(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

Devin P said:

I'm sorry, I must've been missing your statements. What is your stance on all of this? I went back to look, but I couldn't find them v.v

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Too many pages to wade through, but I'll leave you with my latest post (previous that is to the one here you responded to) post#235 (p. 12).
I believe Scripture tells us we are under a new covenant/the old is obsolete. (Hebrews 8, esp. vs 13)
We still uphold the Law, but in the new way of the Spirit (Romans 7:6 and Romans 3:27-31)
That's it, quite condensed.

Devin P said:

Jesus only came for Israel. For those that were the lost sheep of Israel. When the word tells us that there is no difference between gentiles and jews, it's saying that because, they become one in Jesus. Two tribes remained faithful enough that God didn't divorce them, Judah, and (this is under debate but many believe it to be) Benjamin. The other 10, were scattered amongst the nations, and never were brought back. They never, were brought back. They were to be brought back after Jesus ascended, and they were of gentile origin, and after coming to Jesus, were to become Israel. But, those laws, were for Israel, that is why I say it isn't done away with, aside from the fact that Jesus literally tells us it wasn't done away with. It biblically speaking, wouldn't make any sense for the law to be done away with, because Jesus Himself said that He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, meaning, to whom He comes, are Israel. So, if He's your shepherd, then you, are part of one of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, for whom the law was made.

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I think if you are serious about being faithful to God and desire the truth I suggest you read Nehemiah, Isaiah, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, 2 Kings, the gospels, and Acts asking God to give you understanding because the teaching of "the lost 10 tribes of Israel" is false and nothing more than a myth with no biblical basis. Neither are the ten tribes of gentile origin. This is an anti-semitic falsehood. The scriptures clearly show that the tribes of Israel have never been physically lost. When Jesus spoke of going to the lost sheep of Israel He was speaking of the lost spiritual condition of the people in Israel to whom He ministered among sharing the news of God's kingdom and salvation.

Why do you care whether or not the Law is done away with? Are you a Jew?

I am surprised by how many people who cite the law do not read the whole thing. The law, explicitly and repeatedly, at the front and the back, tells you exactly who it is for: Hebrews physically at Mt. Sinai, and their lineal, physical descendants living in Israel. Those are all the people to whom the Law ever applied.

if you READ the law, you will see in it that there is no promise at all of life after death or favorable final judgment. The ONLY reward the law promises, for following ALL of it, is that the Hebrews will continue to enjoy their physical farm in the physical land of Israel.

To be clear, the law does NOT say: If you follow the Ten Commandments, you go to Heaven. It never, ever says that. Not once. It never even HINTS at it. All that the law EVER SAYS is that if a circumcised Hebrew living in Israel follows it, along with the bulk of the rest of the Israelites, they will get to continue to keep the farms God gave them in Israel. The REWARD for keeping the law is NOT avoidance of Gehenna, or passing final judgment. There is not one single reference to the afterlife as a reward in the entirety of the Torah - not one. Following the Law does not gain YOU life after death. ALL THAT IT DOES, and ALL THAT IT EVER DID, was get a Jew his farm in Israel.

Now, thing is, the Law SAYS THAT right on its face, over and over again. Christians choose not to read that part of it. They choose to assert that all of those "Thou shalts..." and "Thou shalt nots..." will gain them everlasting life, or the fire. That is not true. The Law DOES say that not a word can be added to it - and making salvation dependent on keeping the law IS adding to the Law.

So, now consider what Jesus is saying. He's talking to Jews in Israel. That's where Jesus was born, that was his people, that's to whom he taught. Jewish Israel was obsessed with its Law. Its traditions - NOT THE LAW - had taught the Jews that their Law is what made them special, so they read out of the law the territorial business, and they read into it a supreme righteousness (which they did not possess) from following parts of a law that offered a farm in Israel as a reward.

The Mosaic Covenant was never extended to Christians. The Apostle was correct when he says that if you put yourself under any of the law, you have to get circumcised and put yourself under ALL of it. But the Apostle did not go on and apply the law and finish the sentence and say "IF you want that farm in Israel". Because THAT is the ONLY THING promised to the Jews under the Law.

It was Jesus, not Moses, who offered eternal life with God in the City of God. Moses never said a word about Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, final judgment or the City of God. The Law is a LAND DEAL for HEBREWS. AND IT SAYS SO. And it SAYS not to ADD to it, which is what Christians have tried to do since the First Century, when they have tried hard to make following the law part of the CHRISTIAN covenant. It isn't.

Jesus said that the Law shall not change, at all, in any way. That INCLUDES being expanded and rewritten to now also offer eternal life. If you want eternal life, the Law is irrelevant - the Law will give you a farm in Israel.

Now, to a Jew in Israel, that was still important (maybe still is). But if you're not a Jew, you can read the law too, and see that it says on its face that you are not under it.

And then you can stop worrying about it and just focus on what Jesus said that applies to you. The Law does not never did, and cannot be MADE to, because it SAYS that it can't change at all. Adding salvation to the Law is changing it.

This is obvious when one carefully reads the Law. it TELLS YOU who it applies to. That's not YOU. And Jesus says flatly that the law will not change at all, so it STILL doesn't apply to you, because the Law will not change.

If you're a Jew, you have to consider the Law. If you're not, the law is a snare for you. So read it and SEE that it SAYS it doesn't apply to you. It applies to circumcised Hebrews in Israel (and Sinai before they got there). And that's not you.

Now read the line of Jesus that you are reading: whoever changes the Law even a little bit is least in the Kingdom. Now, Jews may have been changing the law by saying "Let's become Greeks!" In which case yes, they would lose Israel - per the law. But now, Gentiles, too many Christians, read the law and say "We must follow it, it's from God!" NO! Yes, it IS from God. And yes, you must "follow" the law - by reading it and seeing that it's NOT FOR YOU, and that following will never get you anything but a farm in Israel...and seeing that as a Gentile, you're not even getting THAT.

And thus the Law becomes a snare, because Jesus is saying that it will never change a jot nor a tittle, and you're reading that to mean YOU have to follow all of it. But in truth the Law - which can't change - tells you that your part of it is outside. So stay outside where you belong and follow Jesus - he tells you that to gain eternal life you have to follow HIM, and he takes you to a different place than Moses. Moses takes you to Israel. Jesus takes you to God.

Devin P said:

Being under it, means we are ruled by it. We are ruled by grace, but that grace doesn't do away with the law. Being under something, means that your salvation is based on it. Ezekiel 36:26. We are to be led by His Spirit, and He Himself says that His Spirit, will cause us to obey His laws carefully. It's fine if you don't desire that, I'd rather you did, but to each their own. I'm not trying to argue, that was never the intent of this post, but it's definitely happened. I chose to obey God to the best of my abilities, being justified by faith, but still out of faith, walking in that faith by observing His decrees. Not for salvation, but because of it. I felt the exact same way you do before, but then I was introduced to some information that made me feel an entirely different way, and opened up much more of the bible than had been previously.

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The problem is the minute you add any works to grace then you're obligated to keep the whole law. It's either all works or it's all grace. There is no 95% grace and 5% law, which is what you're doing if you say you're saved by grace but use the law as a guide. You're still trying to follow the law. By the way, I never said I didn't want to obey God or resist sin, it's just that not being under the law is what gives the believer the power to do that. Law keeping kills. Period. It's only purpose is to teach us we cannot keep it and need a savior who kept it for us. We are dead to the law through Jesus so that we can now serve God in the spirit.

StevenBelievin said:

The problem is the minute you add any works to grace then you're obligated to keep the whole law. It's either all works or it's all grace. There is no 95% grace and 5% law, which is what you're doing if you say you're saved by grace but use the law as a guide. You're still trying to follow the law. By the way, I never said I didn't want to obey God or resist sin, it's just that not being under the law is what gives the believer the power to do that. Law keeping kills. Period. It's only purpose is to teach us we cannot keep it and need a savior who kept it for us. We are dead to the law through Jesus so that we can now serve God in the spirit.

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You understand Pauls message don't you:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Great post BTW

RDKirk said:

What actually needs to happen (to have happened from the beginning of this thread) is that everyone in it state what meaning of "law" he was working with.

Most of the debate here is people expounding on their own meaning for "law."

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe Christians should keep the full set all 613 Mosaic Covenant ordinances, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe Christians should keep various subsets of the 613 Mosaic Covenant ordinances, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe there is a fundamental law of which the Mosaic Law was just a shadow, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

Unfortunately, there was no definition of the term "law" going into this thread, so we have a lot of people expounding over, under, around, and through each other.

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My guess is that an Adventist, whose faith is CENTERED on Mosaic law observance, posted this thread.

I have past personal experience with this group(many many years ago in my search for truth), hence my assumption.

Galatians 5:4 ended that association.

I could be wrong.

There are unpleasant consequences to sin.

If anyone wants to live by the law PRAISE GOD. Its not just the 10 commandments its 613. You obey ALL or you fail in all. And Jesus made it very clear. Love the lord your God.. all your mind soul body.. love each other as your self.. blah balh blah.. in this you do ALL the law.

And.. for some Xmas or the day Jesus rose.. they dont see that. They see what some man did on a day that a GOD made. So.. my thinking is.. what some human did ..has no power over what a GOD my God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ did. Now.. they never did anything well its not written each year when Jesus was written nor when He rose. Yet.. when ALL HEAVEN rejoiced when Jesus was born.. My Father has NEVER once told me to NOT celebrate His birth or when He rose.

So..if for you its a sin on Xmas or any other.. praise GOD! IF I was around you ... I would do just what you did.. when I got home the next year I would and love to EVERY DAY.. remind my Father and on my face.. so thankful Jesus came.. and rose. This is just me.. and I am not here to please man.. but my Father

Devin P said:

But, when the Romans combined Saturnalia with Christianity, more than just Saturnalia was involved, a few different pagan festivities were joined in, the tree was one of them. It wasn't just about saturnalia observance, it was pagan observance, and pagans have many gods, not just one. Saturnalia was based around one of their gods, the tree worshipping was another.

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You are right on the mark regarding the Romans.

Actually Devon, it appears that it is even worse than that!

I have copied and pasted some highlights, plus the link if the highlights intrigue you.
You already have the pieces of the puzzle.
Mithra - Wikipedia


According to M. J. Vermaseren, the Mithraic New Year and the birthday of Mithras was on December 25.

Clauss states: "the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own.

The festival of Natalis Invicti, held on 25 December, was a general festival of the Sun, and by no means specific to the Mysteries of Mithras.





Did you know that the early rival of "Christianity" in the 2nd and 3rd centuries was a "Sun Worshiping" religion known as Mithraism?


Could the word "Mystery" in Revelation 17 really refer to a Satanic Counterfeit Mystery Religion that has taken over the whole world?

Would that sound crazy enough?




Mithraism, also known as the Mithraic mysteries,

was a mystery religion centred around the god Mithras

that was practised in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to the 4th century CE.





Early Christian apologists noted similarities between Mithraic and Christian rituals, but nonetheless took an extremely negative view of Mithraism:

they interpreted Mithraic rituals as evil copies of Christian ones.

For instance, Tertullian wrote that as a prelude to the Mithraic initiation ceremony, the initiate was given a ritual bath and at the end of the ceremony, received a mark on the forehead.



He described these rites as a diabolical counterfeit of the baptism and chrismation of Christians.

Justin Martyr contrasted Mithraic initiation communion with the Eucharist:



Mithra (Mithras or Mica (Michael)

• In Rome, Mithras was a sun god

• In Persia, he was a god of the morning sun.

Persian and Parthian-speaking Manichaeans used the name of Mithra current in their time for two different Manichaean angels.

• • The first, called Mihryazd by the Persians, was the "The Living Spirit" (Aramaic rūḥā ḥayyā), a savior-figure who rescues the "First Man" from the demonic Darkness into which he had plunged.

• • The second, known as Mihr or Mihr yazd among the Parthians, is "The Messenger" (Aramaic īzgaddā), likewise a savior figure, but one concerned with setting up the structures to liberate the Light lost when the First Man had been defeated.

Got your attention?



Stop letting humans stand over your shoulder and tell you where the prophetic pieces should go, and you will understand a whole lot more!

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Blade said:

If anyone wants to live by the law PRAISE GOD. Its not just the 10 commandments its 613. You obey ALL or you fail in all. And Jesus made it very clear. Love the lord your God.. all your mind soul body.. love each other as your self.. blah balh blah.. in this you do ALL the law.

And.. for some Xmas or the day Jesus rose.. they dont see that. They see what some man did on a day that a GOD made. So.. my thinking is.. what some human did ..has no power over what a GOD my God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ did. Now.. they never did anything well its not written each year when Jesus was written nor when He rose. Yet.. when ALL HEAVEN rejoiced when Jesus was born.. My Father has NEVER once told me to NOT celebrate His birth or when He rose.

So..if for you its a sin on Xmas or any other.. praise GOD! IF I was around you ... I would do just what you did.. when I got home the next year I would and love to EVERY DAY.. remind my Father and on my face.. so thankful Jesus came.. and rose. This is just me.. and I am not here to please man.. but my Father

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Each one of us has our own definition of "law" and "commandment." Our actions have consequences so it's good to have a few rules to live by, I think.

Devin P said:

I definitely believe that there is a huge deception that has gone on. After all, the bible tells us that the devil has deceived the whole world, not part of it, but the whole world.

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YES!

The WHOLE
: complete or full : not lacking or leaving out any part

WORLD
:the inhabitants of the earth :the human race

DECEIVED
:to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid


Now understand this;

A world that DOES NOT KNOW TRUTH

CANNOT TEACH THAT WHICH IT DOES NOT KNOW!


And everything we have learned, from our language to how to tie our shoes was learned from the world.

What I am saying is this;

As long as you listen to convincing explanations of the "deceived" which cannot teach what they do not know, you will ALWAYS be steered by half truths and outright lies.

I know what you have been taught makes complete sense to you, but cannot the same be said about Sunday observers?

When you stand all by your little lonesome self before God, is that the time to find out you were deceived?

The people that thought the world was flat were not stupid people. They just lacked certain information.

Information is the key.

Please don't reject information simply because it conflicts with what you have been taught by a deceived world.

The only thing that keeps Sunday observers from seeing the truth is what they THINK they ALREADY KNOW.

Don't be like them!

You already have the pieces of the puzzle. The world has told you where certain pieces HAVE to go.

Would a deceived world really know where they should go?

If the WHOLE WORLD IS DECEIVED, can you really trust anything you have learned from the world WITH YOUR LIFE?

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


You already have a head start realizing the truth about the Sabbath!

Who is "Spiritual Israel" in the last days?
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Was Christ sent to "Christians" or those that keep the 10 Commandments?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

With great love,
Lee

Ah so here is where the traffic went. Hope to be back.

Devin P said:

This makes no sense. This would then make you your own God, knowing good and evil.

Ezekiel 36:27 - And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Deuteronomy 11:18 - Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

His spirit, will cause you to want to obey what He declares Holy and Unholy, not what you decide it to be.

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Note, Jesus said seek ye first the kingdom of God, and "His" righteousness.

Deuteronomy 30:11-16
11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Jesus referenced this scripture when He said the following verses:
Luke 17:20-21
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He referenced God in Deut, because that's exactly what God told them on mount Sinai. He made us in His image, and is called the God of hosts, because we were for Him. He is made to reside within us. Whatever god, you desire, is that which will overcome you. If you desire Him, and His ways, Him and His righteousness will overcome you. But, you can't desire His ways without having faith that He will justify you, because to have faith in yourself, or in your own ways, is to make yourself a God, as Satan tempted Eve. We are not to lean on our own understanding, and judge this from that, but on His, and His instructions or Torah, or as we translate it, law. It's not a law though, it's His instructions. As it said in the verse I linked:

"I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply"

All that is not of God, is sin and death, but His ways, are truth and life. That's why Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life. Because, He, is our Bridegroom, and He taught all that the Torah teaches. He even tells us to listen to the Pharisees, because what they say, and preach, is Torah, but He warns us to be against their actions, because they make things up for themselves and go their own ways.

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No, it doesn't make me my own God since God is the one who teaches me the rules. Read Jeremiah 31:33.