Modern Day Christmas has turned into a joke.

[prodromos]

websites, books, literature, videos, sermons, etc. etc. - take your pick

I'll stick to primary sources thanks.

 

[Oldmantook]

I'll stick to primary sources thanks.

That would be occultic material. Thanks. Or you can look up Charles Spurgeon's last sermon on the topic of Christmas. How's that for a primary source??

 

[Oldmantook]

It's only a "problem" if you dwell on it and make it so.

yeah right and ignorance is bliss.

 

[prodromos]

That would be occultic material. Thanks. Or you can look up Charles Spurgeon's last sermon on the topic of Christmas. How's that for a primary source??

No, I'm speaking of how the Church came to choose which day to celebrate the birth of Christ. The feast day of the Annunciation of Mary had already been established on March 25, as this is a much more significant event in terms of our salvation than Christ's birth, since this was the moment God became man. Some regions of the Church had already begun celebrating the birth of Christ, but it was combined with the Feast of Epiphany, Christ's baptism, when all three persons of the Holy Trinity were witnessed by those present, and the Church deemed it worthy to establish its own feast day which was set 9 months after the day celebrating His conception. The same is true for the feast days celebrating the conception and subsequent birth of John the Forerunner (Sep 23 & Jun 24) as well as Mary (Dec 9 & Sep 8), nine months. Nothing pagan behind the choice, just the steady development of the liturgical calendar, eventually sanctifying every day of the year.

 

[whereloveandmercymeet]

I don’t worship my Christmas tree anymore than I worship my orchids.

There’s a lot of what I do around Christmas that’s not ‘Christian’. But those things aren’t ‘unchristian’ either, and they don’t take away from the Christian parts. Having a ‘traditional’ Christmas dinner doesn’t take away from the fact I’ve just been to church. It doesn’t cancel out.

I think if you don’t like the secular traditions associated with Christmas, don’t do them, but just because someone has a tree or other things doesn’t suddenly make them a secret pagan unless they start worshipping it.

 

[Albion]

That is ludicrous. Did God or Jesus ever command us to "compete against them?"

I simply was keeping the historic record correct. That is what the church did, like it or not. She did not accommodate the pagan celebrations as had been claimed.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christmas is what you make of it. I think there's an aesthetic charm to the secular version but that doesn't replace a meaningful advent or us reflecting on the incarnation. If you hate the secular version practice the real Christmas/Advent. Fast, read books on the incarnation, go to Church and be generous like Saint Nicholas.

 

[JacksBratt]

You are free to do as you please. I don't really care.

Isn't that great? We live in countries that we can do just that..
God bless.

 

[JacksBratt]

yeah right and ignorance is bliss.

I love it when people say this.. I never know if they are referring to themselves or the poster that they are quoting.....

This door... it swings both ways...

 

[messianist]

Thousands of Christians will be playing Santa clause lying to there kids and others and trying to convince people they are celebrating the birth of the Messiah

 

[Ing Bee]

Christmas has always been a joke. It’s a pagan holiday, always has been, and always will be

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Messiah of Israel - even for Christians celebrating it as the birth of the Messiah, it’s a vain tradition that’s abominable in the eyes of God

Hi Dkh587-

This claim you make was recently popularized in the conspiracy theory "documentary" Zietgeist (2007) which in turn was referenced by Bill Maher in Religulous (2008). However actual historical documentation is lacking. Here's a video about that in which several prime source documents are referenced.

Here is an article from Touchstone magazine by William J. Tighe that lays out some of the difficulties with this claim in regards to the December 25th date.

There is certainly some evidence that elements of Saturnalia became included in English celebrations (see "Lord of Misrule" in Wikipedia) which is one reason that the Puritan settlers in America banned Christmas celebration. However, even then, the Christian elements of charity and generosity to the poor were completely foreign to Saturnalia. Additionally, Christmas celebration was not uniform throughout Europe

Could you provide some Prime Source documentation for this claim? That's the best way to clarify these kind of discussions.

Thanks.

-Ing Bee

 

[Oldmantook]

I simply was keeping the historic record correct. That is what the church did, like it or not. She did not accommodate the pagan celebrations as had been claimed.

Indeed that was what the church did on order accommodate. She did not separate did she? Yes or no?Instead she embraced by co-mingling with pagan religions. That is what the history of the Roman Catholic church shows. It is called syncretized religion. Why do you think even today people who convert to Roman Catholicism do not give up their native religious beliefs/rituals? The Roman Catholic church and Constantine accommodated. Centuries later, Protestants have also accommodated. That sir is a fact.

 

[Oldmantook]

Isn't that great? We live in countries that we can do just that..
God bless.

Indeed we can agree to disagree.

 

[Oldmantook]

I love it when people say this.. I never know if they are referring to themselves or the poster that they are quoting.....

This door... it swings both ways...

Indeed it does. You watch your back and I'll watch mine.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thousands of Christians will be playing Santa clause lying to there kids and others and trying to convince people they are celebrating the birth of the Messiah

If they're lying to their kids, that's their business.
You don't know their motives, or if they are trying to convince anyone they are celebrating the birth of the Messiah.
They might not even believe in Jesus, but see going to church as a "nice" thing to do at Christmas. At least while they are they they have a chance to hear the Gospel.

 

[Not David]

Indeed that was what the church did on order accommodate. She did not separate did she? Yes or no?Instead she embraced by co-mingling with pagan religions. That is what the history of the Roman Catholic church shows. It is called syncretized religion. Why do you think even today people who convert to Roman Catholicism do not give up their native religious beliefs/rituals? The Roman Catholic church and Constantine accommodated. Centuries later, Protestants have also accommodated. That sir is a fact.

Except they needed to believe in the Catholic faith to be part of the Church.

 

[prodromos]

Indeed that was what the church did on order accommodate. She did not separate did she? Yes or no?Instead she embraced by co-mingling with pagan religions. That is what the history of the Roman Catholic church shows. It is called syncretized religion. Why do you think even today people who convert to Roman Catholicism do not give up their native religious beliefs/rituals? The Roman Catholic church and Constantine accommodated. Centuries later, Protestants have also accommodated. That sir is a fact.

When you make such a claim about Constantine, which in fact has no historical basis, that is when I know that your choice of websites, books, literature, videos, sermons, etc. are just parroting the same false claims.

 

[RDKirk]

There is quite a bit of evidence that the Christian Church took over existing pagan holidays and relabeled the pagan holidays by reworking them and refashioning them in their image.

Excerpt from the article: Christmas - New World Encyclopedia

The historical development of Christmas is quite fascinating. According to the Bible, Jesus' birth was celebrated by many well-wishers including the Magi who came bearing gifts. The early Christians in the Roman Empire wished to continue this practice but found that celebrating Jesus' birth was very dangerous under Roman rule, where being a Christian could be punishable by death. Thus, Christians began to celebrate Christ’s birthday on December 25, which was already an important pagan festival, in order to safely adapt to Roman customs while still honoring Jesus' birth.

This is how Christmas came to be celebrated on the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, and it was from the pagan holiday that many of the customs of Christmas had their roots. The celebrations of Saturnalia included the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia). This holiday was observed over a series of days beginning on December 17 (the birthday of Saturn), and ending on December 25 (the birthday of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun"). The combined festivals resulted in an extended winter holiday season. Business was postponed and even slaves feasted. There was drinking, gambling and singing, and nudity was relatively common. It was the "best of days," according to the poet Catullus.[3]

The feast of Sol Invictus on December 25 was a sacred day in the religion of Mithraism, which was widespread in the Roman Empire. Its god, Mithras, was a solar deity of Persian origin, identified with the Sun. It displayed its unconquerability as "Sol Invictus" when it began to rise higher in the sky following the Winter Solstice—hence December 25 was celebrated as the Sun's birthday. In 274 C.E., Emperor Aurelian officially designated December 25 as the festival of Sol Invictus.

Evidence that early Christians were observing December 25 as Jesus' birthday comes from Sextus Julius Africanus's book Chronographiai (221 C.E.), an early reference book for Christians. Yet from the first, identification of Christ's birth with a pagan holiday was controversial. The theologian Origen, writing in 245 C.E., denounced the idea of celebrating the birthday of Jesus "as if he were a king pharaoh." Thus Christmas was celebrated with a mixture of Christian and secular customs from the beginning, and remains so to this day.

* I recommend reading the rest of the article on its original site*

I don't think it can be said that Christianity took over the holiday from Mithraism because the pagan religions enjoyed nearly a century of free, unfettered practice along side Christianity's free and unfettered practice. That would be like saying the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection took over Passover.

That doesn't mean there wasn't friction between the believers of the "old religions" and Christians (as there is now in Hawaii, for example). The emperor was legally pontifex maximus (high priest) over all legal religions of the empire, including both Mithaism and Christianity, and had to treat all of them with respect--which meant treading the politics of all of them.

Christianity was the unpopular new religion. It was unpopular because emperors had spent a couple of hundred years vilifying it, and it was mostly unpopular because it was "atheist." One never saw those Christians actually publicly worshiping any gods.

But what if...what if Christians had a major public holy day that just happened to coincide with those of most of the major pagan religions? That would show that Christians weren't atheists, and yet it would not require Christians to sacrifice to any of the pagan gods.

What a dandy realpolitik solution! And I think that's what happened. Holidays were created out of actual Christian concepts that happened to coincide with the holy days of the pagans for political reasons.

Back in the 80s, politically correct secularists in America tried to do the same thing to Hanukkah. In order to avoid offending Jews while everyone else was celebrating Christmas (religiously and secularly), the PC crowd started boosting Hanukkah into equality with Christmas.

Jews, however, put a stop to that. "We'll not have gentiles telling us which of our holy days is most important. Thanks for the concern, but no."

 

[jmldn2]

Speak for yourself, I love celebrating the birth of my Lord.

So do I.

 

[JacksBratt]

yeah right and ignorance is bliss.

I don't think it has anything to do with "ignorance". People who know... don't care.

This is different than people who are unaware...

But.... nice cliche.... to bad it wasn't relevant here.