Morality without God

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I could consider certain actions of atheists moral or immoral but could I call them moral when they (if they honestly examine the concept) can't even consider themselves as such? What is the materialist atheist who denies the existence of a transcendent creator? He is the random product of evolution which, as a phenomena, didn't take into account morality when that process ended in him. Both actions which human society say are good and bad ended with himself and if there is nothing more to that, then what is there to call truly moral except for the common agreement of a species not to act, or too act a certain way?

 

[Cis.jd]

Are you a Christian? You do not argue like one.

I am, but I am really tired of the bad image christianity has and it's christians themselves who are responsible for this image.

I view every post here to be a potential resource for somebody who could be a non-believer, a person struggling to keep his beliefs, or an anti-christian looking for quotes to support whatever debate he is in.

 

[GenemZ]

I am, but I am really tired of the bad image christianity has and it's christians themselves who are responsible for this image.

Well then, go find someone who has that image and bug him. With me you have been barking up the wrong tree. You keep bring up things that in relation to who I am in Christ that are absurd. I am not here to answer for them. Certain Christians always have had a bad image. Its a rare time in history (when there is a genuine Word of God revival) that Christians can lead the way with common sense they garnered from the wisdom gained from the study of sound teachings. Otherwise, no one has a good image in this world. Yet, the world loves its own.

 

[Cis.jd]

Well then, go find someone who has that image and bug him. With me you have been barking up the wrong tree. You keep bring up things that in relation to who I am in Christ that are absurd. I am not here to answer for them. Certain Christians always have had a bad image. Its a rare time in history (when there is a genuine Word of God revival) that Christians can lead the way with common sense they garnered from the wisdom gained from the study of sound teachings. Otherwise, no one has a good image in this world. Yet, the world loves its own.

You keep missing the point. Just from what was told to you, and what you just said in this quote, how can you ever make an intellectually reasonable argument about morality being evidence of the Christian God?

 

[GenemZ]

You keep missing the point. Just from what was told to you, and what you just said in this quote, how can you ever make an intellectually reasonable argument about morality being evidence of the Christian God?

Why should you? Who cares?

 

[JIMINZ]

As I see it , you have made two statements about the original question in the OP which were not asked.

1)

Do I believe our morality is designed by the Christian God, yes..

2)

but I will never use it or see it as a compelling argument to use against a non-believer.

It seemed to be a pretty straight forward question, and a simple answer coupled with Scripture would have sufficed as an answer.

 

[Cis.jd]

2)

It seemed to be a pretty straight forward question, and a simple answer coupled with Scripture would have sufficed as an answer.

it's not a straight forward answer.

 

[GenemZ]

it's not a straight forward answer.

You are never going to win over an unbeliever with answering such questions. They are just toying with you. Did you lose your faith because you can not answer such questions?

 

[GenemZ]

You keep missing the point. Just from what was told to you, and what you just said in this quote, how can you ever make an intellectually reasonable argument about morality being evidence of the Christian God?

Lets say for a moment that you not only presented an intellectually reasonable argument. Let's even say its irrefutable. Do you think that will guarantee conversion by someone who rejects God?

The goal of the unbeliever is to present questions with much wiggle room as to leave you feeling you left them without excuse for rejecting Jesus Christ. It was not an answer to their question they really sought. They are setting you up to get caught up into a non essential distraction as to deflect you off course of where God wants you.

Increase growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ; to him [is] the glory both now, and to the
day of day of everlastingness. ! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18​

The heck with them. We can get naively distracted away from God's purpose by those not desiring to know the Lord. We should all find an excellent pastor teacher. One to continuously keep growing in knowledge of the Word while walking in the filling of the Spirit (grace). All else is non essential. Like trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[JIMINZ]

it's not a straight forward answer.

Sure it is, if you would stop making it so convoluted, and stick to the question as asked.

It's calling for a judgement to be made.

 

[Cis.jd]

Sure it is, if you would stop making it so convoluted, and stick to the question as asked.

It's calling for a judgement to be made.

But the question is based off an issue, so logically there is no straight forward answer. Especially when getting to the heart of the matter in where theological arguments like these are affected on wider scope based on factors of today. You can't tell someone to have a single minded answer.

 

[Cis.jd]

Lets say for a moment that you not only presented an intellectually reasonable argument. Let's even say its irrefutable. Do you think that will guarantee conversion by someone who rejects God?

The goal of the unbeliever is to present questions with much wiggle room as to leave you feeling you left them without excuse for rejecting Jesus Christ. It was not an answer to their question they really sought. They are setting you up to get caught up into a non essential distraction as to deflect you off course of where God wants you.

Increase growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ; to him [is] the glory both now, and to the
day of day of everlastingness. ! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18​

The heck with them. We can get naively distracted away from God's purpose by those not desiring to know the Lord. We should all find an excellent pastor teacher. One to continuously keep growing in knowledge of the Word while walking in the filling of the Spirit (grace). All else is non essential. Like trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

It's better for a non-believer to reject Christ based on his/her own understanding than to reject christ due to a false image made by people who claim him as truth. This entire post you've made has 0 connection to any of my points, reality is you have nothing to respond with in context.

Morality is no longer a good argument in support to the Christian God. How can a non-believer ever be convinced that morality is evidence when these believers think battered women have to stay with their husbands, think that doing good still sends you to hell, thinking that "retards" are going to hell because their is no excuse for not believing in Christ, thinking Women should be in pain during labor? So, to play "non-believer" here.. how can I believe our morality is evidence of your god when you can't even tell right from wrong?

 

[Cis.jd]

You are never going to win over an unbeliever with answering such questions. They are just toying with you. Did you lose your faith because you can not answer such questions?

Answer what questions? Is morality evidence of God? I say yes, but is it evidence of the Christian God. Probably not. I will be honest and concede by admitting this isn't evidence because there isn't weight to support this anymore. You are going out of context.

 

[Cis.jd]

@JIMINZ Please don't insult me by hitting the laughing emoji, JIMINZ. It is narrow minded to think an answer to this question is a simple one.

Since Genez is going in circles replying in avoiding the contexts of my posts, you are free to replace him if you actually think you have an intellectual view on this.

 

[GenemZ]

Answer what questions? Is morality evidence of God? I say yes, but is it evidence of the Christian God. Probably not. I will be honest and concede by admitting this isn't evidence because there isn't weight to support this anymore. You are going out of context.

Is not the Christian God the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Of Adam?

 

[GenemZ]

Morality is no longer a good argument in support to the Christian God. How can a non-believer ever be convinced that morality is evidence when these believers think battered women have to stay with their husbands,

That's what your church teaches?

think that doing good still sends you to hell,

If they think they do not need to believe in Jesus Christ, and that their good works will save them? Of course. The issue in what causes salvation is not our works. Its faith in Christ that saves.

thinking that "retards" are going to hell because their is no excuse for not believing in Christ, thinking Women should be in pain during labor? So, to play "non-believer" here.. how can I believe our morality is evidence of your god when you can't even tell right from wrong?

Is that what they teach in your church? Is both dark and absurd. No light. I never walked into a church that teaches the odd ball doctrines you seem to think are make or break for an unbeliever. I never heard of them until I bumped into you. I never even heard an unbeliever cite them as a reason for not believing. And, I have heard all sorts of excuses.

 

[Cis.jd]

Is that what they teach in your church? Is both dark and absurd. No light.

I got that from here. post #52
Is there a "second chance" for salvation.

Also, on #34 read what i have in the quote box. Someone thinks Nazi's have a greater chance than any jew he burned alive

Here is another
What is the point of infant baptism?.

 

[GenemZ]

I got that from here. post #52
Is there a "second chance" for salvation.

Also, on #34 read what i have in the quote box. Someone thinks Nazi's have a greater chance than any jew he burned alive

Here is another
What is the point of infant baptism?.

That's all dumb stuff that some post here to troll us with. You should not take them seriously. Most Christians would never teach such things.

 

[Cis.jd]

That's all dumb stuff that some post here to troll us with. You should not take them seriously. Most Christians would never teach such things.

You know they are serious.

 

[GenemZ]

You know they are serious.

You have not seen enough outside of your own church to know they are most likely not even Christians. They most likely are people that come here claiming to be Christians who want to test Christians to see what they can confuse us with. There are people like that out there. I have bumped into one who grew up in my church where serious Bible teaching takes place. He hates Christianity, but he learned all the lingo and knows how to talk the talk.. and tries to use it against us if we are not well informed.

If you are taught well you will not waste time with their kind beyond a certain point. They do not come here to learn truth. But, to see how they can confuse Christians... Seen it in other forums too.