Morality without God

[Cis.jd]

There have always at all times throughout Christianity been people who professed to be Christians who have misinterpreted Scripture, this isn’t new. I wonder when you think the moral argument went from being a good argument to a bad one?

Was it when slavery was seen as acceptable? Was it during the crusades? Was it during the reformation? Was it during a Church council? Was it during a war?
snip

Yes, many Christians misinterpreted scripture but those people actually do think they are the once aligned to what God says. Why should people take you on your word on what "leads to God" over theirs?

Also, Why do you keep ignore the links and sources I gave? These are for you to actually see what is going on so you have real knowledge of it, which you don't.
Did you not see the post where one guy (1st post of the thread) is arguing that it is almost noble for a wife to chose to be beaten to death then choosing to divorce, because God hates these divorce? Did you learn about Megan Phelps?

As for your question. It's actually CF that has convinced me it became a horrible argument. You have people here who think random magician performers in America's Got Talent to movies like Harry Potter are evil yet these are the same people who think nazi's who believe in Christ would go to heaven over the Jewish kids they burned in ovens.

I can explain to people why Christians are inconsistent, that’s not a problem. Your complaints about the moral argument are at the end of the day, actually all red herrings.

You have not looked at any of the links i gave, you chose to ignore most of my points so you really don't understand this situation at all. You don't know or want to know the reality of it so you stick to this affinity of yours.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[SPF]

people who think nazi's who believe in Christ would go to heaven over the Jewish kids they burned in ovens.

Well certainly one of the beautiful and unique parts of Christianity is that Scripture teaches that no amount of sin, or severity of sin is more powerful than the atoning and redeeming work of Christ. Thank goodness Salvation comes by grace, through faith, and not by works!

You have not looked at any of the links i gave, you chose to ignore most of my points so you really don't understand this situation at all. You don't know or want to know the reality of it so you stick to this affinity of yours.

You know what they say about people who assume, right?

It’s just more difficult to get me to follow red herrings and fallacious reasoning than most. So if I don’t comment on red herrings and fallacious thinking, it’s probably not because I’m not informed, it’s because you’re missing the point.

And indeed, you still seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature and purpose of the moral argument.

The moral argument will always be effective for the simple reason that the moral argument is objective and only goes so far as establishing a Moral Creator.

I really hope you believe that God is a moral God and that you feel capable of showing people who inquire how the God of the Bible lines up with the God established by the moral argument. As long as you can do that, you can be effective in utilizing the moral argument as evidence for Christianity.

 

[Cis.jd]

Well certainly one of the beautiful and unique parts of Christianity is that Scripture teaches that no amount of sin, or severity of sin is more powerful than the atoning and redeeming work of Christ. Thank goodness Salvation comes by grace, through faith, and not by works!

What are you exactly trying to say here in response to my post referencing posters here who think, based on their understanding of scripture of Nazi's?

You know what they say about people who assume, right?

It’s just more difficult to get me to follow red herrings and fallacious reasoning than most. So if I don’t comment on red herrings and fallacious thinking, it’s probably not because I’m not informed, it’s because you’re missing the point.

But the point you said earlier "The God established by the moral argument will always align with what Scripture teaches about God". However, everyone claims "this is what scripture says. I've shown you this with the links and Megan Phelps. Thing is, you have no intellectual integrity and you just ignore them.

And indeed, you still seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature and purpose of the moral argument.

The moral argument will always be effective for the simple reason that the moral argument is objective and only goes so far as establishing a Moral Creator.

I really hope you believe that God is a moral God and that you feel capable of showing people who inquire how the God of the Bible lines up with the God established by the moral argument. As long as you can do that, you can be effective in utilizing the moral argument as evidence for Christianity.

You are moving away from the context again. No one is arguing that the moral argument is good when it comes to discussing a moral creator. We are being specific.

I believe God is a moral God, i've said this in post #199. This isn't about what I believe, this just being honest that the moral God as a form of debate in favor of the Judeo-Christian God is a horrible argument. How are you going to convince someone who is a Buddhist or Jainist that your God is real and morality is (or one of) the things that proves it, especially when you said "the moral argument could be used to discredit the religion".

 

[SPF]

What are you exactly trying to say here in response to my post referencing posters here who think, based on their understanding of scripture of Nazi's?

My comments were directed to YOU because you said:

nazi's who believe in Christ would go to heaven over the Jewish kids they burned in ovens.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounded like you were attempting to say that Nazi’s who repented, believed in Christ, and turned from their sin would somehow have less of a chance of going to heaven than a Jewish person who died a tragic death, yet didn’t know Christ.

Hopefully you recognize and believe that Salvation comes by way of grace, through faith, and not by works to all who call upon the name of the Lord.

As tragic and horrible and wrong are a lot of murders in this world, people who are murdered don’t somehow earn a free ticket to heaven. But I’m sure you already know that.

But the point you said earlier "The God established by the moral argument will always align with what Scripture teaches about God". However, everyone claims "this is what scripture says. I've shown you this with the links and Megan Phelps. Thing is, you have no intellectual integrity and you just ignore them.

Just FYI, your continued uncharitable slights don’t help aid you in this conversation. They’re certainly not said out of love.

But as for the content of what I said earlier, I was certainly correct. The moral argument works because the premises are true and lead to a valid and logical conclusion. If the moral argument is true, then the God it establishes must actually exist.

As Christians, we know that Scripture presents us with the True God, and we can see many of His attributes in Scripture. Therefore, the moral argument will ALWAYS support God as revealed in Scripture.

And again, I’m not responsible for anyone but myself. As I feel that I have a good grasp on the moral argument and God’s character as revealed in Scripture, I feel confident that I can use the moral argument to support the God of the Bible.

If the person I was engaged in conversation with brought up a person or a group of persons who espoused some belief that was clearly contradictory with God’s moral character, then guess what - I would tell them that, and I would demonstrate to the person I was talking with why God wasn’t like what they were told.

Remember, Truth is never wrong, and as Scripture is inspired by the Spirit, it does lime up with reality. So sure, there are Christians who are wrong about a lot of things, but as long as I know the Word, then I can demonstrate the truth to those I’m engaged with in conversation.

In the same way if a non-Christian was talking to you about this topic, hopefully you could do the same thing and assure them that God IS moral, and perfect, and good, and just, and loving, and forgiving, and hopefully you could demonstrate where needed how the moral argument does line up with the God of Scripture.

How are you going to convince someone who is a Buddhist or Jainist that your God is real and morality is (or one of) the things that proves it, especially when you said "the moral argument could be used to discredit the religion".

The moral argument isn’t some end all argument that proves Christianity, indeed I’ve said multiple times now it doesn’t. The answer is I wouldn’t use the moral argument to prove Christianity. Christ proves Christianity.

 

[Cis.jd]

My comments were directed to YOU because you saidlease correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounded like you were attempting to say that Nazi’s who repented, believed in Christ, and turned from their sin would somehow have less of a chance of going to heaven than a Jewish person who died a tragic death, yet didn’t know Christ.

No, see that is why you are supposed to look at the links and everything I have given here. You are guessing and replying out of context. Please, take the need of having some intellectual integrity seriously.

As tragic and horrible and wrong are a lot of murders in this world, people who are murdered don’t somehow earn a free ticket to heaven. But I’m sure you already know that.

Catholics and Orthodox believe in a state of limbo (purgatory) prior to heaven and earth.

But as for the content of what I said earlier, I was certainly correct. The moral argument works because the premises are true and lead to a valid and logical conclusion. If the moral argument is true, then the God it establishes must actually exist.

How can you be correct when you refused to look at any of the evidences I posted here and just went on replying? Everything you've said is all creative writing right now.

As Christians, we know that Scripture presents us with the True God, and we can see many of His attributes in Scripture. Therefore, the moral argument will ALWAYS support God as revealed in Scripture.

Ok, so does the view of: is it more moral for a wife to chose to get beaten to death than leaving the husband? Because the christian stating this claims it's what scripture commands?

The moral argument isn’t some end all argument that proves Christianity, indeed I’ve said multiple times now it doesn’t. The answer is I wouldn’t use the moral argument to prove Christianity. Christ proves Christianity.

Well, that is my entire argument. The Moral argument isn't an argument -it's a horrible argument- for any christian to use as evidence for his/her faith.

 

[SPF]

Well, that is my entire argument. The Moral argument isn't an argument -it's a horrible argument- for any christian to use as evidence for his/her faith.

Well you’re of course entitled to your opinion. I certainly hope if your non-believing neighbor were to tell you that he wasn’t a Christian because Christians are immoral that you would have the capacity to help him understand that the God of the Bible was a perfectly good, immutable in character being and that the behavior of Christians wasn’t a reflection upon the character of God, but instead was a reflection upon the reality of a fallen world.