LDS Mormonism is Occultism

[Jane_Doe]

Indeed it was. It wasn't very rational though - if someone is accused of something it doesn't mean that the person is falsely accused.

The accusations in this thread are very false.

Where am I bearing false witness?

Post 17, it was claimed anyone called you a swine or dog.

In your post, you cite Matthew 7:6 (and you do so elsewhere, as do others) as the reason for not wanting to discuss the handshake that Dr. Steve created his post on and you repeat that reference in this thread. That verse says to not give that which is holy to the dogs and to not cast your pearls before swine.


What am I misunderstanding in your reference to that verse? I think I understand it correctly.

You appear to be thinking that someone citing Matthew 7:6 to discuss the sacredness of pearls is the same as saying “ArmenianJohn you are swine!”. No, that is not the case. WWA explained this twice.

How so? The OP points out the occultic nature of mormonism.

The OP states: “When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism……….. Christianity is not an occult religion..”


This is a demostratably false statement. Multiple examples of Christ commanding things to be not said, and Mother Mary doing thus have been given.

How is this offensive to you? .

Offensive posts include flames and repeated false statements/accusations.

You and others are instead choosing to deflect and dodge by focusing on me and my character (which, by the way, is against forum rules).

I have made no attack on your character or made any comment on it. People have discussed your OP and following posts.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Luke didn't have to interview any of the Apostles to get the story. It's not Luke's story. It's God's story and He gave it to Luke.

So are you under the impression that God spoke to Luke and he wrote it down word for word?

Luke himself was not an eyewitness in fact he was a converted Gentile. Now I believe he was inspired to write his Gospel and then to write his pretty much eyewitness account of the Acts of the Apostles. He's writing to the new converts that they may know the truth. There were a lot of heretic type writings going on and Luke set it all down truthfully for us.

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus/friend of God,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

He knew those who saw first hand and he got the truth from them. The Gospel of Mark starts with John the Baptist baptizing Jesus but Luke goes back to the beginning of the story. Either Mary was still alive or he interviewed Jesus' brother James, perhaps there were some shepherds still alive. However he got all of his information the Lord brought it to pass so we could have a truthful picture of what took place.

First, you added "tokens" to the Bible verse. "Tokens" are shibboleths and other secrets used by occultists like pagans, witches, masons, and yes, mormons. The Bible doesn't deal in "tokens". Please don't change God's Word to suit your religion's beliefs.

I was quoting Strong's Bible Concordance. The Greek word for signs is semeion and means, sign, token or mark. Jesus gave them signs, token and marks which they did not write down.

What bothered you about the pictures and tourists?

We treat even our normal chapels as a house of God and at least try to be reverent, one can not take a picture in the chapel during meetings nor of a baptism.

Hebrews 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

People walking around and taking pictures in a house of God while other people are worshiping seems rather ill-reverent, or is that normal for you?

If you go to Salt Lake and Temple Square you will not find one single gift shop, you can not buy a trinket produced by the Church. You can cross the street and go into an LDS Deseret Book Story and find trinkets there, however they are not made by the Church but by Church members trying to make a buck. I suppose the Church does get some royalties off of trademarks etc.

Christianity says all are "unworthy" and that that is why all are under God's Grace.

I really care more about what Jesus said than what the modern day Christian leaders say.

Jesus said he was looking or the "good and faithful servant" only they shall enter the kingdom of God.

He also taught
Matthew 10:38
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

I have taken up his cross and try to walk worthy of him where I stumble He lifts me up and points the way.

So the Bishop was going to give it to you even though you were unworthy but you made the decision to judge yourself unworthy and that's why you didn't get it?

Well he would have asked me, is there anything in your life which is a miss, anything you feel you need to repent of. I would have replied I'm feeling a great deal of anger to the point of hating someone. Someone tried to rape my 11 year old daughter I had a hard time working through the whole situation. He may have said, well spend some time praying in the Temple or he may have said, will wait a while until you work that through in your heart. I felt the Temple is a place of peace and I should not bring into it my anger so I chose myself to work it through. With time and the help of the Spirit I overcame that anger and began to pity the boy and his family.

So, not only does your religion judge people as worthy or unworthy but they don't even do it accurately all the time.

Hey people lie to their Bishops. I got an ex sister in-law who kept her temple recommend and all the while she was having an affair. She's the one that will have to stand before God one day. Maybe she's repented, I don't know. When we see each other I treat her nice and try to be as kind as possible, I will be judge for my sins and she will be judge for hers.

Of course, the true tragedy here is that people believe that some of them are "worthy" and some of them are "unworthy".

Jesus gave us several different parables about unworthy servants. There were people invited to the wedding who would not come, people without their wedding garments being put out of the feast. (Matt 22). There were servants who were given talents and either used them wisely or buried them, the wise were welcomed into the kingdom the slothful was cast out. There's the parable of the king dividing his sheep from the goats and then the Good Samaritan who was not considered part of the Jews. He was the good neighbor the one that would be welcomed into the kingdom.

Yes we are all sinners and unworthy, there is nothing we can do to make ourselves worthy to stand in the presence of God the Father. Jesus alone is the judge of who will enter and who will not. He alone will decide who is worthy of his grace, not you and not I. To stand up and say "I am saved" is to usurp his judgement. At the judgement day he will judge according to our fruits and not because we declared it ourselves.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The accusations in this thread are very false.

Post 17, it was claimed anyone called you a swine or dog.

No, there are no accusations made by me which are false. Several mormons, when asked why they didn't want to talk about the handshake test for angels, cited Matthew 7:6 (and you did in your post) as a reason to not want to discuss. When we look at that verse it clearly says "give not that which is holy to the dogs neither cast your pearls before swine". That is the answer we are being given, we are therefore being called dogs and swine.

If we are not dogs and/or swine, then what is the reason you don't want to talk about the handshake test of an angel? (You already quoted Matthew 7:6 but maybe you have another reason where you don't consider us swine or dogs?)

You appear to be thinking that someone citing Matthew 7:6 to discuss the sacredness of pearls is the same as saying “ArmenianJohn you are swine!”. No, that is not the case. WWA explained this twice.

No, that IS the case. When you give that verse as the reason for not wanting to share your knowledge or information with me and others then clearly you consider us to be the "dogs" and "swine" that verse is talking about. If we're not those things then you would be fine talking to us and you certainly wouldn't use this verse as a reason not to.

The OP states: “When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism……….. Christianity is not an occult religion..”

This is a demostratably false statement. Multiple examples of Christ commanding things to be not said, and Mother Mary doing thus have been given.

The examples given do not support that Christians are supposed to hide any spiritual information. They are a couple examples of isolated incidents between Jesus and his disciples or Mary about specific events and have nothing to do with what Christians are supposed to do. There are no verses telling Christians to hide information; if you have one then that would be a good example, but nobody has provided such a verse. Hiding information is, literally, by definition, "occultic".

Offensive posts include flames and repeated false statements/accusations.

I have made no attack on your character or made any comment on it. People have discussed your OP and following posts.

Yes, you have - you said, "The “debate” label is not an excuse for bearing false witness, slandering, mocking, and all manner of un-Christ-like behaviors. Such are expressly against forum guidelines" and "another false accusation" about the things I have said. You make the accusations but don't provide the proof, so those are false accusations.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

So are you under the impression that God spoke to Luke and he wrote it down word for word?

Luke himself was not an eyewitness in fact he was a converted Gentile. Now I believe he was inspired to write his Gospel and then to write his pretty much eyewitness account of the Acts of the Apostles. He's writing to the new converts that they may know the truth. There were a lot of heretic type writings going on and Luke set it all down truthfully for us.

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus/friend of God,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

He knew those who saw first hand and he got the truth from them. The Gospel of Mark starts with John the Baptist baptizing Jesus but Luke goes back to the beginning of the story. Either Mary was still alive or he interviewed Jesus' brother James, perhaps there were some shepherds still alive. However he got all of his information the Lord brought it to pass so we could have a truthful picture of what took place.

I don't know what your point is here - you seem to agree with me that Luke got his story from God and that he didn't need to be an eyewitness as you originally claimed.

I was quoting Strong's Bible Concordance. The Greek word for signs is semeion and means, sign, token or mark. Jesus gave them signs, token and marks which they did not write down.

OK, fair enough.

We treat even our normal chapels as a house of God and at least try to be reverent, one can not take a picture in the chapel during meetings nor of a baptism.

Hebrews 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

People walking around and taking pictures in a house of God while other people are worshiping seems rather ill-reverent, or is that normal for you?

I don't know what ill-reverent means, perhaps "irreverent" is what you meant? If so, no, I don't necessarily find it irreverent for people to take pictures. For baptisms I think it's great that they do - why would someone want to forbid that?

While Christians also serve God "acceptably with reverence and godly fear", we also understand His heart for people and that being heavy-handed with the guests that we're supposed to evangelize to is not worth it. Most of our own people have a reverence to not take pictures (and don't have a need to) but the ones who do usually mean well and don't know any better. How does it show Christ's love to be heavy-handed with them? Over some pictures? It's silly. Particularly during an occasion like a wedding or baptism.

If you go to Salt Lake and Temple Square you will not find one single gift shop, you can not buy a trinket produced by the Church. You can cross the street and go into an LDS Deseret Book Story and find trinkets there, however they are not made by the Church but by Church members trying to make a buck. I suppose the Church does get some royalties off of trademarks etc.

OOPS - found one... The LDS Church History museum has a gift shop to sell all their wares. In any case, the mormon church has store.lds.org to sell their souvenirs and wares. Do either or both of these also offend you? There's also the Mormon Handicraft Shop - how about that one?

I really care more about what Jesus said than what the modern day Christian leaders say.

Jesus said he was looking or the "good and faithful servant" only they shall enter the kingdom of God.

Where did he say that? He said that "whoever believes on me shall be saved". He didn't put any other qualifiers on it. A good and faithful servant will be welcomed by him as such and may receive rewards but that doesn't have to do with salvation.

He also taught
Matthew 10:38
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

I have taken up his cross and try to walk worthy of him where I stumble He lifts me up and points the way.

Yes, notice that the Cross is what He talks about and not a word about the Garden of Gethsemane - what does that tell you?

Well he would have asked me, is there anything in your life which is a miss, anything you feel you need to repent of. I would have replied I'm feeling a great deal of anger to the point of hating someone. Someone tried to rape my 11 year old daughter I had a hard time working through the whole situation. He may have said, well spend some time praying in the Temple or he may have said, will wait a while until you work that through in your heart. I felt the Temple is a place of peace and I should not bring into it my anger so I chose myself to work it through. With time and the help of the Spirit I overcame that anger and began to pity the boy and his family.

Oh, so then earlier when you said it wasn't that Bishop wouldn't give you one you really didn't KNOW that. You knew what he would ask and from there you figured he still might give you one, or maybe not, depending what you told him or how you told him, or how he felt about it.... I was under the impression based on what you originally said that it wasn't because the bishop "would not give it to" you. So, now, we understand from you that it might have been that he wouldn't have given it to you.

Hey people lie to their Bishops. I got an ex sister in-law who kept her temple recommend and all the while she was having an affair. She's the one that will have to stand before God one day. Maybe she's repented, I don't know. When we see each other I treat her nice and try to be as kind as possible, I will be judge for my sins and she will be judge for hers.

I wouldn't have thought that you'd lie, but you did lead me to believe that your bishop would have given it to you with no problem, and that turns out not to be the case.

Jesus gave us several different parables about unworthy servants. There were people invited to the wedding who would not come, people without their wedding garments being put out of the feast. (Matt 22). There were servants who were given talents and either used them wisely or buried them, the wise were welcomed into the kingdom the slothful was cast out. There's the parable of the king dividing his sheep from the goats and then the Good Samaritan who was not considered part of the Jews. He was the good neighbor the one that would be welcomed into the kingdom.

Using example of worthy and unworthy servants in parables is for teaching specific behavior. Christ teaches through His Word that all are unworthy in terms of the law and that His Grace is the only means for salvation. The problem with mormonism is that it continues to treat people as "worthy" and "unworthy" for various stages, levels, information, etc. within the religion. It is somewhat of a mystery religion in that it has mysteries which can only be discovered by earning higher degrees through temple rituals (much like masonry, which it is based on).

Yes we are all sinners and unworthy, there is nothing we can do to make ourselves worthy to stand in the presence of God the Father. Jesus alone is the judge of who will enter and who will not. He alone will decide who is worthy of his grace, not you and not I. To stand up and say "I am saved" is to usurp his judgement. At the judgement day he will judge according to our fruits and not because we declared it ourselves.

That's right! And when any man, like a mormon bishop, tells someone he or she is "not worthy" or their organization it means NOTHING to God! The mormon religion's view of "worthiness" of a person is different from God's. It is not a Christian view, it is a mystery religion view. So why do you continue to accept the mormon religion dictating to you whether you or others are "worthy" or "unworthy" (i.e. "profane")?

 

[withwonderingawe]

They have their lowest level members who have certain basic benefits. They then have a hierarchy which members must earn their way through levels to. .

I never thought of the Church in those terms, except for the Apostles and Prophet and some in the Quorum of the Seventy we have no hierarchy. There is no paid clergy everyone is volunteer. Down the street from me there is a brother who was first a Bishop and then he was called into the Stake Presidency. He was there for 10 years serving the people of the Stake. Then one Sunday the Area President and one of the Apostles came and he was released. The next week he had seven little Cub Scouts he was tending. ( maybe you think cub scouts are of the devil too)

The point is no one makes a living at this and callings come and callings go. We aren't back stabbing each other to trying be Relief Society President. We learn to support each other in those positions.

I'm not working my way up to some hidden knowledge others don't know. The first time I went to the Temple I was 20 years old, every time I've been back I learn the same thing over again. I don't have to keep going back to get to a higher and higher level. There are many members who in this life lived to far from a temple to ever go, they have just as much right to enter the Celestial Kingdom as I will.

Going to the Temple does not guarantee my position in the Celestial Kingdom. I could go day and night but not be worthy before God. What makes me worthy is first bowing my knee to the Savior and asking for his grace to cover my sin and then learning Christ like love. If I have not charity I am nothing!

What the Temple does do is make me think more about the covenants I have made to be a follower of Jesus.

 

[fatboys]

I don't know what your point is here - you seem to agree with me that Luke got his story from God and that he didn't need to be an eyewitness as you originally claimed.


OK, fair enough.


I don't know what ill-reverent means, perhaps "irreverent" is what you meant? If so, no, I don't necessarily find it irreverent for people to take pictures. For baptisms I think it's great that they do - why would someone want to forbid that?

While Christians also serve God "acceptably with reverence and godly fear", we also understand His heart for people and that being heavy-handed with the guests that we're supposed to evangelize to is not worth it. Most of our own people have a reverence to not take pictures (and don't have a need to) but the ones who do usually mean well and don't know any better. How does it show Christ's love to be heavy-handed with them? Over some pictures? It's silly. Particularly during an occasion like a wedding or baptism.


OOPS - found one... The LDS Church History museum has a gift shop to sell all their wares. In any case, the mormon church has store.lds.org to sell their souvenirs and wares. Do either or both of these also offend you? There's also the Mormon Handicraft Shop - how about that one?


Where did he say that? He said that "whoever believes on me shall be saved". He didn't put any other qualifiers on it. A good and faithful servant will be welcomed by him as such and may receive rewards but that doesn't have to do with salvation.


Yes, notice that the Cross is what He talks about and not a word about the Garden of Gethsemane - what does that tell you?


Oh, so then earlier when you said it wasn't that Bishop wouldn't give you one you really didn't KNOW that. You knew what he would ask and from there you figured he still might give you one, or maybe not, depending what you told him or how you told him, or how he felt about it.... I was under the impression based on what you originally said that it wasn't because the bishop "would not give it to" you. So, now, we understand from you that it might have been that he wouldn't have given it to you.


I wouldn't have thought that you'd lie, but you did lead me to believe that your bishop would have given it to you with no problem, and that turns out not to be the case.


Using example of worthy and unworthy servants in parables is for teaching specific behavior. Christ teaches through His Word that all are unworthy in terms of the law and that His Grace is the only means for salvation. The problem with mormonism is that it continues to treat people as "worthy" and "unworthy" for various stages, levels, information, etc. within the religion. It is somewhat of a mystery religion in that it has mysteries which can only be discovered by earning higher degrees through temple rituals (much like masonry, which it is based on).


That's right! And when any man, like a mormon bishop, tells someone he or she is "not worthy" or their organization it means NOTHING to God! The mormon religion's view of "worthiness" of a person is different from God's. It is not a Christian view, it is a mystery religion view. So why do you continue to accept the mormon religion dictating to you whether you or others are "worthy" or "unworthy" (i.e. "profane")?

You remind me of someone straining at a nat and swallows a camel

 

[withwonderingawe]

perhaps "irreverent" is what you meant?

No wonder my spell checker was having such a hard time

The LDS Church History museum has a gift shop

Well that's new, haven't been there. The history museum is across the street from Temple Square and I'm guess the store is part of Deseret Book store which the Church owns. The Museum is not a church, there is no one worshiping in there. The Mormon Handy Craft Store has a very long history, it was started in 1930s to help Mormon women supplement their incomes during the depression. There are blankets and baby items handcrafted and sold on consignment. Once again it's not a church building, no one is worshiping.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Interesting never heard of that one .. I do remember Solomon Spalding who wrote a novel that people who knew him said his story "Manuscript found" contained very similar story, names of places and distance between the waters being the same as the distance between two of the great lakes in NY , and references to indian mounds, wars, lost tribes of Israel, similar characters names and animals found in the Book of Mormon ..

Sidney Rigdon knew of the manuscript by Solomon being kept at Patterson and Lambdin publisers in Pittsburg .. Rigdon became close friends with Lambdins son . After Spalding died the widow of Spalding claim the story was stole from her home .. When Spalding died , Rigdon and Joseph Smith were already collaborating together .. Strange that Martin Harris was recording the Book of Mormon while Joseph dictated .. Martins wife opposed the whole thing and stole the first hundred of so pages which remain missing to this day .. Was Joseph destroying the pages as he dictated from them ? Is that why they're missing he couldn't reproduce them ? Very intriguing circumstances ..

Well that all makes a good story but Sidney didn't meet Joseph until after the Book of Mormon published.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Did you ever drive through a mormon town where they don't know you and they greet you with guns and tie you up? How many babies did they sacrifice? How many pioneers were killed like in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Joseph Smith carried a gun with him - he was a killing man. Jesus never did, nor did the disciples (except one time, 3 disciples did and it was for the purpose of getting Jesus arrested, because Jesus was peaceful and not violent). How about the shunning that mormons do when someone becomes an "Apostate"? Your wards are throwing children out on the streets because they don't want to be mormons.

That's quite a mouth full, never heard the one about sacrificing babies before?

Joseph Smith killed no one!

Shunning is not done in our Church either.

I think I've had enough of your misinformed hate speech.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Well that's new, haven't been there. The history museum is across the street from Temple Square and I'm guess the store is part of Deseret Book store which the Church owns. The Museum is not a church, there is no one worshiping in there. The Mormon Handy Craft Store has a very long history, it was started in 1930s to help Mormon women supplement their incomes during the depression. There are blankets and baby items handcrafted and sold on consignment. Once again it's not a church building, no one is worshiping.

So what's your point in all of this? It's OK for mormonism but not Christianity to sell things?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

That's quite a mouth full, never heard the one about sacrificing babies before?

Joseph Smith killed no one!

Shunning is not done in our Church either.

I think I've had enough of your misinformed hate speech.

These are all stories I've heard. I don't necessarily believe them, but my point is that if Ironhold can pass along stories he's heard of Christian churches locking mormons in and torturing them then shouldn't my stories that I've heard be taken as seriously? What do you think, have you heard about mormons being locked into Christian churches and tortured? You didn't seem to mind those stories. Why is that?

I have had enough of your misinformed hate speech, also.

 

[Ironhold]

You're wrong. What is hidden in any occultic religion may be exposed and therefore no longer secret, but the fact remains that the occultists still do their best to hide that knowledge from people.

How is it "hidden" if it's presumed that just about everyone in the organization is going to learn eventually?

And I'm glad you're admitting that you consider non-mormons "swine" whom you can't share your secrets with.

That was a Bible reference...

magick rituals

Did you really just go there?

What about all the mormon temples that do the same?

Are you confusing the chapels and temples?

Did you ever drive through a mormon town where they don't know you and they greet you with guns and tie you up?

Where are you getting this from?

How many babies did they sacrifice?

Please tell me that someone's fed you some very bad information.

How many pioneers were killed like in the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

You're serious, aren't you?

A federal posting to Utah carried little pay or prestige, and so by 1858 the government was scraping the bottom of the barrel. The end result is that a series of increasingly unfit federal appointees were dispatched to the territory. One particularly unpopular judge - a judge known for having his secretary / mistress sit on his lap while he was holding court - ended up getting himself run out of the territory. In response, the guy wrote a false report claiming that the territory was in rebellion. Washington sent in the Army without bothering to even let anyone know what was happening, and so the church - given what had happened in Missouri, Illinois, and Arkansas - feared the worst. This caused a panic which led to outsiders being regarded as potential threats, so when a number of Native Americans in Iron County became sick the local militia blamed a wagon train that became stranded in the region. Brigham Young ordered people to stand down, but by the time the order arrived the militia and the Native Americans had already tag-teamed everyone. Young was willing to assist with the first official investigation in 1859, but the government itself backed off, likely due to fears of political backlash.

Joseph Smith carried a gun with him - he was a killing man.

This is false.

The only time it has even been argued he killed someone was when the mob came for him at Carthage, and even then he didn't fire until after Hyrum was dead. In that sense, there's a perfect case for self-defense, especially since there were two other people with him at the time.

And I say "argued" as there are conflicting accounts about whether or not some of the mob members were killed or merely wounded.

How about the shunning that mormons do when someone becomes an "Apostate"?

The church actually tells people not to.

Nobody will ask you who you are or what religion you are.

It must be nice living where you are, because down here things don't work that way.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I'm not a Mormon, but I've looked into these threads that keep popping up and as far as I can tell, the Mormons are trouncing everyone making these threads. I'd think if anyone who was starting these threads is actually anti-Mormon, it would be best for them just to stop; because all these threads are doing is making the anti-Mormons look like really bitter strife-causing people carelessly attacking something they know nothing about, and having to be corrected time and again. In other words, it looks like the wise thing to do is just leave them alone.

 

[Ironhold]

I'm not a Mormon, but I've looked into these threads that keep popping up and as far as I can tell, the Mormons are trouncing everyone making these threads. I'd think if anyone who was starting these threads is actually anti-Mormon, it would be best for them just to stop; because all these threads are doing is making the anti-Mormons look like really bitter strife-causing people carelessly attacking something they know nothing about, and having to be corrected time and again. In other words, it looks like the wise thing to do is just leave them alone.

Sadly, this has been the way of things for generations.

Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect

Even mainline Christian writers have been trying to say what you're saying, but to no avail. That paper above? 1997. Not much has changed in the 20 years since.

 

[fatboys]

So what's your point in all of this? It's OK for mormonism but not Christianity to sell things?

What are you talking about? What difference does it make

 

[stephen583]

Basically, as long as you're in good standing with the church and a key local leader isn't being senseless about things, then you're going to get the recommend saying that you can enter.

I live in Salt Lake City, know many Mormons and their Church very well. No one would ever accuse me of being a regular churchgoer though, not because I'm not a Christian, but because I simply have no interest in organized religion.

I'm an "anti-clerical" Christian. I just want everyone to know where I'm coming from. From a sectarian viewpoint, I have no dog in this fight. So as an impartial comentator, let me give you the straight skinny on Mormons

Most of what Ironhold said, simply isn't true. I was just standing outside in front the Mormon Temple on a public sidewalk one day and was merely discussing "general" theology with a friend (It wasn't even about Mormons), and was accosted by two Mormon "apostles" who came out of the temple doors in suits and informed me if I didn't move on the police would be called. We had only been there maybe ten minutes and were only talking between ourselves, but had apparently been overheard by someone and reported.

Probably 70% of the police force in Salt Lake are Mormons. So it's accurate to say the Mormon Church has it's own police force (temple guards) in SLC. We walked on immediately, because we understood they weren't just kidding around. Had we refused, we would have been arrested.

The "recommend" church status can not be conferred by just any Mormon, and it certainly can not be conferred on any non-Mormon person (Christian, or otherwise). Only the Bishop, or an apostle of the church authorized by the Bishop can confer the "recommend" status, and then only to a particularly "devout" adherent to Mormon theology. I have never heard of the recommend" status being conferred on any non-Mormon. NEVER.

As for their church organization in general, I would compare it most closely to the Mafia, or the Gulan movement in Turkey. They have their hands in almost every aspect of life in SLC, and have infiltrated every state and federal run institution, as well as dominating the local press media with their xenophobic and archaic slave based views towards women as equals.

The Salvation Army Food Bank, Public Housing, Local Businesses, Workfair Food Stamp Office and the City Police all answer to the Mormon Church.

If you doubt all this is true, I suggest you Google the following information. "Salt Lake, The Least Free City In America" and give it a read.

 

[fatboys]

I live in Salt Lake City, know many Mormons and their Church very well. No one would ever accuse me of being a regular churchgoer though, not because I'm not a Christian, but because I simply have no interest in organized religion.

I'm an "anti-clerical" Christian. I just want everyone to know where I'm coming from. From a sectarian viewpoint, I have no dog in this fight. So as an impartial comentator, let me give you the straight skinny on Mormons

Most of what Ironhold said, simply isn't true. I was just standing outside in front the Mormon Temple on a public sidewalk one day and was merely discussing "general" theology with a friend (It wasn't even about Mormons), and was accosted by two Mormon "apostles" who came out of the temple doors in suits and informed me if I didn't move on the police would be called. We had only been there maybe ten minutes and were only talking between ourselves, but had apparently been overheard by someone and reported.

Probably 70% of the police force in Salt Lake are Mormons. So it's accurate to say the Mormon Church has it's own police force (temple guards) in SLC. We walked on immediately, because we understood they weren't just kidding around. Had we refused, we would have been arrested.

The "recommend" church status can not be conferred by just any Mormon, and it certainly can not be conferred on any non-Mormon person (Christian, or otherwise). Only the Bishop, or an apostle of the church authorized by the Bishop can confer the "recommend" status, and then only to a particularly "devout" adherent to Mormon theology. I have never heard of the recommend" status being conferred on any non-Mormon. NEVER.

As for their church organization in general, I would compare it most closely to the Mafia, or the Gulan movement in Turkey. They have their hands in almost every aspect of life in SLC, and have infiltrated every state and federal run institution, as well as dominating the local press media with their xenophobic and archaic slave based views towards women as equals.

The Salvation Army Food Bank, Public Housing, Local Businesses, Workfair Food Stamp Office and the City Police all answer to the Mormon Church.

If you doubt all this is true, I suggest you Google the following information. "Salt Lake, The Least Free City In America" and give it a read.

Wow. Two Mormon apostles came out from the temple and told you to move on? Lololololololololol

 

[Rescued One]

Yes we are all sinners and unworthy, there is nothing we can do to make ourselves worthy to stand in the presence of God the Father. Jesus alone is the judge of who will enter and who will not. He alone will decide who is worthy of his grace, not you and not I. To stand up and say "I am saved" is to usurp his judgement. At the judgement day he will judge according to our fruits and not because we declared it ourselves.

A Mormon is to make himself worthy through obedience:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.


19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be
written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

...27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

• See that ye do all things in worthiness:Morm. 9:29;
• They were not baptized save they were worthy:Moro. 6:1;
• The slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand:D&C 107:100;
• He that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom:D&C 136:31;
• The priesthood was extended to all worthy male members
• D&C OD—2;
• Worthy, Worthiness

...
Doctrine and Covenants, section 121:

“The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and … the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
“That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man” (D&C 121:36–37).
Personal Worthiness to Exercise the Priesthood - Gordon B. Hinckley

Some Mormons are worthy of a temple recommend; others aren't. Mormons are told to obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel in order to have eternal life.

"It is my hope and prayer that we will learn individually and collectively the importance of the process of becoming worthy. We are entitled to the help of others not only in assessing our worthiness but also in making the classification of “worthy” available to each of us. As we measure our worthiness, let us no longer put limitations upon ourselves. Rather, let us use those strengths and powers that are available to make us worthy to gain great heights in personal development. Thus we will reap the joy that comes to those who desire to improve and move forward with determination and effectiveness as they practice self-discipline and refuse to judge themselves as unworthy."
Marvin J. Ashton, On Being Worthy, General Conference, April 1989
On Being Worthy - Marvin J. Ashton

 

[Jane_Doe]

When we look at that verse it clearly says "give not that which is holy to the dogs neither cast your pearls before swine". That is the answer we are being given, we are therefore being called dogs and swine.

If we are not dogs and/or swine, then what is the reason you don't want to talk about the handshake test of an angel? (You already quoted Matthew 7:6 but maybe you have another reason where you don't consider us swine or dogs?)

You understand falsely. Matthew 7:6 is NOT being referenced talking about *you*. It is about the things of God (the pearls). These things are sacred and we strive to keep them that way. It is about reverence to GOD, not about personally insulting you.

The examples given do not support that Christians are supposed to hide any spiritual information.

Christ Himself literally commands in multiple times!

They are a couple examples of isolated incidents between Jesus and his disciples or Mary about specific events and have nothing to do with what Christians are supposed to do.

Umm.. pardom me, but following Christ's commands, His example, and the example of people such as Mother Mary is 100% part of being a Christian.

Hiding information is, literally, by definition, "occultic".

Then, by your definition, Christ, the Virgin Mary, and many great people in scripture are "occultic". I respectfully disagree with this outrageous thesis of yours.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm not a Mormon, but I've looked into these threads that keep popping up and as far as I can tell, the Mormons are trouncing everyone making these threads. I'd think if anyone who was starting these threads is actually anti-Mormon, it would be best for them just to stop; because all these threads are doing is making the anti-Mormons look like really bitter strife-causing people carelessly attacking something they know nothing about, and having to be corrected time and again. In other words, it looks like the wise thing to do is just leave them alone.

Amen to that!