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Modern Day Christmas has turned into a joke.

Albion

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In reality we do not know when Jesus was born—neither the year, the month, nor the day. The chronology of our western calendar is based on mythology masquerading as theology. We do well to treat it all with the humour it deserves.
This can be settled in short order for anyone who cares to hear it. We do not know the date of Christs birth, that's true. Any Christian who is interested in church history knows this and acknowledges it. So we arbitrarily choose a date (and, BTW, some Christian churches choose another one) on which to commemorate or celebrate the event--not to assert that this is for certain the historically correct day.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Sorry but that verse has been quoted, out of context, on many anti Christmas threads.
If you bow down and worship your Christmas tree, making an idol of it and giving it more glory than God - fair enough. Otherwise, it's not relevant.

And that's the same old excuse I've read in many anti-Christmas threads too.
 
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Albion

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You should really have a read up on Saturnalia because it is a old Roman festival before Christmas and was celebrated at a similar time. Very similar to Christmas.

And also read up Sol Invictus which happens to have a birthday of Dec 25.
Heres a question--

October 8 is now declared, in some communities, to be Indigenous Peoples Day. It is the same day we have formerly known as Columbus Day. Is it a derivative of Columbus Day along with all that he stood for? Is it just the same idea but with a new name?

Or, is it about something else?
 
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Shiloh Raven

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I dont think many Christians even know what they are truly celebrating on Christmas now.

Its not the birth of Christ, if it is, they are making a total mockery of his birth.

The day has now turned in a commercial retail holiday, in which Santa Claus is greater than Jesus and these same merchants that dont care and probably dont even believe in Jesus have no problem selling Christians all sorts of junk, making them rich, and sending them into debt they will probably be paying off til the next Xmas, and all this sales on on the basis of a lie of Jesus birthday being Dec 25th.

Merry Christmas will probably offend or get a person almost fired from their job, and a nativity scene is almost pretty much a no now adays.

Christmas trees, Elves, reindeer, a fat man going down your chimney, mistletoe, and yule logs have zero to do with Christ and are all based on Pagan sungod worship, yet many Christians that claim the day is about Jesus for them, all have some or all of these symbols as part of their Christmas celebration.

Starting to think God probably hates our modern day Christmas.

You forgot the imaginary infamous 'War on Christmas' when many Christians get all upset that Star Bucks doesn't have 'Merry Christmas' written on their holiday cups and some store employees dare to say 'Happy Holidays!' instead of 'Merry Christmas!' Did you know that there are five other religious holidays that are celebrated in December other than Christmas? I don't mind hearing 'Happy Holidays' because it recognizes the other religious holidays that are celebrated during December too.

Happy Holidays! Celebrating December Holidays Around the World
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Heres a question--

October 8 is now declared, in some communities, to be Native Peoples Day (or something like that). It is the same day as we have
known as Columbus Day. Is it a derivative of Columbus Day along with all that he stood for? Is it just the same idea but with a new name?

Or, is it about something else?

It's Indigneous Peoples' Day. And what exactly did Columbus stand for when he never actually stepped foot on the North American continent? I know he stood for slavery and mass murder.

Top 5 atrocities committed by Christopher Columbus

9 reasons Christopher Columbus was a murderer, tyrant, and scoundrel
 
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Strong in Him

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And that's the same old excuse I've read in many anti-Christmas threads too.

Not an excuse; it's not relevant.

Jeremiah 10:2-4
"They [the nations] cut a tree from the forest "
Some people have a real Christmas tree; many don't.
"and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel,"
Shapes it into what? If you buy a real tree from a supermarket, you take it home and stick it in a tub/bucket. It doesn't need to be shaped into anything - it's a tree. If you trim it slightly, you use scissors, not a chisel.
"They adorn it with silver and gold"
Silver and gold coloured decorations, maybe - or red and green, pink and white, blue and silver, or anything really. Probably made from paper/plastic rater than precious metal, especially if your kinds have made them.
"They fasten it with a hammer and nails"
I suppose some people may choose to nail their tree to a wall of their house; most don't.
"So that it will not totter."
A tree that has a firm base and is standing in a house with no wind blowing through it, will not totter. It may fall prey to cats, dogs or toddlers, but is unlikely to fall over all by itself.

Jeremiah was telling Israel not to be like other nations who worshipped many gods - and whose silversmiths no doubt made a fortune from creating individual models of these gods. Israel had one God - as per the first commandment. They were God's holy people, and were not to engage in idol worship.
 
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Albion

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Even if I thought that the trend you are referring to was a good idea, SR, it is still not incorrect to see it as aimed at diminishing the celebration of Christmas. And if that is called by some a kind of 'War on Christmas,' that's reasonable.
 
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Albion

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It's Indigneous Peoples' Day. And what exactly did Columbus stand for when he never actually stepped foot on the North American continent? I know he stood for slavery and mass murder.
I was asking for an answer to the questions I posed.
 
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FenderTL5

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You forgot the imaginary infamous 'War on Christmas' when many Christians get all upset that Star Bucks doesn't have 'Merry Christmas' written on their holiday cups and some store employees dare to say 'Happy Holidays!' instead of 'Merry Christmas!' Did you know that there are five other religious holidays that are celebrated in December other than Christmas? I don't mind hearing 'Happy Holidays' because it recognizes the other religious holidays that are celebrated during December too.

Happy Holidays! Celebrating December Holidays Around the World
further..

If we speak of Christianity alone, ignoring all other religions entirely and also ignoring the civic holiday of New Year (USA); there are twelve feast days between the Nativity (Dec 25) and Theophany (Jan 6) with numerous commemorations, one leading into the next.
the song "Twelve Days of Christmas" harkens back to twelfth night celebrations where it was most likely used as a memory game for children trying to stay awake during vigil.

Happy Holidays (Holy Days) seems as appropriate as anything else to me, ymmv.
 
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Oldmantook

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I dont think many Christians even know what they are truly celebrating on Christmas now.

Its not the birth of Christ, if it is, they are making a total mockery of his birth.

The day has now turned in a commercial retail holiday, in which Santa Claus is greater than Jesus and these same merchants that dont care and probably dont even believe in Jesus have no problem selling Christians all sorts of junk, making them rich, and sending them into debt they will probably be paying off til the next Xmas, and all this sales on on the basis of a lie of Jesus birthday being Dec 25th.

Merry Christmas will probably offend or get a person almost fired from their job, and a nativity scene is almost pretty much a no now adays.

Christmas trees, Elves, reindeer, a fat man going down your chimney, mistletoe, and yule logs have zero to do with Christ and are all based on Pagan sungod worship, yet many Christians that claim the day is about Jesus for them, all have some or all of these symbols as part of their Christmas celebration.

Starting to think God probably hates our modern day Christmas.
Yes after all, it is a pagan/occult holy day (holiday) claimed to be redeemed by Christians repackaged as the birth of Christ and therefore participated in. Problem is that throughout Scripture we are repeatedly commanded not to mix pagan practices with following God and not to allow the leaven of sin into our midst. That's what Christmas is. That is like participating in a tarot card session and just changing the name to destiny cards to justify the practice.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Yes after all, it is a pagan/occult holy day (holiday) claimed to be redeemed by Christians repackaged as the birth of Christ and therefore participated in. Problem is that throughout Scripture we are repeatedly commanded not to mix pagan practices with following God and not to allow the leaven of sin into our midst. That's what Christmas is. That is like participating in a tarot card session and just changing the name to destiny cards to justify the practice.

Well said, especially your last sentence. That's spot on, IMO.
 
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Albion

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Yes after all, it is a pagan/occult holy day (holiday) claimed to be redeemed by Christians repackaged as the birth of Christ and therefore participated in.

Not so. There is no evidence that the Christian church claimed to have taken over the existing pagan holiday, reworked it, refashioned it, or anything of the sort..
 
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Shiloh Raven

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There is quite a bit of evidence that the Christian Church took over existing pagan holidays and relabeled the pagan holidays by reworking them and refashioning them in their image.

Excerpt from the article: Christmas - New World Encyclopedia

The historical development of Christmas is quite fascinating. According to the Bible, Jesus' birth was celebrated by many well-wishers including the Magi who came bearing gifts. The early Christians in the Roman Empire wished to continue this practice but found that celebrating Jesus' birth was very dangerous under Roman rule, where being a Christian could be punishable by death. Thus, Christians began to celebrate Christ’s birthday on December 25, which was already an important pagan festival, in order to safely adapt to Roman customs while still honoring Jesus' birth.

This is how Christmas came to be celebrated on the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, and it was from the pagan holiday that many of the customs of Christmas had their roots. The celebrations of Saturnalia included the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia). This holiday was observed over a series of days beginning on December 17 (the birthday of Saturn), and ending on December 25 (the birthday of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun"). The combined festivals resulted in an extended winter holiday season. Business was postponed and even slaves feasted. There was drinking, gambling and singing, and nudity was relatively common. It was the "best of days," according to the poet Catullus.[3]

The feast of Sol Invictus on December 25 was a sacred day in the religion of Mithraism, which was widespread in the Roman Empire. Its god, Mithras, was a solar deity of Persian origin, identified with the Sun. It displayed its unconquerability as "Sol Invictus" when it began to rise higher in the sky following the Winter Solstice—hence December 25 was celebrated as the Sun's birthday. In 274 C.E., Emperor Aurelian officially designated December 25 as the festival of Sol Invictus.

Evidence that early Christians were observing December 25 as Jesus' birthday comes from Sextus Julius Africanus's book Chronographiai (221 C.E.), an early reference book for Christians. Yet from the first, identification of Christ's birth with a pagan holiday was controversial. The theologian Origen, writing in 245 C.E., denounced the idea of celebrating the birthday of Jesus "as if he were a king pharaoh." Thus Christmas was celebrated with a mixture of Christian and secular customs from the beginning, and remains so to this day.

* I recommend reading the rest of the article on its original site*
 
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Albion

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There is quite a bit of evidence that the Christian Church took over existing pagan holidays and relabeled the pagan holidays by reworking them and refashioning them in their image.
Excerpt from the article: Christmas - New World Encyclopedia

The historical development of Christmas is quite fascinating. According to the Bible, Jesus' birth was celebrated by many well-wishers including the Magi who came bearing gifts. The early Christians in the Roman Empire wished to continue this practice but found that celebrating Jesus' birth was very dangerous under Roman rule, where being a Christian could be punishable by death. Thus, Christians began to celebrate Christ’s birthday on December 25, which was already an important pagan festival, in order to safely adapt to Roman customs while still honoring Jesus' birth.
Take note that this wording--from your own choice of sources--does not say what you said at the top and does not agree with it.
 
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FenderTL5

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Not so. There is no evidence that the Christian church claimed to have taken over the existing pagan holiday, reworked it, refashioned it, or anything of the sort..
I agree wholeheartedly.
To your earlier comment...
This can be settled in short order for anyone who cares to hear it. We do not know the date of Christs birth, that's true. Any Christian who is interested in church history knows this and acknowledges it. So we arbitrarily choose a date (and, BTW, some Christian churches choose another one) on which to commemorate or celebrate the event--not to assert that this is for certain the historically correct day.
... I would have a tempered agreement. I agree we do not know the exact date and the date chosen could be off.
otoh, the date was not chosen arbitrarily. The Church already celebrated the Annunciation on March 25. The date of the Nativity was assigned 9 months later.
 
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Oldmantook

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Not so. There is no evidence that the Christian church claimed to have taken over the existing pagan holiday, reworked it, refashioned it, or anything of the sort..
There is an overwhelming abundance of evidence. Is your reply based on any research of your own??
 
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Oldmantook

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Albion

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I agree wholeheartedly.
To your earlier comment...

... I would have a tempered agreement. I agree we do not know the exact date and the date chosen could be off.
otoh, the date was not chosen arbitrarily. The Church already celebrated the Annunciation on March 25. The date of the Nativity was assigned 9 months later.
You are correct about that. The day was not pulled out of a hat, as it were. There were reasons for selecting that date, including some that were very much a part of Christian, not pagan, history. So to that extent it was not purely an arbitrary choice. There were and are a number of reasons why another date would might make as much sense as the day chosen by the church, and this is what I was attempting to say. However, I thought it not worth going into such detail in that post. :)
 
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FenderTL5

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You are correct about that. The day was not pulled out of a hat, as it were. There were reasons for selecting that date, including some that were very much a part of Christian, not pagan, history. So to that extent it was not purely an arbitrary choice. There were and are a number of reasons why another date would might make as much sense as the day chosen by the church, and this is what I was attempting to say. However, I thought it not worth going into such detail in that post. :)
my apologies if I pushed in an unintended direction.
:)

I also thought your point (quoted below) is spot on.
Heres a question--

October 8 is now declared, in some communities, to be Indigenous Peoples Day. It is the same day we have formerly known as Columbus Day. Is it a derivative of Columbus Day along with all that he stood for? Is it just the same idea but with a new name?

Or, is it about something else?
My birthday is celebrated in mid February. I suppose this must mean that my parents chose that day to celebrate my birth because they wanted to associate my birth with the customs of Valentines Day.
 
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