Morality without God

[Strong in Him]

Sure, why not? You have to live among your fellow creatures, and common sense should dictate that you don't go around killing and stealing and such.

There are some people who feel that killing someone who does not belong to their faith is justified, as they are wicked sinners. Within that group, causing the death of "infidels" might be seen not only as moral, but commendable.
There are some people who seem to think that "honour killings", where a daughter has shamed their family, is the right thing to do.
There seem to be some societies where the abuse and rape of women is commonplace - because they are men's property.
In western society, the murder of unborn babies is sometimes seen as justifiable. In our society also, there are couples who say that having affairs, or threesomes, enriches their own marriage - and these days, it's not so much a question of IF a teenager should sleep with a boy, but WHEN.

Again, without God, who defines "morality"?

 

[frederick943]

"There are some people who feel that killing someone who does not belong to their faith is justified, as they are wicked sinners. Within that group, causing the death of "infidels" might be seen not only as moral, but commendable."

Exactly, and the early Christians practiced this a lot, such as regarding perceived heretics, witches, Jews, etc.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Can you be moral without God?

Romans 2:14-15:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

It appears that Scripture here claims they can be moral...not a morality stemming from a saving faith however. As is stated they are acting upon the Law written on their hearts which will bear witness against them on the day of Judgement.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Can you be moral without God?

Yeah, with human morality that shifts with the culture. Some unbelievers follow Christian values without doing them for God. However, an unbeliever does not want God's principles in the Bible because they begin with morality done in love for God, first of all, and then for the neighbor--all out of true faith and gratitude for Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Can you be moral without God?

Another passage which speaks of a look alike morality but falls short is the following...
II Timothy 3:5:
having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

 

[Messerve]

("YES")

Um... Not to be nitpicky (gross word by the way) but morality without God is nothing to celebrate because morality doesn't save. Unless somehow a person was born perfect, which would contradict Scripture, a person is only saved through Jesus - moral or not.

 

[Messerve]

Because there is a God. He is still the standard whether we believe in Him or not.

Here's an interesting tidbit of history... People often pick on missionaries of Victorian times and say that those missionaries forced tribal people to change their ways - burned statues, wear English clothing, etc. That may have happened some places, but in other places the missionaries never even suggested the tribal people's should wear Western clothing and those people came to them for the clothing because once saved they realized that there is a Biblical reason to have a healthy degree of shame before God simply because we're creatures and He's the Creator. So they wanted the missionaries' clothing as a sign of their servitude to God.

So their morality told them they were fine wearing loincloths only, but when the Gospel arrived, they had a desire to cover up better.

do you think it's a coincidence the theme of "shameless" has been mentioned so much in pop culture in recent years? When a people has hardened their hearts toward God, that's the same thing. There is no sense of shame. They think they are on God's level almost.

 

[GenemZ]

Can you be moral without God?

The only reason we see a sense of morality in nations that do not worship God? Is because Satan is in competition with God. Competing to try to prove his worthiness to rule mankind.

But, only God can know what true morality should be for man. For God alone knows what He intended man to behave like before man fell.

 

[JIMINZ]

Um... Not to be nitpicky (gross word by the way) but morality without God is nothing to celebrate because morality doesn't save. Unless somehow a person was born perfect, which would contradict Scripture, a person is only saved through Jesus - moral or not.

First off, the thread is not about Salvation, I answered the question as asked in the OP that is all, I made no claims beyond that.

I gave Scripture to back up my claim, I am re-posting it below, for your reading pleasure.

By the way, I was not celebrating Mortality without God, I was happy the person who opened the OP got what I was saying, that is all.

On the other hand, shouldn't we as Christians be happy for those people who have never heard the Gospel yet lead live that are moral and upright, and that in the final analysis God Himself can (Will) judge them by how they have lived.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

 

[Peter J Barban]

I think that some Christians are insecure in Christ (because a moral unbeliever is a threat to the weaker brother's eternal significance and security), so they believe that only Christians can be moral, or even understand morality.

 

[QvQ]

Yes, but the problem is convincing everyone else of that.

My Grandmother said, "Everyone goes to Hell in their own handbasket." She meant "everyone" could have their own handbasket of ideas of right and wrong from which they weave the fabric of their life. Then there is the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." The path to heaven is when God is the Word and Christ is the truth, the way and the life.
Man does not have the wisdom, experience or judgement to decide for himself what is right and wrong.

 

[GenemZ]

I think that some Christians are insecure in Christ (because a moral unbeliever is a threat to the weaker brother's eternal significance and security), so they believe that only Christians can be moral, or even understand morality.

Morality is for everyone. Both believers and unbelievers. Its the system devised by God for the stability of a people.

Morality therefore is not spiritual. Its human discipline. Unbelievers are also moral.

Virtue is only for believers. Unbelievers can not have virtue as God would have it. Virtue is found by believers who learn and obey how to remain filled with the Spirit, and as a result, desire to continuously be growing in sound doctrinal teaching.


Virtue is entering into the grace process from God of being transformed (by knowledge of the Word + filling of the Spirit) into the image of Christ!

Mere human morality could never produce the following which is only reserved for believers who truly desire to become a disciple of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate
the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-
increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:17-18​

Morality is for all. Not just the believer! Virtue is God's desire for the believer, which far exceeds mere morality.

Many a sect and cult may practice strict morality. But, they are bankrupt when it comes to walking in virtue.

Virtue will produce the some of the same results as morality overtly. But morality comes from a conscious effort and determination to not do certain things, and to do others. But when its virtue the behavior becomes automatic and with tranquility of soul.

Morality alone = legalism
Virtue = Grace at work in the believer. ​

grace and peace...

 

[Beanieboy]

"I was here first."
"I called it."
It's my turn."

These are how children, without running to the bible, understand fairness. Morals are not dependent on religion.

Why is it wrong to lie? It breaks trust, can end friendship, results in gossip and slander.

Why is it illegal to steal? Because people want legal protection to keep what they own.

I personally go by "am I loving my neighbor as I love myself?"

What puzzles me is people who insist on calling themselves Christian who don't follow Jesus. One would think that having Christ and the Spirit would change them, or at least attempt to follow Jesus as best they can.

I'm not talking about people like Jim Baker of PTL who was charged with fraud to get millions from viewers.

The people I'm talking about refuse to love their neighbor by repeatedly lying and spreading rumors, oppress others then play victim, accuse other religions of being evil but cry foul when someone says it of theirs, misquotes Scripture as Satan did to make it say what they want, usually to burden others or even vilify, will judge nonChristians which we are commanded not to do and which makes no sense, ignore every parable involving Pharasees and how not to behave.

Christ said all will know you are my disciples by the love you show one another.
And then a group of Christians will downplay that.
"Love is kind, love is gentle..." gets rebranded as Tough Love - you know, like what Fred Phelps does protesting a funeral. It's loving to discipline, they say, because it seems to be the only kind of love they can demonstrate.

Watch this video from Steven Anderson. He says gays are reprobate (unredeemable - God gave them up), they are all after your children as sexual predators (proven lie from studies), and that if he had a button that would kill a homosexual, he would press it until it broke. Yeah, sounds extreme, so he just hides behind misquoting Leviticus to think having murder in your heart is ok, and the lies? Maybe he says they aren't lies, just opinions?

So, I'm puzzled how without God, people weigh an issue. Does it harm anyone? If not, it is ok. If it harms another (adultery, stealing, murder), then it is wrong. And I would say they can apply that to all of life, ie the Bro Code where you don't date your buddy's ex.

With some religious people, they sometimes use the bible to justify violations of loving your neighbor. They redefine love. They find support for slavery. They claim discrimination is them just trying to practice their religion. Shouting at everyone that they are going to hell unless they repent is "sharing the love of Jesus", and no one buys it.

And I keep imagining these people before God, trying to explain themselves.

 

[Beanieboy]

My Grandmother said, "Everyone goes to Hell in their own handbasket." She meant "everyone" could have their own handbasket of ideas of right and wrong from which they weave the fabric of their life. Then there is the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." The path to heaven is when God is the Word and Christ is the truth, the way and the life.
Man does not have the wisdom, experience or judgement to decide for himself what is right and wrong.

s Paul says in Romans 2, “for when Gentiles (non-Jews) do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts(14-15, NKJV). ... And, we all prove it by doing what's in God's law without even knowing it.

 

[Cis.jd]

Can you be moral without God?

My experience in CF has convinced me to never argue about morality being evidence of God ever again.

There are so many here who are so "devout" (or just straight Bible fanatics) that they can't tell right from wrong. Many here have indirectly have shown morality to be useless.. "being good doesn't matter, you are still going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus". If that is the case, then why does it matter to be morally correct or not?

Now someone is going to quote that "there is no one good but God verse", and this will be a good example of what I am talking about.

I've seen people here advice battered wives that they are going to sin if they leave their husband. I've read comments about how "retards won't go to heaven, because there is no excuse for believing in Jesus". What's even worse is that these people would argue back with some comment about how they are of the Lord which is why all reason and evidence is meaningless against them.

 

[GenemZ]

My experience in CF has convinced me to never argue about morality being evidence of God ever again.

Let's keep is basic...

If there were no God? The following they needed to be told was immoral.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

 

[Cis.jd]

Let's keep is basic...

If there were no God? The following they needed to be told was immoral.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Do I believe our morality is designed by the Christian God, yes.. but I will never use it or see it as a compelling argument to use against a non-believer. Just thinking on the shoes of a non-believer, the morality argument isn't convincible evidence for the Christian God, just based on how Christians themselves have displayed such inability to understand what is right or wrong. What you listed from the 10 isn't exclusive to the Bible either. Lying, murder, adultery, stealing... these have been understood by many cultures since their ancient times.

 

[GenemZ]

Do I believe our morality is designed by the Christian God, yes.. but I will never use it or see it as a compelling argument to use against a non-believer. Just thinking on the shoes of a non-believer, the morality argument isn't convincible evidence for the Christian God, just based on how Christians themselves have displayed such inability to understand what is right or wrong. What you listed from the 10 isn't exclusive to the Bible either. Lying, murder, adultery, stealing... these have been understood by many cultures since their ancient times.

Christianity having influenced cultures and societies over the centuries... so that morality seems like a norm today for the unbeliever.

But, it was not always that way. The main reason the Jews had disdain for the "gentiles" was because of their amoral norms. Things you would never think existed.

Here is God's intro of his morality to His Chosen people....


“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices." Lev 18:2-3


What were the norms of the other nations that had not been influenced by God?


6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.

7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

 

[Cis.jd]

Christianity having influenced cultures and societies over the centuries... so that morality seems like a norm today for the unbeliever.

So what? Look at countries that didn't have Christianity such as Japan, South Korea, India, etc. Their Christian influences are minor, yet they also share the same social/legal views today.

Look at history with code of Hammurabi, the Maat, the 5 percepts. Not only do they share the same laws as to what you've posted, they also date around or before the same time.

Morality may be seen as an argument for a god, but right now it's not a good argument as evidence of the Christian God – not anymore and that is because of biblical fundamentalists.

You yourself have argued about how doing/being "good" doesn't get someone into heaven. The person could have had a charitable life and rarely judged someone negatively nor has been involved in any scandals.. yet if he doesn't accept/know Christ.

I will ask you a question, and I want this as a main priority in your response. What is your opinion on giving women in labor anesthesia?

 

[GenemZ]

So what? Look at countries that didn't have Christianity such as Japan, South Korea, India, etc. Their Christian influences are minor, yet they also share the same social/legal views today.

First of all. South Korea has a significant Christian population.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Christianity_in_Korea


Japan has been emulating the USA for some time now and enjoys studying our way of life.

India's morals was influenced by British rule that forced out brutal practices when it could.