"mother" Teresa - an Agnostic, or Even Athiest...

[renniks]

"The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me." (Teresa's words.)

I'm not sure what you missed in that statement, in its context, but can you show me where any Patriarch, prophet or apostle ever said anything akin to that level of emptiness? "There is NO God in me." [emphasis mine] Injecting any measure of benevolence into that seems wasted, for to do so is to claim she didn't speak what she meant. That is an emphatic declaration that God is not in her.

She seemed to know that God is not in her, beyond any measure of doubt, and yet people continue to JUDGE her as not saying what she meant. Folks seem to be fetishly attached to their emotive arguments about someone they've chosen to admire, and yet who is saying to them, "There is no God in me." What is this senseless defense against the words spoken by someone they have chosen to admire irrespective of any respect for what that person said to the contrary for any reason to admire them?

Jr

Have you read all her writings, or just that segment? Did she always feel this way or was it just a period of her life?

 

[MrsFoundit]

I'm not sure what you missed in that statement,

Nothing, I did not miss any of it.

in its context,

A private journal and letters to friends. Subjective, expression of a mood, or a state of mind, not an attempt to preach or state objective truth.

but can you show me were any Patriarch

They are making her a saint, not a Patriarch.

, prophet

They are making her a saint, not a prophet.

or apostle

They are making her a saint, not an apostle.

"There is NO God in me."

She is not Jesus speaking there, so there is a question to ask. Did Jesus Christ think she was right?

 

[MrsFoundit]

Have you read all her writings, or just that segment? Did she always feel this way or was it just a period of her life?

It is from the back leaf of the book, it is not a whole or complete representation of her thoughts. She did feel it for a long time, but she lived a fair long time, so?

 

[DamianWarS]

There is nothing in that chapter akin to what Teresa said when she stated, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I may be a bumpkin, but I can tell the difference between a spade and diamond.



Well, I don't see any reason to force the words of the psalmist down to the level of a declaration that, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I see nothing in Psalms that dips down to the level of her words. All the waxy shinola in the world cannot gloss over the depths of her words, thus allowing a comparison that simply has no continuity.

Jr

Why are you so inflamed by these words? The bible is full of struggles like these (If Jonah had a journal what would it say?) and this "dark night of the soul" is well accepted. You seem to be arguing that this line puts it on another level... I just don't see that. Depression can grip you in ways that nothing else seems right. Unless you are trying to accuse her of some unforgivable sins why can't these be left as a deep personal anguish that we are not going to be able to figure out here. Written words do not have the luxury of sleeping on it and feeling much better in the morning, once they are penned they remain that way in a static state for as long as the words last in time, we read her worst not her best.

 

[dqhall]

There is nothing in that chapter akin to what Teresa said when she stated, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I may be a bumpkin, but I can tell the difference between a spade and diamond.



Well, I don't see any reason to force the words of the psalmist down to the level of a declaration that, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I see nothing in Psalms that dips down to the level of her words. All the waxy shinola in the world cannot gloss over the depths of her words, thus allowing a comparison that simply has no continuity.

Jr

Teresa may have been discouraged by resistance from Hindus and Moslems who opposed Christianity and tried to outlaw preaching the Gospel.

Her orphanage and school may have radiated love. She wrote about love, peace and tenderness. She spoke about sharing food and clothing with the poor, about Jesus dying to help the poor. She was able to love the poor as she met them face to face. They were more than statistics on a page.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

Every Christian experiences 'the dark night of the soul.'
It is easy to judge someone based on a few of their words. She said so much more than that.
I do not understand why you are judging her soul. Her actions speak for themselves.
"By their fruit you shall know them."
She gave her entire life to God, by serving the poorest of the poor. We should all be half the human being- the servant, she was.

 

[Cis.jd]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

snip

Jr

Is your avatar Jon Snow?

*it's too small for me to confirm.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

I wouldn't judge her or anyone else as to whether she's an atheist or agnostic or any other shade of belief or unbelief. I leave such judgments to God.

 

[Blade]

What a great woman of God. Thank you Father for how you moved through her in Jesus name.

 

[HatGuy]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

Maybe when life has kicked you around a bit, and you too find yourself surrounded by the pain and misery and poverty she was surrounded with every day, you'll realise that your idealistic view of the Christian faith is simply idealism, and you'll find the God found in the Bible offers more than a perpetual happy smile.

 

[MrsFoundit]

And THAT is the basis by which so many people judge Teresa contrary to her own words? WE humans are the qualified arbiters of her emotional state?

You are a human.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Have you read all her writings, or just that segment? Did she always feel this way or was it just a period of her life?

What arose from the research is that she was pretty much in that pit for more than 40 years. No diagnosis of depression or anything else has become public. None of the priests over her are quoted as having even an inkling of any idea there was anything in her but a normal, well adjusted individual working to help others.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Why are you so inflamed by these words?

Do you suggest I assume she was the type of woman who spoke lies and deceptions, half truths, a type of slight of hand syllogism, banter.....what? Almost everyone here seems to consider themselves authorities over her mindset and mental health. THAT is what I'm after. Who here can say for sure that her words can be classified as something other than a lack of faith, as her own words give indication. Everybody's an authority, but nobody has anything derived from a qualified analyst who actually spent time with her to dig deep into her thoughts and beliefs in order to glean something akin to the absolute truth.

I'm not blaming her admirers who want to apply wishful thinking toward their beliefs about her. It's a natural, human thing to do. A number of the replies have been nothing more than that, and I leave them to their beliefs. My approach is the depth and clarity of her words. Words have meaning, and to accuse Teresa of not saying what she means, that captures my curiosity.

Paul revealed the mystery of the Gospel to us all when he said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Then I read Teresa's words where she says, "There is no God in me." What's astounding is how many people seem to know better than Teresa that the God void in her was NOT empty, almost as if her adherents have the powers of Deity. They cast her words off into some other realm of ethereal interpretational rules that aren't even written down so far as I can tell, but are rather subjective to feelings and emotions.

This is an interesting study of responses.

Jr

 

[Rescued One]

This topic is slightly crazy. No one knows her final thougts.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Every Christian experiences 'the dark night of the soul.'
It is easy to judge someone based on a few of their words. She said so much more than that.
I do not understand why you are judging her soul. Her actions speak for themselves.
"By their fruit you shall know them."
She gave her entire life to God, by serving the poorest of the poor. We should all be half the human being- the servant, she was.

Well, you appear to be sitting too high on your own horse of judgment to have read what I said. I am not saying where she ended up one way or the other in eternity. I'm address only her words that she wrote. We can all learn from words like hers. You either accept what the Lord has said to us, or you do not when He said that He would NEVER allow His people to be tempted beyond their means to escape. That passage, and many other, give ample evidence to the fact that none of us should ever have to allow ourselves to get to the point that we declare "There is no God in me." That is an extreme that I'm trying to address and explore. Our salvation is not by works, otherwise Christ died for nothing.

So, do we believe what the word of God says, read Teresa's words for what they say, and learn from it all, or do we stay seated on the general bandwagon and tout the party line? Paul instructed that we "Prove ALL things..." He didn't say for us to avoid the topics where there are strong emotions that cloud many people's better judgment. Good works are NOT what gets any of us into Heaven. There is only ONE name under Heaven by which we are saved. So, when Teresa wrote that letter to John Paul II. imploring him to push for more and more veneration of Mary, and I couple that with, "There is no God in me," and many other statements of absolute she conveyed, I'm left wondering about the sheer power that group-think has over the beliefs of so many.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Is your avatar Jon Snow?

*it's too small for me to confirm.

No. It's Orlando.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Maybe when life has kicked you around a bit, and you too find yourself surrounded by the pain and misery and poverty she was surrounded with every day, you'll realise that your idealistic view of the Christian faith is simply idealism, and you'll find the God found in the Bible offers more than a perpetual happy smile.

Now THAT is a fatalistic thought. How sad.

As to having been kicked around in life, don't let that picture fool you. I'm much older than that young fella. Been there, done that. We have God's promises, and if you choose to not believe them, that's your problem. I for one have experienced deliverance many times.

Jr

 

[renniks]

What arose from the research is that she was pretty much in that pit for more than 40 years. No diagnosis of depression or anything else has become public. None of the priests over her are quoted as having even an inkling of any idea there was anything in her but a normal, well adjusted individual working to help others.

Jr

But you didn't answer my question:
Did you read her book or just that section?

 

[HatGuy]

Now THAT is a fatalistic thought. How sad.

As to having been kicked around in life, don't let that picture fool you. I'm much older than that young fella. Been there, done that. We have God's promises, and if you choose to not believe them, that's your problem. I for one have experienced deliverance many times.

Jr

Nah, that's not the problem. Admittedly, my tone was wrong, but that's because I've seen too many Christians trivialise others' pain under the label of them not "having enough faith" or "not believing God's promises" and that grates me. It's not fair on such people.

The OP appears to trivialise Theresa's pain, as if pain is not a normal part of Christian life and there was something wrong with what she said. This despite that Acts 14:22 says we must go through many afflictions to enter the Kingdom of God, and many other such verses.

Of course God delivers, but not always as we expect. Going through darkness and pain is normal and even Christians have to go through it. But even in the letters you quoted, you can see she held out to hope. She was faithful in her call. In fact, I know of very few people who have been faithful to their call who have not experienced something of what she says there to one degree or another.

I just think it's unfair to trivialise anyone's pain. You asked for thoughts, and those are my thoughts. I think God lets us go through suffering to refine us, and He delivers, sure, but He also often delivers only way past midnight. For His own good reasons that make sense in the end.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Human weariness can get the better of us sometimes, especially those of us who have dedicated ourselves to helping others. We see the pain and misery or even tedium of existence and it can be hard to see God in such an environment. Maybe she was more susceptible to depression and this could explain the hole she feels and as someone whose gone through his fair amount of depression yet not even the slightest of challenges when compared to Mother Theresa I can understand her position here and still call her a Christian. She obviously didn't want to feel that way, she obviously didn't want emotional pain and baggage she was going through and that to me shows that her conscience is in good order because knew how she ought to be in Christ.