"mother" Teresa - an Agnostic, or Even Athiest...

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Of COURSE it does.

Peace, Jeff.

No, it doesn't even appear to.
(deleted related posts)

 

[brinny]

No, it doesn't even appear to.
(deleted related posts)

Yes, it is related, Jeff.

Peace.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, it is related, Jeff.

Peace.

Again, not in this thread's topic. Totally different.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Yes, it is related, Jeff.

Peace.

Again, not in this thread's topic. Totally different.

See post #23.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

See post #23.

Nothing about that post, or any other of your replies to me, has anything to do with the topic of the thread.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in

I see no reason to expect endless mindless joy from all believers at all times, or call anyone who ever has a hard day a hypocrite. People are not frauds for honestly exploring their thoughts to themselves on paper.

As for your strange remarks about "allegorical" and "translation errors", no one is calling this diary of a human being you are quoting the word of God. I could understand a fuss about meaning if anyone was. As it is .

 

[MrsFoundit]

The claims some make about such in relation to OT and NT figures rings hollow compared to what we can read in Teresa's words.

"OT and NT figures" are actual real people, who suffered and doubted. No way do Teresa's words carry more weight than God's.

 

[brinny]

Nothing about that post, or any other of your replies to me, has anything to do with the topic of the thread.

i already responded, Jeff.

My response is in post #23. There is no need to repeat myself Ad Nauseam. I disagree with your presumption that my posts are unrelated to the topic of this thread.

I will not be responding any further to your posts. Please do likewise and do not respond to any of my posts.

Thank you kindly.

 

[renniks]

If you have never doubted, how can you ever hold on to God in the way Jesus did, even when he felt abandoned? Most of the people we call saints went through dark periods of the soul.

 

[misput]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Our personal experiences don’t always match up with what the Bible says. That’s a fact of life.

 

[Curtis.Hilliker]

I’ve wondered where God went in my life for almost a decade now. So much pain but what is worse is that I really feel like the Holy Spirit left me. Maybe this is how she felt.

 

[Dale]

I was not judging anyone. I quoted the words of someone who has been given a place of honor whose words were not the words of faith as we can read from Paul of Tarsus, who was stoned and left for dead, beaten time after time, and yet continued to lift up the Church wherever he went.

It's about the words, dude, not judging the person. To assume she's in Heaven is no less a judgement of her than to say she is burning in the pits of Hell. We don't know. Her words seem to indicate that we can't say one way or another with any absolute degree of certainty. Yes, there are those who have already made their judgement about her, but I'm not going to do that one way or the other. Jesus is Lord, and He alone sits on that Throne, which I'm thankful for.

Jr

The first Catholic sermon I ever heard was at the Cathedral in Miami. The Archbishop held up Mother Teresa, still very much alive, as a model for everyone to follow. He held up her life as evidence that the Catholic system is working.

 

[DamianWarS]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

have you ever read Psalms? try Psalms 88

1 O Lord, God of my salvation,
I cry out day and night before you.
2 Let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry!

3 For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
5 like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
6 You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep.
7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah

8 You have caused my companions to shun me;
you have made me a horror to them.
I am shut in so that I cannot escape;
9 my eye grows dim through sorrow.
Every day I call upon you, O Lord;
I spread out my hands to you.
10 Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah
11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
12 Are your wonders known in the darkness,
or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

13 But I, O Lord, cry to you;
in the morning my prayer comes before you.
14 O Lord, why do you cast my soul away?
Why do you hide your face from me?
15 Afflicted and close to death from my youth up,
I suffer your terrors; I am helpless.
16 Your wrath has swept over me;
your dreadful assaults destroy me.
17 They surround me like a flood all day long;
they close in on me together.
18 You have caused my beloved and my friend to shun me;
my companions have become darkness.

Sheol is translated by some as "Hell" where death, the grave, the pit and going down are all synonymous

I don't know the place that Mother Teresa was in when she wrote it nor do I care for posthumous honorific titles, but I suspect it was a similar place as the psalmist here.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Mother Teresa went through a prolonged "dark night of the soul". To quote the senior devil Screwtape in CS Lewis "The Screwtape Letters, as he wrote to Wormwood, a junior tempter -

"... Now it may surprise you to learn that in His efforts to get permanent possession of a soul, He relies on the troughs even more than on the peaks; some of the His special favourites have gone through longer and deeper troughs than anyone else ..."

Since Mother Teresa was possibly the most outstanding saint of the 20th century, one would expect her to have gone through "longer and deeper troughs than anyone else...".

To continue

"...He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning (of a new Christian's walk - my insertion). He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. But He never allows this state of affairs to last long. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs - to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot 'tempt' to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks around upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."

I would say that in Mother Teresa's case she looked "upon a universe from which every trace of Him seemed to have vanished, and asked why she had been forsaken, and still obeyed".

 

[Aussie Pete]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

It's not what is done for God that counts in eternity. God looks at the source. Is initiated and empowered by Christ? If so, it stands forever. If not, it is combustible and will be consumed by the fire of God's judgement. Who gets the glory? If it is Lord Jesus then God is well pleased. Otherwise, no.

 

[SwordmanJr]

I see no reason to expect endless mindless joy from all believers at all times, or call anyone who ever has a hard day a hypocrite. People are not frauds for honestly exploring their thoughts to themselves on paper.

As for your strange remarks about "allegorical" and "translation errors", no one is calling this diary of a human being you are quoting the word of God. I could understand a fuss about meaning if anyone was. As it is .

"The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me." (Teresa's words.)

I'm not sure what you missed in that statement, in its context, but can you show me where any Patriarch, prophet or apostle ever said anything akin to that level of emptiness? "There is NO God in me." [emphasis mine] Injecting any measure of benevolence into that seems wasted, for to do so is to claim she didn't speak what she meant. That is an emphatic declaration that God is not in her.

She seemed to know that God is not in her, beyond any measure of doubt, and yet people continue to JUDGE her as not saying what she meant. Folks seem to be fetishly attached to their emotive arguments about someone they've chosen to admire, and yet who is saying to them, "There is no God in me." What is this senseless defense against the words spoken by someone they have chosen to admire irrespective of any respect for what that person said to the contrary for any reason to admire them?

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Our personal experiences don’t always match up with what the Bible says. That’s a fact of life.

And THAT is the basis by which so many people judge Teresa contrary to her own words? WE humans are the qualified arbiters of her emotional state? Her defenders are degreed psychoanalysts qualified to say that she was definitely depressed as measured against the other decades of her life? Paul counted it joy to suffer for Christ, to have been beaten for His name's sake, and yet some people feel licensed to turn the tables to the extent that they claim to know from what basis Teresa spoke those words? Generally speaking, I'm amazed at how many who will say, "Judge not....," turn right around and judge.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

The first Catholic sermon I ever heard was at the Cathedral in Miami. The Archbishop held up Mother Teresa, still very much alive, as a model for everyone to follow. He held up her life as evidence that the Catholic system is working.

Ironic, isn't it? "There is no God in me," and yet the Catholic system is working.... Any "system" that is man-made works only to the extent that it has wealth. Pull the money out from under any one of them, and they collapse into a heap.

So, do you suppose her being empty of God is the result of that system, or is it simply a part of what comprises who Teresa chose to be in her religious life?

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

have you ever read Psalms? try Psalms 88

There is nothing in that chapter akin to what Teresa said when she stated, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I may be a bumpkin, but I can tell the difference between a spade and diamond.

Sheol is translated by some as "Hell" where death, the grave, the pit and going down are all synonymous

I don't know the place that Mother Teresa was in when she wrote it nor do I care for posthumous honorific titles, but I suspect it was a similar place as the psalmist here.

Well, I don't see any reason to force the words of the psalmist down to the level of a declaration that, "The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me."

I see nothing in Psalms that dips down to the level of her words. All the waxy shinola in the world cannot gloss over the depths of her words, thus allowing a comparison that simply has no continuity.

Jr