[MOVED]Are you lawless?

LoveofTruth · Aug 21, 2015

Some will say that the law says to love God and your neighbour, is this done away they ask?

Telling a sinner that they must love God and their neighbour, does not give them the power to do so. It simply condemns them when they are not in that. It is like the sinful young men walking along seeing the glass house and it has the sign, "dont throw stones at this house or you will go to jail, you must be loving to me" that still will not make them loving. That law still will only expose their sin.

But the believers is in that love and needs no sign. God in Him teaches him to love.

WailingWall · Aug 22, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Interesting explanation. Do you think that the church should still teach the law? Why or why not?

I do

ISAIAH 8 [16] Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.[17] And I WILL WAIT UPON THE LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.[18] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?[20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

LoveofTruth · Aug 22, 2015

WailingWall said:
I do

ISAIAH 8 [16] Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.[17] And I WILL WAIT UPON THE LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.[18] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?[20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

For those who desire to teach the law today

." 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "(1 Timothy 1:5-7)

Rick Otto · Aug 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Some will say that the law says to love God and your neighbour, is this done away they ask?

Telling a sinner that they must love God and their neighbour, does not give them the power to do so. It simply condemns them when they are not in that. It is like the sinful young men walking along seeing the glass house and it has the sign, "dont throw stones at this house or you will go to jail, you must be loving to me" that still will not make them loving. That law still will only expose their sin.

But the believers is in that love and needs no sign. God in Him teaches him to love.

Moral law is not the essence of the Sinai convenient. Mosaic law is sacrificial, not moral.

The big problem here is the casual misuse of ambiguous terminology.
"The law" is so vague as to suggest to shallow consideration, that it is a monolithic body of all encompassing stuff.

WailingWall · Aug 22, 2015

ISAIAH 8 [16] Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.[17] And I WILL WAIT UPON THE LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.[18] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?[20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.
For those who desire to teach the law today

." 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "(1 Timothy 1:5-7

Your not saying Isaiah was doin some vain jangling are you?

BobRyan · Aug 26, 2015

Matt 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Meowzltov · Sep 8, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Interesting explanation. Do you think that the church should still teach the law? Why or why not?

The early Christians studied the Scriptures, and by that we know it means the Law and the Prophets. Why should we be any different?

Meowzltov · Sep 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
Animal sacrifices of Heb 10 --- brought back?

The temple will be rebuilt, and with it will come the return of sacrifices.

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Dear posters,

There is a perpetuating rumour around at certain sub-forums that Christians are lawless. The impression being given is that Christians believe that laws of God (all of them) are done away with and that Christians believe that no one is bound to any laws of God given before the Cross.

While I am pretty convinced that Christians still believe in the use of at least the Two Great Laws and teach the Ten as having a very firm place in theology, the accusation leveled at Christians is that they are no longer believed as binding.

So what is it? Is the law done away with entirely? Are you a bunch of antinomians, drooling after your lusts in a blind haze of licentiousness? Or are you confident that you can live by the Spirit and those commandments are guidelines for those who don't yet have the Spirit? Have you another view?

Or what?

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"this is the NEW Covenant ...I will write My LAW on their mind and heart" Heb 8:6-10

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2015

And then of course there is the signature -

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith, C.H. Spurgeon
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

==============================

Which also answers the question

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2015

Open Heart said:
The temple will be rebuilt, and with it will come the return of sacrifices.

Not sure if that will happen.

If it does - Hebrews 10 is not in favor of it.

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
All true Christians are not without law to God. But the law we are in is the law of Christ , the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus,

And as Heb 8:6-10 tells us - the TEN Commandments are Christ's Commandments.

LoveofTruth · Sep 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
And as Heb 8:6-10 tells us - the TEN Commandments are Christ's Commandments.

No you miss it. He is not writing the ten commandments , of don't don't don't on our hearts, But he sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts by the holy Ghost. those is the law of the spirit not of the letter, the letter kills, and it was a ministration of condemnation and death, and it is Moses law and the old covenant, it is done away and abolished in its ministration for believers. We are not under the law or bound by it, we are free from the law, and the law is not of faith, we read of the "end of the law", and being dead to the law etc.God did a new thing a new covenant, not like the old.

One of the dangers Paul shows is that the Jewish believers of the circumcision group wanted others to be circumcised to glory in their flesh. This is what the circumcision signifies, if you be circumcised you are a debtor to do the whole law. But Paul rebukes this thinking. The early church was struggling with law, and we read of this in Acts 15 and 21, and we see there that the law of Moses was not for the gentiles in those chapters. It was fading away for the Jews and decaying and the whole old covenant was fading but they were still struggling with it as scripture clearly shows.

Read 2 Cor 3 over and over and pray as you do and ask God to remove the veil on the heart in reading any of the Old testament.

Christians are not without law to God, we walk in the love of God that fulfills the intention of the law, the law was showing men that they are not in the love and rest of God, the law could never make the person perfect or else we would not have needed Christ.

bugkiller · Sep 9, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Dear posters,

There is a perpetuating rumour around at certain sub-forums that Christians are lawless. The impression being given is that Christians believe that laws of God (all of them) are done away with and that Christians believe that no one is bound to any laws of God given before the Cross.

While I am pretty convinced that Christians still believe in the use of at least the Two Great Laws and teach the Ten as having a very firm place in theology, the accusation leveled at Christians is that they are no longer believed as binding.

So what is it? Is the law done away with entirely? Are you a bunch of antinomians, drooling after your lusts in a blind haze of licentiousness? Or are you confident that you can live by the Spirit and those commandments are guidelines for those who don't yet have the Spirit? Have you another view?

Or what?

Not at all. The Christian heart has been changed and following the leading of the Holy Spirit isnt following to do with the law. Gal 3:18

bugkiller

bugkiller · Sep 9, 2015

Christus Discipulus said:
Yes, people do confuse the issue.

We are under the law in the sense that it is God's will for us, he wants us to be obedient, and if we love Christ, we will have a desire to keep the law. We can not be perfect in this life, but we should be showing signs of improvement day by day.

However, if you are Christian, you are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Keeping or not keeping the law is not what we are going to be judge by in so far as our salvation goes. You will be judged by Christ, in so far as your Heavenly rewards go, according to your behavior, but you are still saved from God's eternal wrath.

Then you must be saying those who aren't law observant aren't Christians. Coincidence isn't obedience nor observance.

bugkiller

RC1970 · Sep 9, 2015

bugkiller said:
Then you must be saying those who aren't law observant aren't Christians. Coincidence isn't obedience nor observance.

bugkiller

You are generally correct. It's the intent of observance that is at issue. It's the difference between trying to be observant to please Christ as opposed to pleasing men.

LoveofTruth · Sep 9, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Dear posters,

There is a perpetuating rumour around at certain sub-forums that Christians are lawless. The impression being given is that Christians believe that laws of God (all of them) are done away with and that Christians believe that no one is bound to any laws of God given before the Cross.

While I am pretty convinced that Christians still believe in the use of at least the Two Great Laws and teach the Ten as having a very firm place in theology, the accusation leveled at Christians is that they are no longer believed as binding.

So what is it? Is the law done away with entirely? Are you a bunch of antinomians, drooling after your lusts in a blind haze of licentiousness? Or are you confident that you can live by the Spirit and those commandments are guidelines for those who don't yet have the Spirit? Have you another view?

Or what?

You misunderstand the letter and the Spirit, and the law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death. You misunderstand the ministration of the Mosaic law and the law of the Spirit .Paul dealt with similar people, who he said received the Spirit by the HEARING of faith and then they were trying to go back now after they had the Spirit to the works of the law, he rebuked them for it. Galatians 3, and 5

A;l believers in Christ are NOT WITHOUT LAW TO GOD. We are in the law of Christ the law of the Spirit this is different them n the Mosaic law and the Old Covenant. Believers fulfill the law by having the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. They have no confidence in the flesh and works of man. The law is not of faith and the law is not made for a righteous man but for sinners.

If a believer walks in love and the fruit of the Spirit against such their is no law. The words "against such", are telling. if a person walks in the flesh the law is against them. But as believers we are to walk in the spirit and so there is no law against us. By the law is the knowledge of sin, the law was to reveal that men are not in the rest and love of God to wards God and their neighbour. But when they come to that rest in Christ and love of God and their neighbour they walk in a new and living way, in Christ as their head. God works in them to make them perfect unto every good work.

LoveofTruth · Sep 9, 2015

Christus Discipulus said:
You are generally correct. It's the intent of observance that is at issue. It's the difference between trying to be observant to please Christ as opposed to pleasing men.

"
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:2-11 kjv)

notice that some today do similar, they claim to have the law of the Spirit written in their hearts ( love) and then they try to go back to the law of Moses to be perfect in such things as sabbaths etc and feats days, circumcision, tithing etc.

bugkiller · Sep 9, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Interesting explanation. Do you think that the church should still teach the law? Why or why not?

What are you really asking? Do you think the Church should teach people its OK to do evil?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Sep 9, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
The Apostle Paul seems to do a very good job edifying most of what is commanded as far as obedience and ordinance. Funny enough, the same people who dismiss the teachings before Christ also tend to dismiss a lot of Paul's teachings as well.

Paul states that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom, everyone from sexual vanities to thieves to murderers- he is a testament in and of himself that it was never seen or intended that the teachings before Christ be obsolete thereafter.

Interesting enough Paul says the law isn't for the righteous in I Tim 1 and we must use the law lawfully.

bugkiller

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