(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

A_Thinker

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I mean no harm or irritation by saying this, but you have to read more carefully my brother.

Here is a quote from my last message to you. **NOTE** **Read the blue**

"Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church."

Yeah I didn't mean to make it sound like I was saying that the tree had anything to do with the god of Saturnalia, I said it was a pagan practice that had been practiced for thousands of years. It's something that historically, Pagans did, looooooong before Jesus. Long enough before Jesus that God felt it necessary to warn us of their practices."

Again, I didn't mean to sound so harsh or offensive in saying it like that, this thread has just gone on for a long time, and I'm exhausting myself haha.

Once again, ... christians didn't use Christmas trees for 15 centuries after the establishment of Christianity. and that usage began in Christian Germany. There is no connections between ancient pagan customs and the present day use of christmas trees. There's at least a millenium-long GAP between the two.
 
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RDKirk

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Okay, so, with Jesus, a new priesthood came about, meaning that there is no longer a need for the priesthood of Aarons lineage, not only that, but without a temple, we cannot sacrifice, and without Godly ordained judges, we cannot judge a matter enough, to stone. But, there are laws that - whilst in dispersion - we can still observe. There are laws that we CAN'T observe, either because we're in dispersion, or because Jesus fulfilled them (e.g. the sacrifices), but there are laws, statutes, commands and decrees we still can observe. We need none of these things for tzitzits, we need none of these things for the biblical feast days, we need none of these things for observing the sabbath, and we need none of these things for giving back to someone 2x - 5x what we stole from them (if we steal, which obviously, don't steal haha).

That is precisely what the Hellenist "Judaizers" who hounded Paul had been doing. After being taken away from Judea into slavery (first by Greeks, then by Romans), they clung to Judaism by the few laws they could fulfill away from the temple and where they had no control over much of their lives.

And Paul most certainly defied their intentions, vehemently so (see Galatians).
 
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GingerBeer

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"Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church."
I'm not sure why you went to "Judaism online" as your source for information about Christmas trees. Not that Christmas trees are very important to Christians but your post appears to make them into something they are not and never have been. Romans in the first centuries AD did not have trees in their homes to decorate in December. That practise came to English speaking lands during the reign of queen Victoria and it came from Germany with Albert her husband. These "facts" you referred to before are nothing but fictions.
 
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A_Thinker

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The two tribes that God didn't divorce, kept the laws. They still are today. But, the 10 tribes that were sent into dispersion, were never brought back. He promised to bring them back one day. I say this, because you have to know it for what I'm about to say - not that you didn't already, but at the very least, it's fresh in your mind now.

So ... there is, today, ... a tribe of Benjamin ?

Just to get the history correct, ... BOTH the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and the Southern Kingdom (Judah) eventually were judged by God, and sent into captivity.

The Northern Kingdom (Israel) went into captivity sooner, basically, because they had no good kings.

The Southern Kingdom (Judah) had a few good kings, Hezekiah, Josiah, Asa, Jehosephat, etc., and so, lasted some years longer.

ALL of the tribes were sent into dispersion ... and ALL of the tribes will be brought back (see Revelations)
 
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StevenBelievin

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It's not that it's done away with, but those in Christ are not under it.

Romans 6:14

Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

Romans 10:4

Yes that includes the 10 commandments written on stone.

2 Corinthians 3:7

Also Paul has the 10 commandments in view when he speaks of law since he uses coveteousness as an example in Romans 7.

Romans 7:7
 
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GingerBeer

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The two tribes that God didn't divorce, kept the laws. They still are today. But, the 10 tribes that were sent into dispersion, were never brought back. He promised to bring them back one day. I say this, because you have to know it for what I'm about to say - not that you didn't already, but at the very least, it's fresh in your mind now.

Okay, so, with Jesus, a new priesthood came about, meaning that there is no longer a need for the priesthood of Aarons lineage, not only that, but without a temple, we cannot sacrifice, and without Godly ordained judges, we cannot judge a matter enough, to stone. But, there are laws that - whilst in dispersion - we can still observe. There are laws that we CAN'T observe, either because we're in dispersion, or because Jesus fulfilled them (e.g. the sacrifices), but there are laws, statutes, commands and decrees we still can observe. We need none of these things for tzitzits, we need none of these things for the biblical feast days, we need none of these things for observing the sabbath, and we need none of these things for giving back to someone 2x - 5x what we stole from them (if we steal, which obviously, don't steal haha).
Keeping the Law of Moses is not possible. It can't be done because there are no priests of Aaron's line, no temple in Jerusalem, and no animal sacrifices being offered by the priests in the temple in Jerusalem. That being so it follows that Christianity is not Judaism nor Judaism-lite nor modified-Judaism. Besides which Jews today reject Jesus and refuse to call him Christ (or Messiah) so why do you look for their approval by citing their web site as source for the claims you made about Christmas trees? It's kind of strange to go looking for the approval of a different religion for your religious views; may as well go to Hindu sources to find approval for what you believe and do. And you cannot keep any of the feasts that Moses wrote about. All of those feasts required animal sacrifices and since you don't offer animal sacrifices in your religion you cannot keep the feasts that Moses commanded to be kept. It's crazy to be hankering after animal sacrifices when you are a Christian. That is one of the fundamental lessons of Christ. No more feasts with animal sacrifices. The only feast Christians keep is the Lord's supper and the only sacrifice Christians have is Jesus himself.
 
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Devin P

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Once again, ... christians didn't use Christmas trees for 15 centuries after the establishment of Christianity. and that usage began in Christian Germany. There is no connections between ancient pagan customs and the present day use of christmas trees. There's at least a millenium-long GAP between the two.

So, my assumption that it was an evergreen tree is wrong. Pagans DID cut down trees (sometimes they'd leave them be) But generally, back in Rome, they didn't cut them down, they used shrubs and would decorate them.

"In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.

Tertullian (circa 160 - 230 CE), an early Christian leader and a prolific writer, complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel at Christmas time."

The modern-day Christmas tree, although other civilizations have used them in connection with the sun-god, the god saturnalia is for, the 1600 use of a christmas tree, wasn't about that. Same tree that other civilizations (the vikings for example) used to represent the sun god, and the origin is for the same feast in worship of the sun god (saturnalia), and the romans that first combined the two while they did use evergreens, it wasn't the full tree. I only assumed, so my bad. Still, too many similarities regarding the sun god for me to keep up with that tradition. Especially since God Himself said in Jeremiah 10:2

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

He didn't specifically say evergreen, but nonetheless, he also didn't say evergreens were cool to use. The point still remains that pagans still worshipped with whole trees. They would also cut and manipulate the trees, but in worship to the sun god, or Asherah, and other gods they would worship whole trees, again, they'd also cut them, but whole trees were worshipped. So yeah, I incorrectly assumed they cut down the whole tree back in Rome. They used evergreen trees in some occasions, but only shrubs, or trimmings and clippings from the evergreen trees were used to represent the sun god. Other civilizations still used the evergreen tree to worship the sun god though, and the festival that became christmas was based on and dedicated to, primarily the sun god of the pagans, so, we can agree to disagree, but I don't find it a good thing to worship with something having that many connections to paganism. Same tree, same god, same traditions, despite God telling us not to do that which we do, just because He didn't specifically say the tree of evergreen is bad, He also didn't say it was good, and could be cut down and decorated in our homes as the heathens did. Same festival, with our God's name on it, idk. If you're cool with it, be cool with it, I'm just pointing out these things that turned me off of it.
 
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Devin P

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It's not that it's done away with, but those in Christ are not under it.

Romans 6:14

Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

Romans 10:4

Yes that includes the 10 commandments written on stone.

2 Corinthians 3:7

Also Paul has the 10 commandments in view when he speaks of law since he uses coveteousness as an example in Romans 7.

Romans 7:7
Being under it, means we are ruled by it. We are ruled by grace, but that grace doesn't do away with the law. Being under something, means that your salvation is based on it. Ezekiel 36:26. We are to be led by His Spirit, and He Himself says that His Spirit, will cause us to obey His laws carefully. It's fine if you don't desire that, I'd rather you did, but to each their own. I'm not trying to argue, that was never the intent of this post, but it's definitely happened. I chose to obey God to the best of my abilities, being justified by faith, but still out of faith, walking in that faith by observing His decrees. Not for salvation, but because of it. I felt the exact same way you do before, but then I was introduced to some information that made me feel an entirely different way, and opened up much more of the bible than had been previously.
 
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A_Thinker

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Same festival, with our God's name on it, idk. If you're cool with it, be cool with it, I'm just pointing out these things that turned me off of it.

It's not the same festival. Saturnalia was a festival held on December 17, and, from your description, more like Mardi Gras, ... than what we see at Christmas.

And regarding the use of Christmas trees, ... is it your position that christians cannot make use of any of God's gifts to us, ... that pagans happened to have used before ???
 
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Devin P

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It's not the same festival. Saturnalia was a festival held on December 17, and, from your description, more like Mardi Gras, ... than what we see at Christmas.

And regarding the use of Christmas trees, ... is it your position that christians cannot make use of any of God's gifts to us, ... that pagans happened to have used before ???
It went from the 17th until the 24th, and on the last day, the 25th, it was like the culmination of the festival. The best day of all.

And no, don't be silly.. I just personally don't feel like I should worship my Father on a day that is heavily rooted in paganism. From the tree, to the mistletoe, to the saying of ho ho ho, there's (aside from the name of Jesus slapped on top of it all) not many things there have anything to do with God. It convicted me, especially after I found out that up until the 3rd and 4 centuries they still observed the biblical feast days, and even kept the sabbath on the 7th day (until the Romans outlawed the 7th day sabbath that is anyway). There is a way that God wishes to be worshipped, and that's in Spirit, His Spirit. But as Ezekiel 36:26 shows us, that Spirit, will cause us to search after His Torah. But, due to tradition I realized that we today, are observing tradition, and not what God wants us to observe. That's my personal opinion, and if you don't agree, I understand, but it's how I choose to live my life. To get better at observing Torah, more and more each day.
 
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Devin P

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It's not the same festival. Saturnalia was a festival held on December 17, and, from your description, more like Mardi Gras, ... than what we see at Christmas.

And regarding the use of Christmas trees, ... is it your position that christians cannot make use of any of God's gifts to us, ... that pagans happened to have used before ???
Look into Constantine. He forced (by threat of death) that people stopped worshipping God with Passover, and instead, celebrate Easter. That, and Sabbath as well. If they were caught celebrating these things, they were to be killed.
 
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A_Thinker

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It went from the 17th until the 24th, and on the last day, the 25th, it was like the culmination of the festival. The best day of all.

Actually, it could last until December 23rd, ... and there was no culmination of the feast on the 25th.
 
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Devin P

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Actually, it could last until December 23rd, ... and there was no culmination of the feast on the 25th.

"Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman."
 
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Devin P

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Christmas was actually outlawed in the US when we were a young nation, due to it being so ridiculous. Things got out of control when people first celebrated Christmas. Up until we got a bit more established, and people forgot about the banning, it crept back up, and we've been observing it ever since.
 
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Devin P

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But I digress, Saturnalia isn't the important part. Finding out that early followers of the Messiah kept the 7th day sabbath, and the biblical feast days until the 3rd century when they were forced to adopt pagan holidays, or else they'd be killed, really helped to secure my confidence in observing Torah. This is the important part.
 
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claninja

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Which Law do you suppose, Jesus was speaking about in these verses?

Mat 5:17,18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I believe these verses mean the torah and the prophets. Nothing in the Torah or the prophets will change until heaven and earth pass away, til it is fulfilled.

When Paul speaks of the Law in these verses, which Laws is he speaking of, which Laws are fulfilled in Christ, therefore, which Laws are written on the hearts of the believers?

Heb 10:6-22
As we can see in Matthew 5, Christ fulfilled the Torah and the prophets. We know Christ fulfilled all the laws of the Torah. In the verses you quoted (hebrews 10), the author is talking about how Christ fulfilled the priestly religious duties. As a result, Christ did away with the first to establish the second. There is no longer need for sacrifice. This would mean there is a change in the law. This would mean that the old covenant (old heavens and earth) has been done away with.

The law that is written on the hearts of the believers is to love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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JIMINZ

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I believe these verses mean the torah and the prophets. Nothing in the Torah or the prophets will change until heaven and earth pass away, til it is fulfilled.


As we can see in Matthew 5, Christ fulfilled the Torah and the prophets. We know Christ fulfilled all the laws of the Torah. In the verses you quoted (hebrews 10), the author is talking about how Christ fulfilled the priestly religious duties. As a result, Christ did away with the first to establish the second. There is no longer need for sacrifice. This would mean there is a change in the law. This would mean that the old covenant (old heavens and earth) has been done away with.

The law that is written on the hearts of the believers is to love your neighbor as yourself.
.
So superficial, no depth of understanding.
You right, it's all about loving our neighbor. :oldthumbsup:
 
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A_Thinker

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"Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman."

Once again, my study of objective sources (i.e. encyclopedias) say that the Saturnalia festival lasted, at its longest, until the 23rd. Someone is playing fast and loose with the facts on this subject ...

This is exactly what I found to be true 30+ years ago.
 
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A_Thinker

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Christmas was actually outlawed in the US when we were a young nation, due to it being so ridiculous.

Actually, due to the Puritans who first settled American and, along with their witch trials, ... disdained all holidays except the Sabbath.
 
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claninja

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So superficial, no depth of understanding.
You right, it's all about loving our neighbor. :oldthumbsup:

I appreciate your humility and grace to a fellow believer who is not as smart as you.

So I'll leave you with this. I have a wife and if I tell her I love her with my words , but there is no action, do I really love her? No

How do I love God, with just words? No. I show my love for God by loving my neighbor as myself : Matthew 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,
you did it to me.’

And that is how the whole law is fulfilled. Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Men know that there is God, they have no excuse for that: Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Not all men know Christ, hence the gospel must be spread. Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Pagans knew how to love each other without the law. But pagans would not have known the specifics food restrictions or temple practices unless they had the law to teach them.
 
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