"mother" Teresa - an Agnostic, or Even Athiest...

[SwordmanJr]

Nah, that's not the problem. Admittedly, my tone was wrong, but that's because I've seen too many Christians trivialise others' pain under the label of them not "having enough faith" or "not believing God's promises" and that grates me. It's not fair on such people.

For the sake of clarification on my part, I'm more concerned about how all this affects others and their faith, their understanding of what's empirical within scripture AND the words of Christ. It's not at all a matter of trivialization of pain and suffering. Oh my, those things are real in the Christian experience. What makes the difference is how we arise from those pitfalls in life, given what we're told in [Rom 8:28 KJV] "And we know that ALL things work together FOR GOOD to them that love God, to them who are the CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE." That last part especially should be sobering to us all. seeking out to be found of Him that He may call us according to His purposes, THAT is a worthy pursuit. Jesus laid it down in simple terms when He said in [Jhn 14:15 KJV] "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

So, Teresa is a fantastic example at whom we can cast a thoughtful eye, and contrast her words with those of scripture, see the differences, and gauge our lives in relation to the most perfect way, and thus never despairing to the point of declaring the utter absence of God in our lives, which is a stark contrast to [Mat 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

The OP appears to trivialise Theresa's pain, as if pain is not a normal part of Christian life and there was something wrong with what she said. This despite that Acts 14:22 says we must go through many afflictions to enter the Kingdom of God, and many other such verses.

Oh, no. Not at all my intent. My thought process in all this is to allow the continuance of this thread to develop the higher ideals the authors of scripture tried to convey, especially the One who inspired it all. Those most precious gems we can dredge up can greatly enrich the lives and understanding of many. The RJW's (religious justice warrior) are the kill-joys who will always thrash and trash what they don't understand. It is the more thoughtful who I am appealing to in the hopes that they may use this vehicle to do the greatest good toward others who read this thread, building them up in whatever situation they are in at the moment, or are about to enter.

I just think it's unfair to trivialise anyone's pain. You asked for thoughts, and those are my thoughts. I think God lets us go through suffering to refine us, and He delivers, sure, but He also often delivers only way past midnight. For His own good reasons that make sense in the end.

One sometimes finds himself having to play a dirty part to elicit from others whatever pearls they may house in their shells....

Jr

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

Hmmmmmm.....ok, my thoughts

Throughout God's Word, God's people struggled with a perceived "abandonment" by God. This includes Job, and David, and even Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, when He, upon the cross, cried out "My God my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?!" We ALL Struggle with this. Elijah was so depressed that he wanted to die.

It is no different for Mother Teresa.

Haven't you ever struggled with this?

I have.

I can relate to Psalm 13 and this song that is based on Psalm 13.

Beautifully said!

I think part of carrying our cross is to feel a small measure of the abandonment that Christ felt with His Father. I would rather feel it here, then eternally in hell. It's not true abandonment for God only knows how to love and can never stop doing that. It's the feeling of not feeling His presence that causes the soul to grieve Him. Just like Jesus it is important to feel the presence of the Father. It's the same with us that want Him. Very difficult to go through, but if one keeps the faith then one will triumph in the end. Jesus also felt abandoned by His apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane. A painful experience. I guess that the price for being sinners although Christ was not one and suffered the most.

 

[brinny]

Beautifully said!

I think part of carrying our cross is to feel a small measure of the abandonment that Christ felt with His Father. I would rather feel it here, then eternally in hell. It's not true abandonment for God only knows how to love and can never stop doing that. It's the feeling of not feeling His presence that causes the soul to grieve Him. Just like Jesus it is important to feel the presence of the Father. It's the same with us that want Him. Very difficult to go through, but if one keeps the faith then one will triumph in the end. Jesus also felt abandoned by His apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane. A painful experience. I guess that the price for being sinners although Christ was not one and suffered the most.

EXACTLY. This helped me understand the book of Job as well. He was deprived of any sense of the presence of God which was excruciating for him, especially since he did not know why, and after he had lost all of his children in the blink of an eye AND it seemed to him at that time that God was nowhere to be found.

He could've penned those very words Mother Teresa penned, and in a sense he did, as he poured out his anguished soul.

Thank you for what you posted.

God bless you.

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

EXACTLY. This helped me understand the book of Job as well. He was deprived of any sense of the presence of God which was excruciating for him, especially since he did not know why, and after he had lost all of his children in the blink of an eye AND it seemed to him at that time that God was nowhere to be found.

He could've penned those very words Mother Teresa penned, and in a sense he did, as he poured out his anguished soul.

Thank you for what you posted.

God bless you.

You're welcome.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Throughout God's Word, God's people struggled with a perceived "abandonment" by God. This includes Job, and David, and even Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, when He, upon the cross, cried out "My God my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?!" We ALL Struggle with this. Elijah was so depressed that he wanted to die.

It is no different for Mother Teresa.

Haven't you ever struggled with this?

Ok, let's revisit this one:

Teresa's statements are not a matter of mere abandonment. She did not say, "The Lord has left me, " or "The Lord has abandoned me." No. She clearly stated "There is not God in me." To my recollection, Job struggled with the reason behind his being afflicted, never having said anything about the Lord abandoning him. He whined that he knew of no reason to be afflicted, and asserted his innocence, to which the Lord responded by asserting His Sovereignty over all things and over all people.

David plead with the Lord to not remove His Spirit because of his grievous sins, and Jesus asked about being forsaken, which implies the Father turning away, averting His eyes from looking upon the One who took our sins upon Himself, He who had known no sin. What Father could ever look upon his only child being executed? What father would abandon his child in such a situation? Forsaken to fulfill what must be done to redeem mankind does not imply being empty of God, nor left behind. Teresa stated, "There is no God in me." Confusing that, or downplaying it with alleged comparisons that differ in numerous ways from her statement, it all fails to downplay the magnitude of her declaration. That is not license for any of us to stand up as her judge and claim, "Well, she said that, but what she really meant was this other...."

I'm pushing toward her statements as being a teaching tool for us all, not a matter of judging her eternal salvation, as some RJW's accuse. We can glean from one another some great encouragements for when we do feel that we have distanced ourselves from the Lord, for we know that God NEVER leaves ANY of His people. He declared that without qualification, therefore beyond any question. If God was not in her, it's not because He left her or anyone else. We are the ones who try to walk away from God. Jonah is an object lesson in the fact that nobody can successfully walk away from God.

Jr

 

[brinny]

Ok, let's revisit this one:

Teresa's statements are not a matter of mere abandonment. She did not say, "The Lord has left me, " or "The Lord has abandoned me." No. She clearly stated "There is not God in me." To my recollection, Job struggled with the reason behind his being afflicted, never having said anything about the Lord abandoning him. He whined that he knew of no reason to be afflicted, and asserted his innocence, to which the Lord responded by asserting His Sovereignty over all things and over all people.

David plead with the Lord to not remove His Spirit because of his grievous sins, and Jesus asked about being forsaken, which implies the Father turning away, averting His eyes from looking upon the One who took our sins upon Himself, He who had known no sin. What Father could ever look upon his only child being executed? What father would abandon his child in such a situation? Forsaken to fulfill what must be done to redeem mankind does not imply being empty of God, nor left behind. Teresa stated, "There is no God in me." Confusing that, or downplaying it with alleged comparisons that differ in numerous ways from her statement, it all fails to downplay the magnitude of her declaration. That is not license for any of us to stand up as her judge and claim, "Well, she said that, but what she really meant was this other...."

I'm pushing toward her statements as being a teaching tool for us all, not a matter of judging her eternal salvation, as some RJW's accuse. We can glean from one another some great encouragements for when we do feel that we have distanced ourselves from the Lord, for we know that God NEVER leaves ANY of His people. He declared that without qualification, therefore beyond any question. If God was not in her, it's not because He left her or anyone else. We are the ones who try to walk away from God. Jonah is an object lesson in the fact that nobody can successfully walk away from God.

Jr

Job NEVER "whined".

He cried out that he sought God and that it seemed he could not FIND Him. This was devastating to him. He expressed a desire to not to have been born. He surely did not, at that time, sense that God was "in him".

My question to you is:

Did Job "sin"?

We are the ones who try to walk away from God.

Job NEVER "walked away" from God.

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

[QUOTE="SwordmanJr,

Can you tell me what you are trying to prove here and why?

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

Ok, let's revisit this one:

Teresa's statements are not a matter of mere abandonment. She did not say, "The Lord has left me, " or "The Lord has abandoned me." No. She clearly stated "There is not God in me."

Sometimes words can be missed understood/misinterpreted/or even said improperly and cause confusion.

I would image that everyone has had someone in their life that we feel emotionally connected too and then something happens to decrease that emotional connection or it ends and a person is left with feelings that that person is no longer in them over time. That warm fuzzy feeling of knowing you're wanted/connected to them has gone.

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and maybe not and say that I would image that when Christ felt the abandonment of the Father the feeling of Him there and then not in those moments Christ may have felt like the Father disappeared. Maybe Mother Theresa was trying to express that she felt God disappeared.

I remember a story Mother Theresa once shared and was upset at God. She was given a donation of fresh fruits and vegetables and went to go pick them up. She had a wooden push cart. After she picked them up she was walking back and her cart hit a pothole and the cart fall over. She said to God, I can see why you have so many enemies if this is how you treated the people the care about you. Her being upset represented the fact that she was out there giving all she had physically to care for the poor (an old lady) and probably was quite tired without a break and when that happen she expressed her dislike of God not watching out for her while she was trying to serve Him. It didn't mean she didn't love God anymore. It was her human weakness that we all have that limits us to only do so much before we have done enough and get frustrated.

Mother Theresa was Albanian and as we know language is a funny thing in that what one people of a language will say may not be the same as another group of people from another language even if they are trying to express the same thing. It can come off different to us who understand another language.

I know God is the best judge for Mother Theresa's soul. She cared for many as a sinner and in doing so she cared for God because His image is in all that she served.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Job NEVER "whined".

That's a matter of perspective.

He cried out that he sought God and that it seemed he could not FIND Him. This was devastating to him. He expressed a desire to not to have been born. He surely did not, at that time, sense that God was "in him".

Well, I cannot accept that you know about Job what is not stated in the text, in that Job sensed that "....God was" -not- "'in him.'"

My question to you is:

Did Job "sin"?

Job NEVER "walked away" from God.

See Rom. 3:23. Also see Job 40:1-2 He was in deep over his head, for the Lord rebuked him for his whining and reproof against his Creator. That pretty much amounts to whining in my books since it never rise to the level of anything legitimate apart from....whining.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Donna Fletcher

In other words, you too have chosen to judge her as having mis-spoken. Hmm. Well, I am not such an authority over the words of others, especially those I have never met. Had she not meant what she said, she blew all of her ample opportunities to to issue a correction if your assumption were correct.

Jr

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

.

 

[brinny]

That's a matter of perspective.



Well, I cannot accept that you know about Job what is not stated in the text, in that Job sensed that "....God was" -not- "'in him.'"



See Rom. 3:23. Also see Job 40:1-2 He was in deep over his head, for the Lord rebuked him for his whining and reproof against his Creator. That pretty much amounts to whining in my books since it never rise to the level of anything legitimate apart from....whining.

Jr

Job never ever "whined".

Neither did he "walk away" from God.

God's own description of Job was in the very 1st verse of the book of Job.

This is the "key" to understanding the entire book of Job.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Job never ever "whined".

Ok. That's your take on it all, and that's fine. I think he whined about his afflictions in his latter speeches, which included him questioning God. Thus the reason the Lord laid into him with both feet (so to speak).

Neither did he "walk away" from God.

I never said he did.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

[QUOTE="SwordmanJr,

May God grant you peace.

Back at ya, and thank you, Marie. He has indeed done that.

Jr

 

[brinny]

Ok. That's your take on it all, and that's fine. I think he whined about his afflictions in his latter speeches, which included him questioning God. Thus the reason the Lord laid into him with both feet (so to speak).



I never said he did.

Jr

"Whining" is the equivalent of a "spoiled" child having a temper tantrum.

And thank you for not saying that Job walked away from God. I apologize if i misunderstood.

 

[SwordmanJr]

"Whining" is the equivalent of a "spoiled" child having a temper tantrum.

As a clarification of the definition for my use of that descriptor:

to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: (dictionary.com)

Being spoiled never even entered my mind.

Jr

 

[brinny]

As a clarification of the definition for my use of that descriptor:

to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: (dictionary.com)

Being spoiled never even entered my mind.

Jr

Was Jesus "whining" from the cross?

 

[SwordmanJr]

Was Jesus "whining" from the cross?

Fortunately, Job was/is not Jesus. Job too needed a savior just like all the rest of us.

Jr

 

[brinny]

Fortunately, Job was/is not Jesus. Job too needed a savior just like all the rest of us.

Jr

What has your response to my post got to do with the question i asked in my post?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Excerpts from her private writings and correspondence recorded in Come Be My Light

"Darkness is such that I really do not see – neither with my mind nor with my reason. – The place of God in my soul is blank. – There is no God in me. – When the pain of longing is so great – I just long & long for God – and then it is that I feel – He does not want me – He is not there…"

The REAL Jesus said:

[Mat 28:20 KJV] 20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

Folks, that was not a promise, it was a statement of fact that was/is more real than declaring that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That woman was declared a "saint" 19 years after her death, and the decision was made faster than for any other "sainted" dead person.

"Do not think that my spiritual life is strewn with roses – that is the flower which I hardly ever find on my way. Quite the contrary, I have more often as my companion ‘darkness’. And when the night becomes very thick – and it seems to me as if I must end up in hell – then I simply offer myself to Jesus. If He wants me to go there – I am ready – but only under the condition that it really makes him happy."

Jesus said many will say to Him:

[Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What jesus did she believe in. The Jesus we read about in the Bible would never send one of His true followers to Hell, so I'm left wondering what jesus this woman followed that he would be happier if she were in Hell?

It's pretty much granted that some will defend Teresa's dark system of belief as normal for someone who deals with the suffering she encountered daily. You know, that simply doesn't match up with the Jesus of the Bible. The power of God is so much greater than all the suffering in the world heaped up into one spot on this earth. Good works will never get anyone into Heaven, which is made clear in the word of God.

Some are bound to defend her, even to the extent of explaining her words off into some other meaning not at all similar to the very words she wrote. Some might even play on the "translation errors" defense of her words, but in the end, she can be seen to have given in to the enemy of her soul to be convinced that there is emptiness where only God can fill the void. That has every appearance of a self-indictment that no amount of smearing of benevolent salve can ever adequately cover over for the festering wound that it is. The flow of puss is too apparent to ignore and so easily explain away.

So, who believes they can effectively explain away her own words into a meaning what they do not say within the confines of the clear language they speak? Is it all allegorical? Is it merely symbolic what she said? Was it only human feelings, and therefore not her speaking to the spiritual depths of her genuine beliefs at the core of her soul? Are we now judges qualified to reinterpret her words, as if we have shoved Christ off His Throne, only to sit there ourselves, duly empowered to render the meaning of Teresa's words into something they don't clearly portray?

Thoughts?

Jr

I'm not Catholic but, I would sure never wish to say anything negative regarding a person that had such good works.

We all waiver in and out, what's important is I'm sure she will be greeting us in heaven.

It's a sin to talk negatively regarding other believers.
M-Bob