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Featured MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    I gave you a simple yes and no question and you still haven't answered. So I understand your disagreement mode. Good luck and may God bless in finding the real truth. Jerry kelso
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This scenario is not what the Bible prophets tell us will happen.
    Only a remnant of the Jewish people will be saved. Romans 9:27 and many other scriptures.
    The people who will join Jesus in the Kingdom, are His followers, those who have freely accepted His salvation NOW. All who reject Him NOW, are doomed to destruction. Romans 9:22
    We Christians will fulfil the promises of God to the Patriarchs. We are their descendants, either by ethnicity or by grafting in.
     
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. Obviously, you disagree but you don't know your Bible.
    Ezekiel 37:16-28 is all about Israel and Judah being 2 sticks that will be united as one.
    Verse 22; And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all and they shall be no more nations, neither shall they be divided into 2 kingdoms any more at all.
    This is an eternal covenant of peace.

    2. Romans 9:27; a remnant will be saved in the tribulation.
    Zechariah 13:8 says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 refined.
    Revelation 11:13 the remnant affrighted and Revelation 12:17 the believing remnant of Israel's seed that is scattered.

    3. Revelation 12:14-16; The Sunclothed Woman is Israel and is protected in the wilderness for the rest of the tribulation.
    Romans 11:26; And so All Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
    For this my covenant unto them, when I shall be taken away their sins.
    Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8-12; the New Covenant has not been established with the nation of Israel but will be in the future.

    4. The Kingdom program ended with Israel's rejection Matthew 23:37-39. Jesus said he wouldn't see them till the Jews say Blessed is he that come th in the name of the Lord.
    This is why Jesus said in Acts 1:6-7 about the restoration of the Kingdom and Jesus said the times and seasons wasn't for them to know cause only the Father knows.
    The Jews were backslidden in Jesus day and rejected him.
    Today, many Jews are atheists so the whole nation is not united.
    The remnant will be saved but so will the rest of the nation afterwards so all Israel can be saved Roman's 11:25.

    Romans 9 is talking about the Jewish nation that were kinsman of the flesh of Paul's.
    Abraham was how they became children but it was in Isaac that there would be called.
    This is because a true ethnic Jew will not inherit salvation and the blessings of the covenants of the nation unless the were saved.
    Paul goes talks about Moses and Pharoah and how Pharoah hardened his heart.
    God gave Pharoah ten chances of grace and he rejected it.
    The more one rejects Christ the more the heart becomes harden until it passes the point of no return.
    In this context God had the right to not show mercy to Pharoah and the ones who listen to God he has the right to show mercy such as Moses and others who believe.
    Romans 9:22 shows that God was long suffering with the vessels of dishonor.
    This whole passage is directly about Israel and their history.

    5. The grafting in of the Gentiles into Israel is what has been happening in the church age.
    This will not prevent Israel's earthly calling as head of the nation as a complete nation Isaiah 2:2-4; Isaiah 9:6-7.
    The church will be raptured for it was a mystery to the Old Covenant nation of Israel 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
    There will be gentiles saved in the tribulation and for the most part will be martyred even though some will still be some who will be alive after Christ comes and some will not even know Christ will have come at all. Jerry kelso
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 


    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
    Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
    Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
    Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
    Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
    Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


     
    Heb 13:20  Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 


    Past and present tense during the first century.
    .
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I assure you that I know the Bible better than most do, and probably than you. Having written 4 books of over 500 articles on the subject of the Prophetic Word, I can justifiably claim that.
    I note that you cling to the 'rapture to heaven theory'. That belief is a prime example for people who don't know what God actually does plan for His people. His purpose for all of His Creation, is not to populate heaven, but to have a people to be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8
    Obviously you are locked into the false teachings about who is the Jewish nation and who are the true Israel of God. These truths are plain enough; God does not love or plan to redeem anyone who rejects Jesus. Simple really. 1 Peter 2:4-10, Romans 9:22
     
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    We are in the time of Apocalypse , precisely in the first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day of the week of God. Even now, in the present time, the faithful Israelites will be saved from imminent dangers, and I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel, twelve thousand of each tribe.

    Why only 144.000? Because they are not all Israel, which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac will thy seed be called, that is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God. If we compare this time of Apocalypse with the time of Elijah, it seems to be some simmetry or proportion of the numbers of true Israelites.

    Again, we are in the time of Apocalypse , precisely in the first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day of the week of God. Now, God entered in His rest, as He planned in the beginning of His works, and JESUS will judge all nations, included Israel, that is the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    In the time of Elijah there were only 7.000 true Israekites (1Kings 19:v.18), the rest were regarded by the Most High God as whether they were the idolater Gentiles, though they be millions.

    Verily, the 144.000 which will be sealed now, they are the number of ALL the true Israelite people in this time of Apocalypse, as well were the 7.000 counted in the time of Elijah, 7.000 were the whole true Israelite people in Israel.

    As for the millions of unbelieving Jews, the wrath of God will come upon them to the uttermost, as said JESUS: (Mat.23: 33to36):

    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    On the other hand, we will see Michael fighting against the body of the red dragon (Rev.12:7 and 16:13to16), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads, the great dragon will be cast into the abyss (Rev.20:1to4), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world, and his angels(2Cor.11:13to15) will be cast with him.

    Rev. 7:9to12)
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

     
  7. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 1 is a description of a plan of God for restoration of all things which were destroyed in ancient times in the garden of Eden. Other interesting thing that calls attention is the fact that Moses received this revelation from the Most High and Almighty God around 2.500 years after the apperance of first Adam, precisely after passed two and half days of the week of God. (One Day with the Lord is as a thousand years and vice-versa, as is is revealed by Moses in his pray Psalms 90:v.12-13&16 (Psa.90:v.4 and 2Peter 3:v.8)

    v.12 Teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13 Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. 16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

    Based on God's six days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven days or seven millenniums) plus the Scriptures that teach that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4), then the mankind would go through six God days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).
    In accord the Holy Scriptures, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, so we have a table of biblical times, as follow:
    Adam lived …................................130 yrs and begat Seth

    Seth lived ....................................105 yrs and begat Enosh;
    Enosh lived .................................. 90 yrs and begat Kenan;
    Kenan lived................................... 70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
    Mahalalel lived ............................. 65 yrs and begat Jared;
    Jared lived .................................. 162 yrs and begat Enoch;
    Enoch lived ................................... 65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
    Methuselah lived..........................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
    Lamech lived ...............................182 yrs and begat Noah;
    From Noah´s birth until the Flood..600 yrs.


    Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood = 1.656 yrs.

    I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. See this table below:

    PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ----------------------- DURATION
    I - From Adam until the Flood------------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
    II - From the Flood until Abraham---------------------427 years
    III - From Abraham until Exodus----------------------430 years
    IV - From Exodus until king Saul ----------------------396 years
    V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem -------------508 years
    VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus -----------587 years


    Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus – 4.004 years

    From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar) - 2.017 years

    Total from Adam until our days ------------------ 6.021 years

    Jesus, the Greater Light (Gen.1:16) came in the fourth Day of God's week or around 4.000 years after the creation of the first Adam, the earthly Adam. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more two Days of the week of God, totalizing 6 complete Days or six milleniums, around 6.000 years, more precisely 6.017 years, conform Christian Calendar. We have entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's week, that is the Great Sabbath. We are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, and the Day of the Lord, and the Day of Vengeance, and the Day of Judgment. And our Almighty God the Father entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping of course, and JESUS assumed the control or the government of the Universe. JESUS is now sat on His Tribunal, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

    The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:15)

    Return, O Lord, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. Amen.
    Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

    Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
     
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keeps,

    1. No disrespect to your books and many articles but one can have a wrong set of hermeneutics and come to the same wrong answer all their lives.

    2. You seem to think I believe the rapture to Heaven is about merely occupying Heaven.
    Nothing farther from the truth.
    2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer we shall reign. We are being trained through our trials today to rule in the KoH millennial reign on earth.
    Revelation 2:26-27 we the church will rule and reign with Christ with a rod of iron over the nations on earth.
    The 7 years will be because he has prepared a place for us John 14:6. But we will all be judged for our works 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; Revelation 11:18 for the purpose of rewards and positions in the KoH on earth for faithfulness.

    3. The church will be a light to the nations as witnesses but the historical context of Isaiah 43:10 and 49:8 was directly to the nation of Israel and their covenant over the nations. Verse 9 shows this by starting out with; Let all the nations be gathered together.... Verse 15; I am the Lord your Holy one, the creator of Israel your King. This is about the historical nation of Israel not the church who wasn't around.

    4. Romans 2:17-29 is all about the ethnic Jew is only a real Jew if he is saved.
    The Ezekiel passages such as Ezekiel 18 proves that the ethnic Jews that sinned, God would not save them if they didn't Repent but he would save the wicked Gentile if they repented. Israel thought that God was being unfair because they were his chosen people and he told them they were wrong.
    Ethnicity has nothing to with inheriting the kingdom.

    5. The church can be called a spiritual Jew concerning salvation inwardly and not outwardly.
    However, this had nothing to do with replacing Israel in their specific eternal covenants concerning the KoH reign on earth.
    Sorry but you are wrong according to the scriptural context on every point you gave. Jerry kelso
     
  9. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. The KoH and the KoG message preached by Jesus in his earthly ministry to Israel ended when Israel rejected that message Matthew 23:37-39.
    Verse 39 tells that Jesus will see them in the KoH when they say blessed be the name of the Lord.
    This didn't happen in the early church.
    Jesus told them he didn't know when the KoH would be restored for only the Father knew.

    2. The House of Israel is because that is about all there was.
    The body of Christ wasn't understood then because it was still a mystery 10 years later at Peter's vision of clean and unclean.
    But the day of Pentecost started the church age.
    70 A.D. was already prophesied by Jesus Matthew 24:1-2 so the early church was not about Israel getting a second chance at the Kingdom just because the New Covenant had happened.
    You know Israel the nation rejected Paul and he went to the Gentiles.
    Romans 9-11 and the grafting in of the Gentiles which eventually came the revelation of the body of Christ appeared shows what was passing away of the law of Moses which was the problem for the Jews and the early church and that is part of the reason why the Gentiles finally came into the picture to make Israel jealous for God.
    Israel the nation's rejection and A.D. 70 destruction show that Israel never received the New Covenant as a complete nation. This is why you are always wrong about Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13.
    The New Covenant was going to come whether they believed or not. Sadly, they didn't believe and that is why you have to concoct this false narrative about the believing Jew and the Gentile spiritual Jew and the remnant and replace Israel's gifts and callings with the church taking their place.
    So the past was rejection in Jesus day by Israel and it came to pass in 70 A.D.
    In the 1st century the Jewish nation wasn't even prevalent. That was when the Catholics started taking on their false narrative of Apostolic Succession in order to take the Jews place. Get real and quit believing such ridiculous beliefs. Jerry Kelso
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It happened on the Day of Pentecost.

    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 
    Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 
    Act 2:38  Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

     
    Act 2:41  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 

    .
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Exactly as you do, with a rapture removal fixed in your mind, all scripture is seen from that viewpoint.
    Take John 14:1-3 that you mention, nowhere does it say anyone will live in those 'mansions' in heaven. It is only after the Millennium, that the New Jerusalem, what Jesus was plainly talking about, comes down to earth and is then occupied as we are told in Revelation 21.
    You have no proof of any other interpretation of this scripture.

    Your accusations against anyone who challenges your beliefs, are rude and unchristian.
    I have yet to see any scriptural proof of a general rapture to heaven, pre, mid or post trib. That whole idea is just a lie and is totally refuted by Jesus: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, +
     
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Those scriptures have nothing to do with presenting the KoH reign on earth.
    Jesus had already told them that the restoration of the KoH reign wasn't for them to know.
    Quit wrenching the scriptures out of context.
    All of Israel has to be saved as a nation and 3000 wasn't all of the nation.
    There was so much turmoil among the nation just because of how to live the law of Moses according to the New Covenant.
    Paul finally gave up on them and not because of the Kingdom of God message and salvation and things concerning the Church of Jew and Gentile alike on the same level.

    2. If the KoH reign would have been taught and 3000 were enough then the KoH reign would have happened and the agriculture would have flourished Joel 2 and the lamb would have layed down with the wolf Isaiah 13 and Israel's enemies would have been put down like prophesied in Luke 1:71. These things never happened and Israel the nation was destroyed in 70 A.D. The KoH physical reign has still not happened and David is not the King over Israel yet as well as Christ and Israel is not at the head of the nations.

    3. You are manipulating the scripture because Peter is addressing the whole house of Israel and because some of that house repented and were saved.
    You ignore what Jesus said about the KoH restoration was not for them to know and even he didn't know.
    If it was a second chance to receive the KoH Jesus would not have answered in the way he did in Acts 1:6-7.
    Since they didn't receive the KoH reign in the early church proves they have not received the New Covenant yet as described in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8.
    If it would have come the Jew wouldn't have to be taught anything for all would know.

    4. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13 is all in the context of the KoH reign starting as a result of restoration of the physical kingdom. The Jew cannot rule the KoH until they Repent of their sins Romans 11:26-27.
    Quit misleading everyone by not giving the full context. Jerry kelso
     
  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Those scriptures have nothing to do with presenting the KoH reign on earth.
    Jesus had already told them that the restoration of the KoH reign wasn't for them to know.
    Quit wrenching the scriptures out of context.
    All of Israel has to be saved as a nation and 3000 wasn't all of the nation.
    There was so much turmoil among the nation just because of how to live the law of Moses according to the New Covenant.
    Paul finally gave up on them and not because of the Kingdom of God message and salvation and things concerning the Church of Jew and Gentile alike on the same level.

    2. If the KoH reign would have been taught and 3000 were enough then the KoH reign would have happened and the agriculture would have flourished Joel 2 and the lamb would have layed down with the wolf Isaiah 13 and Israel's enemies would have been put down like prophesied in Luke 1:71. These things never happened and Israel the nation was destroyed in 70 A.D. The KoH physical reign has still not happened and David is not the King over Israel yet as well as Christ and Israel is not at the head of the nations.

    3. You are manipulating the scripture because Peter is addressing the whole house of Israel and because some of that house repented and were saved.
    You ignore what Jesus said about the KoH restoration was not for them to know and even he didn't know.
    If it was a second chance to receive the KoH Jesus would not have answered in the way he did in Acts 1:6-7.
    Since they didn't receive the KoH reign in the early church proves they have not received the New Covenant yet as described in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8.
    If it would have come the Jew wouldn't have to be taught anything for all would know.

    4. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13 is all in the context of the KoH reign starting as a result of restoration of the physical kingdom. The Jew cannot rule the KoH until they Repent of their sins Romans 11:26-27.
    Quit misleading everyone by not giving the full context. Jerry kelso
     
  14. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. You haven't proved the pre- rapture wrong yet and you can't.

    2. Those mansions will be in Heaven for us to live in during the tribulation.
    Revelation 5:9-10 we are in Heaven before the tribulation. Revelation 11:18 we are in Heaven being judged for our word and will receive our rewards. Revelation 19:7-10 we are at the marriage of the Lamb and ready to come out of Heaven at the great Supper of God called Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15.
    You think we're just gonna be floating on clouds during that time?

    2. We will be Kings, Priests and Rulers to come in the Earthly Kingdom reign before we enter the Holy City coming down from Heaven to Earth.
    2 Timothy 2:12 says we are being trained to rule in the kingdom reign on earth today. So you are not giving the full picture.

    3. I believe in proper debate and rebuttal according to proper scriptural hermeneutics and proper context and reconciliation of the scriptures.
    My challenges are not rude or unchristian.
    I show scriptural proof and context and all you do is give your opinion and give some scriptures but not the full context of the subject and no real scriptural rebuttal.

    4. No rapture at all? Well obviously you don't understand 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

    5. John 3:13; is just talking about salvation.
    John 7:34; context is to the Jews when he would go back to Heaven after he arose. Verse 33 backs this up.
    John 8:21-23; to the unbelieving Jew who would reject his message and die in their sins. Unbelievers cannot go to Heaven and live.
    None of the above scriptures prove that there is no rapture.
    The scriptures I gave show the truth of a rapture.
    The 144,000 Jews are sealed through the trumpet judgements in Revelation 7 and raptured to Heaven and God's throne in Revelation 14:1-5.
    The 2witnesses will be killed in Revelation 11 and after 3 days will be raised up from the dead to go to heaven.
    The last resurrection in Revelation 15:1-2 were those who didn't take the mark of the beast and are raptured to Heaven before the Wrath of God on the Beast Kingdom Worshippers who took the mark Revelation 16:2.
    This is Bible Truth. Jerry kelso
     
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    Oseas,

    1. Some think one should go off the Jewish calendar.

    2. If we are in the first century of the 7th millennium themselves where is God's rest and why hasn't the tribulation started and ended?
    The KoH reign lasts for an actual 1000 years which would lead to the 8th day where the Son gives back the kingdom to the Father so God can be all in all.
    Then the New Heaven and the New Earth I'll be created and God will tabernacle with man forever and the Holy City will come down to earth forever. Jerry kelso
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I don't need to; Jesus did in at least five scriptures. Also the prophets tell us what God actually does plan for His people.
    Dream on! Nowhere does John 14:1-4 say the Church goes to live in those 'mansions' in heaven. Only when the New Jerusalem comes down to earth, is it inhabited. Revelation 21 & 22
    Your tone is like that of most rapture believers; you all think you hold the high ground of scriptural truth and those who challenge you are some kind of lower life. But especially when asked [nicely!] to provide the scriptural proof of a rapture to heaven, then the personal denigration and nasty abuse kicks in.
    You Jerry, are not so bad as the poster on another forum who wanted to tar and feather me! You just make assertions and definitive opinions about prophesies like 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, making them mean something they don't.
    I understand your difficulty, when asked to show scriptural proof; there isn't any and Dr Walvoord, who wrote The Rapture Question, 1959, said: The Bible does not state it [a rapture] in so many words.
    Already addressed. Going to heaven is not what those scriptures are about. That idea has to be taught into them, by teachers that the Lord will judge very severely. James 3:1
    Not how I and millions of other Christians plainly read it. That verse has convinced several rapture believers of their error. You are obviously too deeply in deception to even read plain Words of Jesus.
     
  17. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. What 5 scriptures are you talking about? I don't see them.

    2. John 14:1-3
    Jesus said he would prepare a place for us and verse 3 says that he would receive us unto himself that wherever he is we may be also.
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 shows the dead in Christ will come from Heaven with Christ and they will be resurrected first and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD. Sorry You are Dreaming!

    2. Revelation 5:9-10 shows the 24 elders who represent the church who have been redeemed the saints to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation; and Has made us unto our God Kings, Priests: and we shall reign on earth.
    The saints in Heaven before the tribulation begins.
    Revelation 11:18; rewards to the prophets and to the saints. This shows Old and New Testament saints between the middle of the tribulation and towards the last half of the tribulation in Heaven.
    Revelation 19:7-10 saints in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb right before we come out of Heaven to go to earth at the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15 which is the Great Supper of God Revelation 19:17.

    3. I gave you nothing nasty but I gave you the word of God. You give a few scriptures and your opinion not context.
    You think the rapture is false so we disagree but you can't show the full context on the subject to support your position and that seems to frustrate you.
    I don't know you so why would I think you were a lowlife? That is your false perception.
    Most people that don't believe in the pre-trib rapture are all about escapism which is true for some that don't know better.
    2 Timothy 2:12 shows the church is being trained for rulership trading in the kingdom reign through our sufferings and trials.
    The nation of Israel has to be purged in the time of Jacob's trouble which is only in reference to the Nation of Israel and not the church.
    Who wants to go through the Great Tribulation? But as far as the whole essence of escapism I have always said the Bible said to occupy until he comes.
    Though this passage is before the church came to be and prophetic to the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble it is a given we are to be about the Father's business.
    You can believe whatever you want and that is your right but you shown any scripture to debunk the scriptures and context I gave.
    You can be right in your own position by your own set of hermeneutics but that doesn't mean it's right.

    3. I have studied all the positions and I believe you set them side by side and can deduce which one is right.
    The word rapture is a snatching away or being caught away and they say it is in the Latin Vulgate.
    The focus of the church is today and the focus of the tribulation is for the Jewish nation to fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham; the land Genesis 12-15 and David; the throne 2 Samuel 7:3-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Ezekiel 37:17-28.

    4. You think I am in deception but you haven't debunked any scripture I gave.
    I have showed Christ will receive us unto himself and we will be with him forever. I have given the scriptures proving the saints are in Heaven before the tribulation till the Day of the Lord.
    I have shown you scripture that the tribulation is about the nation of Israel and its covenant promises.
    I have shown you that the rapture isn't necessarily going to bother your salvation but how you interpret the Book of Revelation can shed light on how you interpret the rest of the word and what kind of Hermeneutics you use.
    I have answered your basic questions about the rapture. Now it is your turn to see if you can rebut clearly my position and why you think I am wrong.

    5. One last thing, the rapture which is when we are resurrected with the deadin Christ was a mystery to the Old Testament saints 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 just like the church was a mystery to them Ephesians 2:14-15;3:3-6.
    The Day of the Lord was not a Mystery to the Old Testament saints as throughout all the prophets, both major and minor.
    The resurrection of the dead was familiar to the Old Testament saints John 11:24 and Hebrews 6:1-2; and Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.
    The martyrs that didn't take the mark of the beast will be resurrected to end the First Resurrection and this will be before the 7 vials which is the Wrath of God on those who took the mark Revelation 15:1; 16:2. Jerry kelso
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Where does the 'rapture to heaven' idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
    But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
    Jesus said: [plus other verses and the teachings of the Apostles, none say the Church will be taken to heaven]
    John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
    John 7:33-34I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
    John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
    John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
    Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

    Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
    The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; protection during the terrible times ahead. And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.
    To where He is; that is on earth after His Return.
    This prophecy is about the Return of Jesus, when He gathers those who remain, as described in Matthew 24:30-31. It will be a transportation, like Philip had. Acts 8:39
    I can show you what God actually does plan for His faithful Christian people. Read my website; logostelos.info for all the details from the Prophetic Word about how God will protect His own and bless them in the holy Land.
    You fail to understand that the Jewish nation of Israel has no further part to play in God's plan. Only those individuals, true Christians from every race, nation and language are His people. Those who reject Jesus will be judged and many will die. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Hebrews 10:27, +
    Read Revelation 12:6 & 12 and you will see that God will take those who are faithful to Him to a place of safety on earth during the GT. We WILL occupy until Jesus comes and it will be Christians who welcome Him with; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
    Where you go wrong, is attributing the promises of God to the Jews. The New Testament teachings are plain: There is now no Jew or Gentile; all are one in Christ. Ephesians 2:11-18, +
    There is also God's mystery of the House of Israel, the Northern ten tribes, who; it can be proved, are now in the main, the Western; Christian nations. Note how the prophets always carefully maintain the separation between Judah and Israel. Over 160 times in the Bible.
    So your contention of the Jews being refined during the GT is wrong and is refuted by the many prophesies saying that the Lord will send fire and most will die. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18
     
  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. You didn't give a proper rebuttal.
    You don't believe rapture to Heaven and yet I gave you the scriptures in Revelation to prove that saints are now in Heaven, will be from the pre-trib rapture to the end right before the Day of the Lord and you didn't address it at all.
    All you did was make accusations that I promote ideas of assumption and inferences.
    You haven't proved anything but that you like to generalize and skate the truth.
    Just because you disagree you use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 to make it sound like I am into false doctrine which you haven't proved and because you have no answer.

    2. You say Jesus never said anything about us going to Heaven.
    However, the scriptures you gave are not in the context about the rapture.
    John 3:13; And no man hath ascended up to Heaven, but he that came down from Heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.
    Enoch and Elijah were translated up to Heaven but not by their own power. Christ didn't ascend up to Heaven until after his resurrection.
    Christ came down as a babe from Heaven when he was born.
    The Son of man was not in Heaven physically when he was on earth even though some believe his divine nature was.
    If it is physical it would mean John wrote this verse after Christ arose.
    From verse 13-21 is written in the third person.
    This has no future reference to the rapture of the church age saints going to Heaven.
    John 7:33-34; The Jewish nation overall are promised the earthly Kingdom in the future tribulation which is separate from the church age saints who go to Heaven and the tribulation martyrs who are are martyred.
    This doesn't means that there will be no Jewish saints who will be raptured to Heaven that are not part of the earthly kingdom in Israel for David will be King in Israel Ezekiel 37:24 and the apostle will judge the twelve tribes in that day Matthew 19:28
    John 8:21-23; he was talking to the Pharisees who were reprobates could never be a part of him or go to Heaven at all. This has nothing to do with Christians not going to Heaven.
    John 17:15 is talking to the disciples who would be part of the church age and this is no reference to the future rapture of saints who will go to Heaven. Heaven
    Revelation 5:10 are the saints in Heaven and who will be Kings and Priests etc. in the millennial kingdom.
    Revelation 12:6;12 is about Israel not the church.
    The Manchild is the future 144,000 Jews not the historical Christ or the church.
    3. You have no evidence to support your position to go to wait the Great White Throne Judgement. That Judgement is only for sinners and is called the second death and they will be resurrected 1000 years after the righteous. They are judged for their evil works and then thrown into the Lake of Fire Revelation 20:12-15.
    Matthew 24:30-31; this is the Day of the Lord and the gathering of the Jewish elect. This is not the rapture.
    4. God doesn't only promise protection from tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 5:9; God has not appointed us to Wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Enoch was translated before the flood and is a type of the rapture and not having to go through the flood.
    Matthew 24 says the days of tribulation will be as the days of Noah! Get the picture?

    5. There is no argument that Israel will be blessed in their own land. The Heavenly saints will all be in rulership positions on earth.
    We are being trained today to rule for the Kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12. Israel has to be purged in the time of Jacob's trouble Daniel 9:24.

    6. If you are so certain the Jewish nation has no more calling explain Genesis 12-15; 2 Samuel 7:13:16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-29; Hebrews 8:7-12; Revelation 12:14-17.

    7. Isaiah 66:15-17 is about the Day of the Lord where people will be killed at the battle of Armageddon.
    Zephaniah 1:14-18; Day of the Lord
    Hebrews 10:27; same reference as Zephaniah 1:18 concerning adversaries.

    8. No Jew or Gentile in the body just means that we are all equal spiritually and through grace instead of the law's sacrificial system we can become one new man. Ephesians 2:11-18;
    This has nothing to do with Israel's earthly calling and position of authority in the kingdom.

    9. What scripture do you use that claims that God has a mystery House of Israel that are in the western nations? Ephraim?
    In that day the Jews will have help by Elijah to show who belongs to what tribe and God will gather them back to Israel and Israel and Judah will be pure and will become united as one stick forever Ezekiel 37.

    10. Jews will be purged from sins Daniel 9:24. In the time of Jacob's trouble 12:1; Jeremiah 30:4-9; Matthew 24:21.
    Jacob's trouble is only in reference to Israel and never the church.

    11. Amos 2:4-5 is historical not prophetic.
    Isaiah 22:14; is historical as seen in verse 12; and in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping and to mourning and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth.
    Jeremiah 10:18; historical.
    Israel won't be refined but purged from sin and that is repentance as well as the unbelieving Jews that will be killed. So your logic is wrong.
    Revelation 12:6 is not the church.
    The place of safety is for the Sun Clothed woman who is Israel not the church for the travail is only referenced to Israel.
    The verse about occupying till he comes was historical directly to the Jews.
    Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord was spoken by Jesus to and about the Jews not the church.
    You need to learn proper context and not use verses of scripture randomly and learn proper rebuttal. Jerry kelso
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You haven't yet posted any scripture that says God will take the Church to heaven. So I don't need to.
    Jesus said such an idea was impossible. Not just once but over 5 times. End of story.
    The irrefutable evidence is that only after the GWT, will death be no more. Revelation 21:4, paralleled by 1 Corinthians 15:54b-55
    Right; He won't protect those who stand helplessly, not knowing what to do, faint with terror as the celestial powers are shaken....Luke 21:25-26 wondering why God has forsaken them, as they remain stuck on earth..... We are told to call upon His Name and I have a list of 20+ verses saying that He will protect His own, not remove them.
    Not the Jewish usurpers of the name; Israel, but the Israel of God, His faithful Christians, God's Overcomers, everyone who freely believe in Him now. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:26
    I could post a dozen + prophesies saying that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive, That remnant will join their Christian brethren. The have had their chance over the last 2000 years; no change in their rejection of Jesus, excepting for a few thousand Messianic Jews.
    The promises to ancient Israel, now pertain to the Christian peoples. Ephesians 3:6
    So do you think the Jews will reinstitute the sacrificial under Mosaic Law? Not likely!
    Amos 9:9, Ezekiel 11:14-16, John 10:16 are a few that come to mind; there is plenty of other evidence, scriptural and secular.
    Sadly, if they continue to reject the Son of God, they will die. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:4, Zephaniah 1:18, Luke 19:27
    When did the Lord send fire?
    But it is; proved by ...the rest of her offspring, those who keep the Commandments and witness to Jesus.
    You need to get the rapture nonsense out of your head and see the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.
     
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