LDS Mormonism is Occultism

[ArmenianJohn]

I posted this as part of a response in another thread but am creating a thread about Mormonism being the Occult so as not to derail that other thread.

When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism.

Occultism is the hallmark of pagan and "mystery" religions. Mormonism fits into this category because they have the belief (and any mormon will readily admit this) that certain knowledge is not to be shared but rather to be hidden. This is similar to the pagan religions like masonry and witchcraft religions; the belief is that certain spiritual knowledge must be hidden from people who are "profane", which means they are not worthy to know that knowledge. Interestingly, that is exactly what mormons will say, that one must be "worthy" (i.e. not profane) to have certain spiritual knowledge revealed to them.

Christianity is not an occult religion. Christianity is an open religion, open to absolutely all people. Every Christian Church and Cathedral is open to all - nobody checks who you are when you enter. You can just go into any of them. All Christian rituals and sacraments are done openly for all to come and witness. Baptism, Marriage, Communion, Confirmation, etc. etc. - all done in the open. The message of the Bible - the Gospel - is the opposite of hiding things, it is to promote and evangelize all things of God.

You can come to NY City, a few blocks from where I work, go into St. Patrick's Cathedral any day, walk all around to all the shrines, walk behind the altar, into the chapels, etc. They have mass every day and you can see it. They do baptisms and other sacraments and tourists mill about as they do it. All is open. All is there for people to be able to see so that they can learn about God and the Gospel. We want people to come to our churches for whatever reason because it all points to God. We believe ALL people are worthy to hear the Gospel and all spiritual knowledge from God's Word because it all supports the Gospel.

Contrast Christian Churches like St. Patrick's to the Salt Lake City Temple - if I go visit Salt Lake City, I can see it from the outside but I am shut out and not allowed in. I am considered by the mormon religion to be profane, not worthy. They consider some 80-90% of their own members to be profane. They exclude their own members and all people from all other religions from their weddings, baptisms, etc. You won't see that at a Christian ritual. At a Christian wedding, guests can be other denominations, other religions like mormon, hindu, buddhist, muslim, jewish, etc. Nothing is hidden by Christians.

This is another stark difference between mormonism and Christianity.

 

[4x4toy]

From what I've read Joseph Smith was a witch who performed rituals and even claimed to use a seer stone claiming he could locate buried treasure of your property , for a price of course .. He carried a "majik" Jupiter Talisman just about his whole life and was in his pocket when he was killed in a jail escape attempt, during a shoot out with guards ..

 

[ArmenianJohn]

From what I've read Joseph Smith was a witch who performed rituals and even claimed to use a seer stone claiming he could locate buried treasure of your property , for a price of course .. He carried a "majik" Jupiter Talisman just about his whole life and was in his pocket when he was killed in a jail escape attempt, during a shoot out with guards ..

I think Joseph Smith was a form of witch although he may not have used that label for himself. I think masons are also witches but they don't use that label on themselves either (and Joseph was a mason). But yes, he did practice "majik" and carried a Jupiter talisman. He did use various folk magic methods to find buried treasure. He did use a seer stone for his exploits, including the Book of Mormon.

It is all clear in the religion he created. Occultism is part of witchcraft, paganism, masonry, and many other false religions. In masonry, knowledge is provided in degrees. Same in witchcraft. People must learn and earn their way to being considered "worthy" for the next level of knowledge which otherwise remains hidden from them. Hiding and blocking knowledge is what gives power to the people at the top of the pyramid in such religions. When you view mormonism, it is no different. They have their lowest level members who have certain basic benefits. They then have a hierarchy which members must earn their way through levels to. Priesthoods, handshakes, tokens, passwords, all secret and given only to those who prove themselves "worthy". Their temples are secret and they block all outsiders, including their own lowest levels of members.

It is the opposite of Christianity. In Christianity, everything is open, everyone is invited to enter and learn and hear the gospel. Nothing is hidden. No people are considered "unworthy".

 

[drstevej]

Google Liahona

 

[4x4toy]

Google Liahona

Interesting never heard of that one .. I do remember Solomon Spalding who wrote a novel that people who knew him said his story "Manuscript found" contained very similar story, names of places and distance between the waters being the same as the distance between two of the great lakes in NY , and references to indian mounds, wars, lost tribes of Israel, similar characters names and animals found in the Book of Mormon ..

Sidney Rigdon knew of the manuscript by Solomon being kept at Patterson and Lambdin publisers in Pittsburg .. Rigdon became close friends with Lambdins son . After Spalding died the widow of Spalding claim the story was stole from her home .. When Spalding died , Rigdon and Joseph Smith were already collaborating together .. Strange that Martin Harris was recording the Book of Mormon while Joseph dictated .. Martins wife opposed the whole thing and stole the first hundred of so pages which remain missing to this day .. Was Joseph destroying the pages as he dictated from them ? Is that why they're missing he couldn't reproduce them ? Very intriguing circumstances ..

 

[Ironhold]

Occultism is the hallmark of pagan and "mystery" religions. Mormonism fits into this category because they have the belief (and any mormon will readily admit this) that certain knowledge is not to be shared but rather to be hidden.

Much of what people keep claiming is "hidden" isn't.

The rest isn't "hidden" so much as it is "making sure you're not teaching calculus to kindergartners" or "casting pearls before swine".

Christianity is not an occult religion. Christianity is an open religion, open to absolutely all people. Every Christian Church and Cathedral is open to all - nobody checks who you are when you enter.

A person can enter any LDS chapel they wish to whenever the building's open for regular services. (You might get funny looks if you're walking in off the street when it's mostly minors in the building.)

You can just go into any of them.

...Provided that you've got good track shoes on and a pry bar hidden inside your church bag for when they lock the door behind you.

No, I'm not kidding. Ask around enough LDS congregations and you'll eventually hear stories of "Good Christians" - be it individual ministers or entire congregations - whose modus operandi was to invite "cultists" and "the unsaved" inside, then lock the door and otherwise bar escape until such time as the individuals were "saved" or they had no power left to continue barring them.

And even if the door doesn't get locked, the poor person is sure to find themselves the subject of the day's sermon, often by name, with the intention of having the entire congregation mob them all at once.

How is being deceptive about how open that door is any better than what you accuse us of doing?

Contrast Christian Churches like St. Patrick's to the Salt Lake City Temple - if I go visit Salt Lake City, I can see it from the outside but I am shut out and not allowed in. I am considered by the mormon religion to be profane, not worthy.

...Yet you can still go in any chapel in the city, stop by the visitor's center in Temple Square, and if you've taken the guided tour go inside the old tabernacle. Nothing's stopping you.

They consider some 80-90% of their own members to be profane.

[citation needed]

Basically, as long as you're in good standing with the church and a key local leader isn't being senseless about things, then you're going to get the recommend saying that you can enter. It's more like the final exam in a boring 101 class, but critics of the church keep painting the process like it's Omaha Beach.

 

[4x4toy]

Mark Hoffman kept the Mormon hierarchy busy buying up his counterfit Mormon documents before he blowed himself up with a homade bomb . His White Salamander letters were ridiculous but apparently convincing . I woul however trust a Mormon team to go in and inspect all the documents stored away from the public , Same as the Vatican secret documents ..

 

[withwonderingawe]

I posted this as part of a response in another thread but am creating a thread about Mormonism being the Occult so as not to derail that other thread.

Thank you, ya don't know how many times I wished I could pull a topic out of a thread and start another.

When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism.

Matt 17
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


I can imagine when they did tell their story the oppositions saying; “yeah right, you’re just saying that so you can grab the church for yourselves.”


Luke 8
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

I have assume that Luke interviewed some of the Apostles who were there many years later to get the story.

John 20
30 ¶And many other signs/tokens truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Why?

*Matt 7:6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(Not that you personally are swine)

I think it’s about mocking God and people asking for a sign; you claim such and such happened now show us.

At the pool of Bethesda Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath but instead of praising Jesus for the healing they go to slay him for healing on the Sabbath, go figure.

There is something about worldly men which makes them afraid of the sacred and of miracles, their reaction is different than one would expect.


*19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

I think there are some experiences which are meant for us personally and not to give to the world.

You can come to NY City, a few blocks from where I work, go into St. Patrick's Cathedral any day, walk all around to all the shrines, walk behind the altar, into the chapels, etc.

I've been there and walked through the building, I had several different reactions. First I felt I was intruding upon these people as they were saying their prayers, people were talking and taking pictures, it just felt odd. Later I thought;

Matt 6
5 ¶And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

It bothered me a lot and then there was the souvenir shop right there in the middle of what was suppose to be sacred. I bought a little pin, I got a collection of them, but it again it was an odd feeling.

if I go visit Salt Lake City, I can see it from the outside but I am shut out and not allowed in.

You can come in, all you have to do is get baptized and then be a good and faithful servant.

I can't partake of the Catholic communion unless I comply to their standards, I doubt the Lutherans would let me either.

I am considered by the mormon religion to be profane, not worthy. They consider some 80-90% of their own members to be profane. They exclude their own members and all people from all other religions from their weddings, baptisms, etc.

Profane?

Now you are making things up. The Lord wants you to come unto him, his arms are always outstretched.

And where did you get that 80-90%? I guess there is a 50% activity rate, so half don't even come. Add in the children and maybe .... I don't know, people move in and out of worthiness during their life time.

I've had a period where I did not have a Temple recommend, not because the Bishop would not give it to me but because I felt I needed to do some repenting. It was nothing serious I just held some anger in my heart for someone and I knew it wasn't right to go to the Temple with those feelings. You have to understand that the faithful member makes up his own mind to go to the temple or not to go.

And anyone can come to a baptism.

 

[withwonderingawe]

carried a Jupiter talisman

No he didn't. There is a professor at BYU who wrote a whole paper on it and then someone pointed out that the talisman was not on the list of items found in his pocket which the coroner had made when he died. The poor guy had to withdraw the paper.

What happened is that Emma remarried after Joseph died, her husband had a son who never met Joseph. About 50 years after everyone else was dead he started selling off property claiming it belong to Joseph Smith, the Talisman was part of that. A Mormon souvenir hunter bought it along with a phony affidavit saying it was in his pocket and he carried it all the time.

Joseph never mentioned it, Emma never mentioned it, Oliver never mentioned it, neither Martin Harris or John Whitmer ever mentioned. In fact no one ever mentioned a Jupiter talisman not even once.

But so what if he had, lots of people carry a rabbit's foot does that make them part of some Occult. My Chinese astrology sign is the dragon and I knock on wood from time to time am I now some sort of evil devil? If you believe that then you lead a very sad life.

I read through one book which claimed Joseph's family was part of the occult because they were into astrology, they read the Farmer's Almanac.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Much of what people keep claiming is "hidden" isn't.

The rest isn't "hidden" so much as it is "making sure you're not teaching calculus to kindergartners" or "casting pearls before swine".

You're wrong. What is hidden in any occultic religion may be exposed and therefore no longer secret, but the fact remains that the occultists still do their best to hide that knowledge from people.

And I'm glad you're admitting that you consider non-mormons "swine" whom you can't share your secrets with. Several mormons on this forum have already admitted that this is main reason for hiding their spiritual knowledge and that they consider non-mormons "swine".

A person can enter any LDS chapel they wish to whenever the building's open for regular services. (You might get funny looks if you're walking in off the street when it's mostly minors in the building.)

But a person can't just walk into a Temple and walk around and watch all the magick rituals performed there. In fact, not even any mormon can do that. In fact, mormons will tell a mormon mom that even she can't attend her child's Temple wedding if she's not "worthy" to enter the Temple. It's part of the elitism of the occult religion of mormonism and this kind of exclusivism is used by occult religions to try to control their members. It makes them want to get the special secrets and "levels" and secret handshakes and tokens.

...Provided that you've got good track shoes on and a pry bar hidden inside your church bag for when they lock the door behind you.

No, I'm not kidding. Ask around enough LDS congregations and you'll eventually hear stories of "Good Christians" - be it individual ministers or entire congregations - whose modus operandi was to invite "cultists" and "the unsaved" inside, then lock the door and otherwise bar escape until such time as the individuals were "saved" or they had no power left to continue barring them.

And even if the door doesn't get locked, the poor person is sure to find themselves the subject of the day's sermon, often by name, with the intention of having the entire congregation mob them all at once.

How is being deceptive about how open that door is any better than what you accuse us of doing?

What about all the mormon temples that do the same? Did you ever drive through a mormon town where they don't know you and they greet you with guns and tie you up? How many babies did they sacrifice? How many pioneers were killed like in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Joseph Smith carried a gun with him - he was a killing man. Jesus never did, nor did the disciples (except one time, 3 disciples did and it was for the purpose of getting Jesus arrested, because Jesus was peaceful and not violent). How about the shunning that mormons do when someone becomes an "Apostate"? Your wards are throwing children out on the streets because they don't want to be mormons.

...Yet you can still go in any chapel in the city, stop by the visitor's center in Temple Square, and if you've taken the guided tour go inside the old tabernacle. Nothing's stopping you.

Oh yes, mormons allow the "unworthy" some access, that I know - but your religion blocks off the higher levels of knowledge and the access to their special, fanciest buildings. A mormon parent is FORBIDDEN to attend his or her own child's temple wedding UNLESS the mormon church gives him or her a card that says he or she is "worthy" to be in the higher degrees of the occultic religion. For the unworthy, they can go to the Visitor's Center but they are NOT ALLOWED further, except maybe if they make an appointment and have a guide to watch them and show them only what they want to show.

Contrast that to a big, fancy Cathedral where you or anyone can just walk in and watch whatever's going on, be it a baptism, wedding, confirmation, ordination, mass, eucharist, WHATEVER. You can just go in. No appointment necessary. Nobody will ask you who you are or what religion you are. Nothing is hidden. No knowledge is hidden, no sacraments or rituals are hidden, no buildings that are available to Christians are off limits to non-Christians. Because Christianity is NOT occultic, but mormonism is.

Basically, as long as you're in good standing with the church and a key local leader isn't being senseless about things, then you're going to get the recommend saying that you can enter. It's more like the final exam in a boring 101 class, but critics of the church keep painting the process like it's Omaha Beach.

Thanks for admitting that your religion IS occultic and DOES require a test to be passed and that an official permission or membership card must be issued. As you are saying, the mormon religion requires a person to be deemed "worthy" in order to enter into higher "degrees" (like masonry or witchcraft) of the religion. In those higher "degrees" are rituals, information, etc. that the mormon religion does not want to share with just anyone because those who are not "worthy" are considered "swine".

Christianity is for the "swine". The Gospel is for the lowest of the low. The Christian Gospel is for all people and the Christian God extends His Grace in FULL to ALL who believe. There are no further tests, there is no further judgment, there are no secret clubs with private memberships required. There are no secret handshakes, majick rituals, secret passwords and shibboleths, secret names, or any of the other silliness that occultic religions require.

That is a huge difference between Christianity and the occult/mormonism.

 

[fatboys]

You're wrong. What is hidden in any occultic religion may be exposed and therefore no longer secret, but the fact remains that the occultists still do their best to hide that knowledge from people.

And I'm glad you're admitting that you consider non-mormons "swine" whom you can't share your secrets with. Several mormons on this forum have already admitted that this is main reason for hiding their spiritual knowledge and that they consider non-mormons "swine".


But a person can't just walk into a Temple and walk around and watch all the magick rituals performed there. In fact, not even any mormon can do that. In fact, mormons will tell a mormon mom that even she can't attend her child's Temple wedding if she's not "worthy" to enter the Temple. It's part of the elitism of the occult religion of mormonism and this kind of exclusivism is used by occult religions to try to control their members. It makes them want to get the special secrets and "levels" and secret handshakes and tokens.


What about all the mormon temples that do the same? Did you ever drive through a mormon town where they don't know you and they greet you with guns and tie you up? How many babies did they sacrifice? How many pioneers were killed like in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Joseph Smith carried a gun with him - he was a killing man. Jesus never did, nor did the disciples (except one time, 3 disciples did and it was for the purpose of getting Jesus arrested, because Jesus was peaceful and not violent). How about the shunning that mormons do when someone becomes an "Apostate"? Your wards are throwing children out on the streets because they don't want to be mormons.


Oh yes, mormons allow the "unworthy" some access, that I know - but your religion blocks off the higher levels of knowledge and the access to their special, fanciest buildings. A mormon parent is FORBIDDEN to attend his or her own child's temple wedding UNLESS the mormon church gives him or her a card that says he or she is "worthy" to be in the higher degrees of the occultic religion. For the unworthy, they can go to the Visitor's Center but they are NOT ALLOWED further, except maybe if they make an appointment and have a guide to watch them and show them only what they want to show.

Contrast that to a big, fancy Cathedral where you or anyone can just walk in and watch whatever's going on, be it a baptism, wedding, confirmation, ordination, mass, eucharist, WHATEVER. You can just go in. No appointment necessary. Nobody will ask you who you are or what religion you are. Nothing is hidden. No knowledge is hidden, no sacraments or rituals are hidden, no buildings that are available to Christians are off limits to non-Christians. Because Christianity is NOT occultic, but mormonism is.


Thanks for admitting that your religion IS occultic and DOES require a test to be passed and that an official permission or membership card must be issued. As you are saying, the mormon religion requires a person to be deemed "worthy" in order to enter into higher "degrees" (like masonry or witchcraft) of the religion. In those higher "degrees" are rituals, information, etc. that the mormon religion does not want to share with just anyone because those who are not "worthy" are considered "swine".

Christianity is for the "swine". The Gospel is for the lowest of the low. The Christian Gospel is for all people and the Christian God extends His Grace in FULL to ALL who believe. There are no further tests, there is no further judgment, there are no secret clubs with private memberships required. There are no secret handshakes, majick rituals, secret passwords and shibboleths, secret names, or any of the other silliness that occultic religions require.

That is a huge difference between Christianity and the occult/mormonism.

Your hate towards Mormons is so apparent that it is showing the darkness that is cantering your soul. You consider us enemies. You are suppose to love your enemies. No don't sit there and say you love us. Your words show no love or compassion. Your words show that it is okay to lie for Jesus because many of your statements are pure fabrication and lies. When I say lie I am not saying that you don't know better as some people post here because they believe their source is reliable. You know better.

 

[fatboys]

You're wrong. What is hidden in any occultic religion may be exposed and therefore no longer secret, but the fact remains that the occultists still do their best to hide that knowledge from people.

And I'm glad you're admitting that you consider non-mormons "swine" whom you can't share your secrets with. Several mormons on this forum have already admitted that this is main reason for hiding their spiritual knowledge and that they consider non-mormons "swine".


But a person can't just walk into a Temple and walk around and watch all the magick rituals performed there. In fact, not even any mormon can do that. In fact, mormons will tell a mormon mom that even she can't attend her child's Temple wedding if she's not "worthy" to enter the Temple. It's part of the elitism of the occult religion of mormonism and this kind of exclusivism is used by occult religions to try to control their members. It makes them want to get the special secrets and "levels" and secret handshakes and tokens.


What about all the mormon temples that do the same? Did you ever drive through a mormon town where they don't know you and they greet you with guns and tie you up? How many babies did they sacrifice? How many pioneers were killed like in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Joseph Smith carried a gun with him - he was a killing man. Jesus never did, nor did the disciples (except one time, 3 disciples did and it was for the purpose of getting Jesus arrested, because Jesus was peaceful and not violent). How about the shunning that mormons do when someone becomes an "Apostate"? Your wards are throwing children out on the streets because they don't want to be mormons.


Oh yes, mormons allow the "unworthy" some access, that I know - but your religion blocks off the higher levels of knowledge and the access to their special, fanciest buildings. A mormon parent is FORBIDDEN to attend his or her own child's temple wedding UNLESS the mormon church gives him or her a card that says he or she is "worthy" to be in the higher degrees of the occultic religion. For the unworthy, they can go to the Visitor's Center but they are NOT ALLOWED further, except maybe if they make an appointment and have a guide to watch them and show them only what they want to show.

Contrast that to a big, fancy Cathedral where you or anyone can just walk in and watch whatever's going on, be it a baptism, wedding, confirmation, ordination, mass, eucharist, WHATEVER. You can just go in. No appointment necessary. Nobody will ask you who you are or what religion you are. Nothing is hidden. No knowledge is hidden, no sacraments or rituals are hidden, no buildings that are available to Christians are off limits to non-Christians. Because Christianity is NOT occultic, but mormonism is.


Thanks for admitting that your religion IS occultic and DOES require a test to be passed and that an official permission or membership card must be issued. As you are saying, the mormon religion requires a person to be deemed "worthy" in order to enter into higher "degrees" (like masonry or witchcraft) of the religion. In those higher "degrees" are rituals, information, etc. that the mormon religion does not want to share with just anyone because those who are not "worthy" are considered "swine".

Christianity is for the "swine". The Gospel is for the lowest of the low. The Christian Gospel is for all people and the Christian God extends His Grace in FULL to ALL who believe. There are no further tests, there is no further judgment, there are no secret clubs with private memberships required. There are no secret handshakes, majick rituals, secret passwords and shibboleths, secret names, or any of the other silliness that occultic religions require.

That is a huge difference between Christianity and the occult/mormonism.

Your hate towards Mormons is so apparent that it is showing the darkness that is cantering your soul. You consider us enemies. You are suppose to love your enemies. No don't sit there and say you love us. Your words show no love or compassion. Your words show that it is okay to lie for Jesus because many of your statements are pure fabrication and lies. When I say lie I am not saying that you don't know better as some people post here because they believe their source is reliable. You know better.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Your hate towards Mormons is so apparent that it is showing the darkness that is cantering your soul. You consider us enemies.

When have I ever called you "enemies"? I believe your religion is at enmity with Christianity but I have never called you my enemies. All religions are at enmity with Christianity yet the adherents are not my enemies.

You are suppose to love your enemies. No don't sit there and say you love us. Your words show no love or compassion.

I'm supposed to love all people. I don't know how having a discussion or debate about mormonism vs. Christianity is not loving. You're engaging in the same debate - are you saying that you are being hateful for doing so? Or are you applying that standard to me only? In what way to my words "show no love or compassion"?

Your words show that it is okay to lie for Jesus because many of your statements are pure fabrication and lies. When I say lie I am not saying that you don't know better as some people post here because they believe their source is reliable. You know better.

Where have I lied? If you're going to accuse me at least back it up. You're focusing on me and not the topic and that is against the forum's rules. Why are you focused on me and not the topic?

If I'm lying then call it out with evidence or logic. Instead, you are just attacking/flaming me and calling me a liar.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jane_Doe]

I posted this as part of a response in another thread but am creating a thread about Mormonism being the Occult so as not to derail that other thread.

When you don't share something, you are hiding it. When it is spiritual in nature, that is occultism. "Occult" means "hidden". Hidden spiritual knowledge is occultism.

Occultism is the hallmark of pagan and "mystery" religions. Mormonism fits into this category because they have the belief (and any mormon will readily admit this) that certain knowledge is not to be shared but rather to be hidden. This is similar to the pagan religions like masonry and witchcraft religions; the belief is that certain spiritual knowledge must be hidden from people who are "profane", which means they are not worthy to know that knowledge. Interestingly, that is exactly what mormons will say, that one must be "worthy" (i.e. not profane) to have certain spiritual knowledge revealed to them.

Christianity is not an occult religion. Christianity is an open religion, open to absolutely all people. Every Christian Church and Cathedral is open to all - nobody checks who you are when you enter. You can just go into any of them. All Christian rituals and sacraments are done openly for all to come and witness. Baptism, Marriage, Communion, Confirmation, etc. etc. - all done in the open. The message of the Bible - the Gospel - is the opposite of hiding things, it is to promote and evangelize all things of God.

You can come to NY City, a few blocks from where I work, go into St. Patrick's Cathedral any day, walk all around to all the shrines, walk behind the altar, into the chapels, etc. They have mass every day and you can see it. They do baptisms and other sacraments and tourists mill about as they do it. All is open. All is there for people to be able to see so that they can learn about God and the Gospel. We want people to come to our churches for whatever reason because it all points to God. We believe ALL people are worthy to hear the Gospel and all spiritual knowledge from God's Word because it all supports the Gospel.

Contrast Christian Churches like St. Patrick's to the Salt Lake City Temple - if I go visit Salt Lake City, I can see it from the outside but I am shut out and not allowed in. I am considered by the mormon religion to be profane, not worthy. They consider some 80-90% of their own members to be profane. They exclude their own members and all people from all other religions from their weddings, baptisms, etc. You won't see that at a Christian ritual. At a Christian wedding, guests can be other denominations, other religions like mormon, hindu, buddhist, muslim, jewish, etc. Nothing is hidden by Christians.

This is another stark difference between mormonism and Christianity.

Before dawn this morning, I joined my Savior Jesus Christ in being accused of witchcraft and devil worshiping (Luke 11:14-20). I joined His mother Mary in being accused of occultism for keeping sacred experiences and pondering them in my heart (Luke 2:19). I, a Christian, am accused thus because I am following His commands (Matt 7:6, John 20:3; Luke 8 54-56). I have joined the blessed that theirs is the kingdom of Heaven, for we are persecuted for righteousness sake and falsely say all manner of evil (Matt 5:10-11).

Before dawn this morning Christ Himself tells me “Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you (Matt 5:12)”.

Now that’s a pretty good morning! However, it’s going to be a late breakfast, because I have a lot of praying to do, beseeching blessing those here who (seemingly) hate me, despitefully use me, and persecute me (Matt 5:44). I am a Christian and pray that all may come to know Him.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Thank you, ya don't know how many times I wished I could pull a topic out of a thread and start another.



Matt 17
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


I can imagine when they did tell their story the oppositions saying; “yeah right, you’re just saying that so you can grab the church for yourselves.”

When did they tell their story? Is not telling a story the same as hiding or blocking it? No, it's not. It's hiding or blocking if you intentionally keep it from people, particularly when they ask about it and you refuse to talk to them about it.

Luke 8
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

I have assume that Luke interviewed some of the Apostles who were there many years later to get the story.

Luke didn't have to interview any of the Apostles to get the story. It's not Luke's story. It's God's story and He gave it to Luke.

John 20
30 ¶And many other signs/tokens truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Why?

*Matt 7:6 ¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(Not that you personally are swine)

First, you added "tokens" to the Bible verse. "Tokens" are shibboleths and other secrets used by occultists like pagans, witches, masons, and yes, mormons. The Bible doesn't deal in "tokens". Please don't change God's Word to suit your religion's beliefs.

And if I am not personally swine then what's stopping you from talking to me about it? The fact that your response to my pointing out the occultism and hiding of knowledge by your religion is "cast not your pearls before swine" is saying that you consider me and the others who are Christians to be swine who are not worthy of your "pearls". You then contradict yourself by saying I am not swine but your answer belies that.

I think it’s about mocking God and people asking for a sign; you claim such and such happened now show us.

At the pool of Bethesda Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath but instead of praising Jesus for the healing they go to slay him for healing on the Sabbath, go figure.

There is something about worldly men which makes them afraid of the sacred and of miracles, their reaction is different than one would expect.


*19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

I think there are some experiences which are meant for us personally and not to give to the world.

If you're talking about positive spiritual experiences then I disagree and the Bible disagrees with you:
Matthew 5:
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

If you have some positive spiritual knowledge or experience and you hide that under a bushel then the Bible says what you are doing is not logical. Men don't light a candle and then hide it under a bushel. The mormon religion does this. They claim to have spiritual knowledge that is sacred and special and that will help people yet they hide under a temple that is closed off to the unworthy (as they see most people, unworthy).

I've been there and walked through the building, I had several different reactions. First I felt I was intruding upon these people as they were saying their prayers, people were talking and taking pictures, it just felt odd. Later I thought;

Matt 6
5 ¶And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

It bothered me a lot and then there was the souvenir shop right there in the middle of what was suppose to be sacred. I bought a little pin, I got a collection of them, but it again it was an odd feeling.

I don't see your point here. Are you saying that people praying in church is the same as a hypocrite praying on a street corner? If so, then are you saying that mormons never pray in their churches because it's hypocritical??? I don't know what Matthew 6:5-6 has to do with St. Patrick's Cathedral. Please explain that.

What bothered you about the pictures and tourists? Do you feel they should have been tossed out or reprimanded? I can see why you might feel that way because you are an occultist and it is in your nature, taught by your religion, that certain things are only for certain worthy people. In Christianity, people are not treated as unworthy or as if they don't belong. In Christianity, we don't get upset over people doing innocent things like taking pictures. (I have to wonder - do people never take pictures in mormon churches or temples? I've actually SEEN pictures of people in front of the temples - so why is this OK for mormons but not Christians in your mind???)

What bothers you about the souvenir shop? Are you equally bothered by the mormon souvenir shop in Salt Lake City? If so, I've never heard you say you're bothered by the mormon religion's running of a shop. Incidentally, if it bothered you so much, why did you buy a pin? And it's not "in the middle of what was supposed to be sacred" - where did you get that from? For one thing, not "in the middle" - it's in the back corner of that massive cathedral... Second, a Cathedral is not "sacred" - in Christianity, we don't consider things so "sacred" as you consider your hidden knowledge, rituals, temples, etc. We don't believe people are "unworthy" of the building - we know the building is for the people more than for God. God dwells in Christians, not in a physical church or temple.

You can come in, all you have to do is get baptized and then be a good and faithful servant.

Thanks for proving my point that one has to become a member and therefore "worthy" and THEN and ONLY THEN can they enter a temple. But, you're being misleading. You left out that you also have to convince a mormon higher-up (bishop?) to believe that you are "a good and faithful servant" and use his judgment to deem you WORTHY and then issue you a membership card. So thank you for proving that I am right about the occultic, degree-oriented nature of the mormon religion. It is exactly that which is diametrically opposed to Christianity.

I can't partake of the Catholic communion unless I comply to their standards, I doubt the Lutherans would let me either.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic. I don't expect religions to invite everybody and anybody to partake in every single sacrament or ritual, but they at least should not be HIDING it. Mormon religion HIDES these things. Temple weddings are HIDDEN and they FORBID anyone, even the parents of the bride or groom, to attend or witness the wedding, and the reason is because they consider those people to be UNWORTHY. Mormonism is based on this pagan concept of worth or lack of worth in each person and the religion is the ultimate judge of a person's worth.

Profane?

Now you are making things up. The Lord wants you to come unto him, his arms are always outstretched.

And where did you get that 80-90%? I guess there is a 50% activity rate, so half don't even come. Add in the children and maybe .... I don't know, people move in and out of worthiness during their life time.

Profane means a person is not initiated into the membership of an organization like mormonism and is then deemed "unworthy". You yourself just said that people become worthy and then unworthy "in and out" during their lifetimes. So, you obviously believe people are worthy or unworthy and that confirms what I have been saying that your religion teaches.

Christianity says all are "unworthy" and that that is why all are under God's Grace. No one person is any more worthy or unworthy than another. We are all unworthy so why would we treat a visitor to one of our churches as being somehow less "worthy" than us that they should be locked out of our buildings and that we must hide our activities from them? But in mormonism, there is a strong belief that most people are UNWORTHY and things must be hidden from these unworthy dogs and swine.

I've had a period where I did not have a Temple recommend, not because the Bishop would not give it to me but because I felt I needed to do some repenting. It was nothing serious I just held some anger in my heart for someone and I knew it wasn't right to go to the Temple with those feelings. You have to understand that the faithful member makes up his own mind to go to the temple or not to go.

So the Bishop was going to give it to you even though you were unworthy but you made the decision to judge yourself unworthy and that's why you didn't get it? Interesting. It seems the bishop wasn't a good judge of your worthiness and had you decided to ask for it despite your knowledge of your unworthiness then he would have given a "worthy" approval to you despite your unworthiness.

So, not only does your religion judge people as worthy or unworthy but they don't even do it accurately all the time. That is unfortunate for the worthy who are denied the access to the higher levels and exclusive club quarters of the religion.

Of course, the true tragedy here is that people believe that some of them are "worthy" and some of them are "unworthy". It is a good method of control that witchcraft, masonry, and other such religions have used for centuries - a club-like hierarchy where members must please the ones in charge and earn worthiness. It is a great tool of control used by such exclusive organizations and religions. "Don't do this, do that, or else you don't get in the club!" And people naturally don't want to be left out so most do as they are controlled to do.

And anyone can come to a baptism.

Big deal. Parents can't even go to their own children's weddings if they're not deemed "worthy" by the higher ups in the occult religion or mormonism.

 

[withwonderingawe]

When did they tell their story? Is not telling a story the same as hiding or blocking it? No, it's not. It's hiding or blocking if you intentionally keep it from people, particularly when they ask about it and you refuse to talk to them about it.

You miss understand me, here on Christian forms we Mormons are not allowed to start a new thread. Very often a thread will get off topic because someone asks a question not pertaining to the subject at hand. I'd like to start another thread but the rules here forbid me. So I appreciate it when those who are un-forbidden will do it.

Now I've got to take my hubby to the hospital this morning to take off his heart monitor, I'd appreciate some prayers, it's will take a week before we find out what's going on and I could use all the prayers I can get.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Before dawn this morning, I joined my Savior Jesus Christ in being accused of witchcraft and devil worshiping (Luke 11:14-20). I joined His mother Mary in being accused of occultism for keeping sacred experiences and pondering them in my heart (Luke 2:19). I, a Christian, am accused thus because I am following His commands (Matt 7:6, John 20:3; Luke 8 54-56). I have joined the blessed that theirs is the kingdom of Heaven, for we are persecuted for righteousness sake and falsely say all manner of evil (Matt 5:10-11).

So you are just stating that you're like Jesus and Mary? Wow.

And I was, in your passage above, along with the other Christians here, called a "dog" and "swine".

Before dawn this morning Christ Himself tells me “Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you (Matt 5:12)”.

Which of the mormon heavens is he referring to? I don't think all the mormon heavens offer rewards - do you know you're going to the correct mormon heaven?

Now that’s a pretty good morning! However, it’s going to be a late breakfast, because I have a lot of praying to do, beseeching blessing those here who (seemingly) hate me, despitefully use me, and persecute me (Matt 5:44). I am a Christian and pray that all may come to know Him.

Who here hates you, despitefully uses you, or persecutes you?

This is a debate forum - it says so in the title. If debate to you feels like you're being hated, despitefully used, and persecuted then perhaps debate isn't for you.

After all, nobody called you any names here but you are calling Christians dogs and swine and using that as your reasons to not "cast your pearls" before us. You say it's "too sacred" for us Christians because we are dogs and swine (when you quoted Matthew 7:6 above).

 

[ArmenianJohn]

You miss understand me, here on Christian forms we Mormons are not allowed to start a new thread. Very often a thread will get off topic because someone asks a question not pertaining to the subject at hand. I'd like to start another thread but the rules here forbid me. So I appreciate it when those who are un-forbidden will do it.

Now I've got to take my hubby to the hospital this morning to take off his heart monitor, I'd appreciate some prayers, it's will take a week before we find out what's going on and I could use all the prayers I can get.

I have no idea what your explanation about mormons not starting new threads is about - I don't believe I spoke about that at all.

I'll pray for your husband, I hope you have as easy an experience today as possible! Same for the week ahead!

 

[Jane_Doe]

So you are just stating that you're like Jesus and Mary? Wow.

The similarity being invoked was clearly explained in post XXX.

And I was, in your passage above, along with the other Christians here, called a "dog" and "swine".

False statement. In fact, the exact opposite statement was made. Please cease bearing false witness.

Who here hates you, despitefully uses you, or persecutes you?

The OP statement here is just one example of all those behaviors.

This is a debate forum - it says so in the title. If debate to you feels like you're being hated, despitefully used, and persecuted then perhaps debate isn't for you.

The “debate” label is not an excuse for bearing false witness, slandering, mocking, and all manner of un-Christ-like behaviors. Such are expressly against forum guidelines.

After all, nobody called you any names here but you are calling Christians dogs and swine and using that as your reasons to not "cast your pearls" before us. You say it's "too sacred" for us Christians because we are dogs and swine (when you quoted Matthew 7:6 above).

Another false accusation.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The similarity being invoked was clearly explained in post XXX.

Indeed it was. It wasn't very rational though - if someone is accused of something it doesn't mean that the person is falsely accused.

False statement. In fact, the exact opposite statement was made. Please cease bearing false witness.

Where am I bearing false witness? In your post, you cite Matthew 7:6 (and you do so elsewhere, as do others) as the reason for not wanting to discuss the handshake that Dr. Steve created his post on and you repeat that reference in this thread. That verse says to not give that which is holy to the dogs and to not cast your pearls before swine.

What am I misunderstanding in your reference to that verse? I think I understand it correctly.

The OP statement here is just one example of all those behaviors.

How so? The OP points out the occultic nature of mormonism. How is this offensive to you? If it is wrong, well this is a debate forum and the point is for you to debate against it. You and others are instead choosing to deflect and dodge by focusing on me and my character (which, by the way, is against forum rules). If you think the OP is wrong, please feel free to debate it. If you think the OP is against forum rules, please feel free to report it.

The “debate” label is not an excuse for bearing false witness, slandering, mocking, and all manner of un-Christ-like behaviors. Such are expressly against forum guidelines.

Also against forum rules is attacking an individual and discussing that individual instead of the topic, as you're doing right now against me. But again, where have I or anyone borne false witness or slandered or mocked or committed any other manner of un-Christ-like behaviors? You have yet to cite specific instances. Simply saying "look at the OP" or look at a post doesn't satisfy the burden for evidence.

Another false accusation.

How so? I don't mind you calling me out if I make a false accusation, but if you are going to make that accusation then back it up. You aren't backing up any of your attacks on me.