior ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is superior and is founded on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8 But when God found fault with the people, He said:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
because they did not abide by My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds,
and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.

11 No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their iniquities,
and remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[A_Thinker]

Okay, so, you have no laws then? Because, I said just two. If there are too many to count, you could list at least two.

I could never cheat on my wife.
I could never abandon a friend in need.

 

[A_Thinker]

God said that He would write His law upon the hearts of Israel. So unless you've been grafted into Israel, which is under the law, you aren't eligible for this new covenant.

I think you need to read this ...

John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

 

[A_Thinker]

But even so, this covenant hasn't come yet.

Why is it that you feel this covenant has not come ?

Did it not come by Jesus ?

Hebrews 8

6 Now, however, Jesus has received a far superior ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is superior and is founded on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second.
...
13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[RDKirk]

God said that He would write His law upon the hearts of Israel. So unless you've been grafted into Israel, which is under the law, you aren't eligible for this new covenant. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that He said He would right His law on their hearts.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Gentiles are not grafted onto Israel. Israel was a branch of the root, the root being Christ. Israel was broken off the root.

Gentile believers are grafted onto the root, not to the branch that is Israel--that branch had been broken off.

It was not through the Law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the Law brings wrath. And where there is no Law there is no transgression.

The Mosaic Covenant has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation was never, ever afforded by the Mosaic Covenant.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the Law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Having been killed and resurrected in Christ, symbolized by baptism, no Christian can be wedded to the Mosaic Covenant--the "written code."

 

[RDKirk]

Why is you feel this covenant has not come ?

Did it not come by Jesus ?

Hebrews 8

6 Now, however, Jesus has received a far superior ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is superior and is founded on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second.
...
13 In speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Yes, and the Mosaic Covenant was made obsolete by the destruction of the temple, because there is no way under the Mosaic Covenant to be forgiven of sins except by animal sacrifice.

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. -- Hebrews 9

Either that's the blood of animal sacrifices or it's the blood of Jesus. There is no third option, and the animal sacrifice option is no longer available.

 

[Devin P]

I could never cheat on my wife.
I could never abandon a friend in need.

Both of which are laws of God.

 

[stuart lawrence]

These verses would suggest otherwise.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.​

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.​

Oh, right. That's why every christian instinctively knows the ten commandments without them being taught to them. They're written on the mind and heart! How stupid I am.

You are continuing to ignore the fact that Acts 21:25 is once again speaking about circumcision. It's directly in the preceding verses. But we won't reason that in, frivolous details.



So in essence, you've made yourself into god. Something isn't wrong, unless you think it is, or feel guilty about it.

God expresses what is right and wrong inside scripture. Your own conscience being the only judge of what's right is very convenient - and entirely unbiblical. The Messiah spoke about people who paid lip service to obeying God, yet refused to do so. Perhaps God hadn't convicted them about obeying Him yet.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.​

Well if you dont know the law God desires you to keep is written by God himself on the believers mind and placed in their hearts I suggest you read Jeremiah ch31 & hebrews chs 8&10.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know, what us placed in your heart must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it.
And in Acts 21:25 the leaders of the church reconfirmed to Paul their decision made tears earlier to only ask gentiles to obey four laws, proving your belief that was only for initial conversion to be false. Your continually stating it was all about circumcision is irrelevant. Gentiles were only asked to follow four laws
Your idea that Gods laws can be treated as arbitrary, ignoring what you feel like while obeying a few others sounds like antinomianism to me

 

[Devin P]

Well if you dont know the law God desires you to keep is written by God himself on the believers mind and placed in their hearts I suggest you read Jeremiah ch31 & hebrews chs 8&10.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know, what us placed in your heart must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it.
And in Acts 21:25 the leaders of the church reconfirmed to Paul their decision to only ask gentiles to obey four laws, proving your belief that was only for initial conversion to be false. Your continually stating it was all about circumcision is irrelevant. Gentiles were only asked to follow four laws
Your idea that Gods laws can be treated as arbitrary, ignoring what you feel like while obeying a few others sounds like antinomianism to me

You do know, that the only people God writes His law on, are the hearts and minds of Israelites right? That is the covenant that is new, and of which is only ever promised, and made, to Israelites. Which also by the way, are required to observe the law. So either, God's promise of salvation is for you, and you're by faith an Israelite, who is out of faith to keep His Torah as best as you can, and as best as you know how with whatever circumstances He places you in, or you're lawless, and you're a gentile, omitted entirely from the gift of salvation. There's two paths. There are sheep, and there are goats. Sheep, are Israel, only. That is the only people group ever named sheep, Israel. Whom the law of God is for, so if you're not a sheep, then Jesus can't be your shepherd, and if Jesus isn't your shepherd, you're not Israel. So if you're not Israel, the gift of salvation can't be for you. I can explain it 10 different ways, with bible verses asunder, but until God lets you see it, it's gonna get us both nowhere.

If Jesus is your shepherd, then you're a sheep of Israel, and the law is for Israel. There's no way around that. As far as writing it on your heart, it means that you will WANT to do it. Not that you'll somehow magically know the law of God without ever seeking it out. No, this is why He's a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, and not a rewarder of those that do nothing to seek Him, and are just magically given knowledge of Him. We are magically given knowledge, but that knowledge is a revelation, and guess who biblically revelation only happens to? Israelites, or gentiles that then become Israelites soon after the vision is given them.

 

[Devin P]

Well actually, that's not true. God gave revelations to non-Israelites. Pre-Israel in Genesis. Abraham, Lot, and Noah are examples of those that had visions and were not Israelites (because Israel hadn't been born yet)

BUT they still practiced the law of God

----------------Abraham------------------
Genesis 26:5 -
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Genesis 22:13
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

What's the big deal, a ram so what right? No. Rams are mentioned in the law of God as one of the clean animals acceptable for burnt offerings.
-----------------Noah------------------
Genesis 7:1-2
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Genesis 8:20
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Straight from the "Mosaic law" those offerings were given up

So no. I stand corrected, it wasn't ONLY to Israelites that He gave visions and revelations. But He mainly did. Basically, He either gave them to an Israelite, one who was going to become an Israelite, one who by their future offspring would the Israelites come, or, to a gentile that had an Israelite around to translate for them. But, basically always an Israelite.

 

[stuart lawrence]

And yet Paul teaches that we aren't to sin, and that sin is breaking of the law. Like everyone else in the bible.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
​

So you are evidently misunderstanding Paul's statements.

It is you who is misunderstanding.
The believer dies to righteousness of observing the law

God said that He would write His law upon the hearts of Israel. So unless you've been grafted into Israel, which is under the law, you aren't eligible for this new covenant. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that He said He would right His law on their hearts.

But even so, this covenant hasn't come yet. The evidence of which being, people don't know God's commands instinctively - they have to be taught to them.

Really?
This covenant hasn't come yet?

Paul writing to gentiles:

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts
2cor3:3

 

[stuart lawrence]

Concerning disputable matters. Paul writes:
Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgement on DISPUTABLE matters rom14:1

In other words, you can hold to either view concerning such things

Paul then goes on in the chapter to give examples of disputable matters.

One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind
Verse5

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean then for him it is unclean
Verse14

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. ALL food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes another to stumble
Verse20

One man who believes the law still stands for all Christians to avoid the Levitical unclean foods said Pauls referral to ALL food as clean only referred to vegetables.
Therefore verse 14, according to him should read:

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am fully convinced that no Vegetables are unclean in themselves. But if anyone regards vegetables as unclean then for him they are unclean

And verse20 should read:

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All vegetables are clean but it is wrong for a man to eat vegetables if it causes another to stumble.

It is extraordinary the lengths people will go to in order to justify overturning what is plainly written.
Same as they try and explain away, what according to their beliefs must mean the Jerusalem Church gave gentile converts a licence to sin( Acts ch15&21:25)

 

[A_Thinker]

Both of which are laws of God.

Yes ... the Law which God has written upon my heart, ... not unlike the admonition to be "continuing in prayer" ...

That is one that the Lord and I are working on right now ...

 

[A_Thinker]

The believer dies to righteousness of observing the law

Another way to think of it ...

We do not receive or produce any righteousness by observing the Law, ... as we cannot effectively keep it (i.e. ALL of it).

It's like ... trying to please God by building a "house of cards". We can get 99 cards placed, ... but one false move, ... and all of that potential righteousness comes tumbling down.

That being the case, ... the Law can only CONDEMN us.

Our righteousness comes by OUR LIFE IN CHRIST. We have received His righteousness ... and we can live in it.

God says ... STOP trying to build your own righteous "house of cards". Live in the house I have built for you ... as my sons and daughters."