Moderate Lutheran Churches

[Zoness]

What I have noticed in all denominations I have visited yet is polarization yes but I have also seen more "congregationalism", not used in the same sense as the movement or denominations but more like congregations following less rigid governmental structures and kind of doing their own thing based on local culture and political/theological persuasion. Since I would only predict that this is the beginning of this trend I would say in most locations you see it in only very tiny degrees but I think churches of all denominations (except probably RC/EO/OO) will start to be more free form and function more as a confederacy under their denominational head as opposed to a monarchy or a republic, if you understand what I am saying.

 

[DaRev]

On the other hand, there are a number of younger ministers who are more and more catholic (in the good sense of the word)--they are more liturgical and practice more frequent communion in their churches. So perhaps what is bad in the LCMS has gotten worse and worse and what is good has gotten better and better.

Das ist wahr. The seminaries in more recent years have been more in line with traditional Confessional "catholic" Lutheran practice and teaching than in years past.

In my former congregation I was chastized by the elders for "insisting on doing things the 'right way'" instead of how "they had always done things" there. I was flabergasted at that comment. My predecessor there was the same way, which is why they refuse to call another seminary grad to fill their vacancy. They are of the opinion that the seminaries are "out of touch with reality" in regards to the Church.

Personally, I believe much of the laity is out of touch with the Church due mainly in part to rogue pastors in previous years who either failed or simply refused to teach orthodox Confessional Lutheran catachesis. They now believe that they dictate theology and practice instead of Scripture and the Confessions.

 

[RadMan]

Das ist wahr. The seminaries in more recent years have been more in line with traditional Confessional "catholic" Lutheran practice and teaching than in years past.

In my former congregation I was chastized by the elders for "insisting on doing things the 'right way'" instead of how "they had always done things" there. I was flabergasted at that comment. My predecessor there was the same way, which is why they refuse to call another seminary grad to fill their vacancy. They are of the opinion that the seminaries are "out of touch with reality" in regards to the Church.

Personally, I believe much of the laity is out of touch with the Church due mainly in part to rogue pastors in previous years who either failed or simply refused to teach orthodox Confessional Lutheran catachesis. They now believe that they dictate theology and practice instead of Scripture and the Confessions.

Even though you supposedly recognize the errancies of ministers in the church and how it has affected the laity. You still leave your last sentence hanging like it's somehow still the laity's fault.

The last fifty years has seen the same thing in the medical community that has affected the Lutheran Church, and that is pastors with God complexes. The pastors have enjoyed the phenomenon and are loath to cast off the mantle. Because of this there has been much heterodox brought into the Lutheran Church and now each synod is suffering from it. The checks and balances that should have been there through scrutiny by "equipped" laity were absent. They weren't equipped. The only ones monitoring the insurgences where the pastors themselves and they were only as good as their own determination to succeed. If the determination as a group was absent then the scales would be tipped as we have seen in the take-over of Keischnicks regime. A seesaw back and forth between liberal and conservative. Unfortunately many conservatives threw up there hands in favor of "getting along" and not breaking the eight commandment.

 

[DaRev]

Even though you supposedly recognize the errancies of ministers in the church and how it has affected the laity. You still leave your last sentence hanging like it's somehow still the laity's fault.

It's tough to correct someone when they are convinced that they're right. It becomes even tougher when congregations feel they have control over God's call by doing things like voting to close and then not closing just to get rid of the pastor. If he was truly doing something wrong, there are procedures for the congregation to follow. I've seen some congregations with "God complexes." The real question then becomes, 'when does this vicious cycle end? And how do we end it?'

 

[RadMan]

If I, or any conservative knew how, we wouldn't be discussing it right now. We can rehash ad infinitum but it wouldn't accomplish anything. We have much infighting even among our conservative groups and, to top it off, we have infiltrators from the liberal side disguised as conservative confessionals twisting the truth just enough to make it look right.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It becomes even tougher when congregations feel they have control over God's call by doing things like voting to close and then not closing just to get rid of the pastor.

When such things happened in the past, the DP would put the congregation under the ban for a period of time. In one particular congregation, they were not allowed to call a Pastor for two years. It straightened them right out, and they are now a strong Church with a very Confessional Pastor (who is our Circuit Counselor). From what I have been seeing lately, DPs seem not to have the desire or the will to take action of any kind. We really need Bishops that are Bishops.

 

[Studeclunker]

I'd be interested in knowing where you see the LCMS "treading the same path" toward the ordination of women or homosexuals.

I never intimated or suggested any such thing. I was speaking of the lack of sound theology and doctrine. You've misunderstood and mis-quoted me.

In my short time with the LCMS I didn't see that either, women and homosexuals...definitely not on the ordination list there.

I was involved with the ELCA at it's foundation. With the LCMS for well over fifteen years, and neither have I. That wasn't what I was speaking of.

Maybe by treading the same path he meant the path of losing the Lutheran identity. Most new LCMS congregations look exactly like evangelical/non-denom churches. As the ELCA becomes more and more Methodist, the LCMS becomes more and more Baptist...I've heard that quote from some where but it unfortunatley is starting to become true with Ablaze. The timeless example of Jefferson Hills in St. Louis, if it looks and smell non-denom it is.

LOL! I love it when someone answers my question far and away better than I'm inclined to. Very well said, thank you.

Professor Jaroslav Pelikan (now deceased), one of the world's leading authorities on church history, said it when he became Orthodox. He was originally LCMS, then ELCA, then Orthodox.

Well, the ELCA/Methodist and LCMS/Baptist comparisons are really quite something to think about. Actually, I'd compare where the LCMS going as something like Calvary Chapel. though Ablaze has a Pentecostal flavour to it. I'll have to look up Mr. Pelican's writings. Thank you.

Great point! I myself can't wait to become ordained within the LCMS, and I would be adding on to the catholic element!

Excellent! We need more young men like you!

Earlier by Zoness:

Unfortunately I don't know if Lutheranism is for me...I'm sure there are a bunch of loving people but I'm just not part of the community...I wasn't born into it, I don't have a lot of the ethnic background and the churches that follow the bible the closest are very exclusive (heh isnt any church?). Thanks for all of the help so far still!

Well kiddo, I'll tell you what I astounded my daughter with. I don't care what denomination you belong to. As long as you regularly attend church and are a child of Christ, I'll see you in the Lord's presence. That's enough for me. The only treasures we can take from this world are our loved ones as well as our brothers and sisters in Christ. Naked into the world we come and naked shall we leave. Just stay away from the trap of the JWs, the cults, and the Mormons.

As my friend George so succinctly puts it, "Well, from one refugee to another, don't get too very stressed over it."

My complaint is that each denomination exists within a fairly limited sphere of belief and practice. Reshaping that sphere into that of another denomniation is dishonest, or Nihilism, which is worse.

By the by, I find that Lutherans aren't the only ones suffering from the predations of the liberal left. All of the denominations are being troubled with this. The left insists on the right giving way and never gives way to anything themselves.

 

[DaRev]

I never intimated or suggested any such thing. I was speaking of the lack of sound theology and doctrine. You've misunderstood and mis-quoted me.

I most likely misread your post. I do apologize.

Well, the ELCA/Methodist and LCMS/Baptist comparisons are really quite something to think about. Actually, I'd compare where the LCMS going as something like Calvary Chapel. though Ablaze has a Pentecostal flavour to it. I'll have to look up Mr. Pelican's writings. Thank you.

The phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies with to perception of the LCMS. Although I truly believe there is an element within the synod that has "baptist/non-denom" leanings (that may be reflected in the synod leadership), I do not believe that it applies to a majority of the synod. It's just that those who do tend to lean that way get the vast majority of the attention from the ultra-right within and from outside the synod.

 

[wildboar]

From various statements that I've heard from people it seems that in the past the more theologically conservative ministers also tended to be less liturgical, but in more recent years the opposite is true. My pastor said that a good rule of thumb is that if an older minister is wearing full vestments he's probably a flaming liberal but if he's younger and he's wearing full vestments he's probably very theologically conservative.

Our first daughter was born to us on January 13th and Lord willing will be baptized on the 25th. Our pastor is going to use Luther's revised service with the exorcism and sealing with oil. I'd like to see the Baptist church where that's going on.

I do think the whole church growth thing within the LCMS will eventually backfire. It can only last so long. There are a number of non-denominational churches that can carry out those church growth plans far better than any LCMS church can. On the other hand, when people grow sick of evangelicalism and are looking for worship that is centered on the work of Christ and timeless they will find real substance in theologically conservative liturgical Lutheran churches.

I used to attend a Presbyterian church that caught the church growth/seeker-sensitive bug and seemed to keep getting smaller and smaller as people started leaving. It was pathetic watching this minister up there with his guitar trying to be hip and contemporary singing praise choruses that were shallow and really weren't even all that new. The church growth models seem to work in certain regional areas among certain people groups but cannot be applied across the board and have a bad foundation.

 

[Tofferer]

That is only a portion of why so many are opposed to ablaze (or is it awash not quite certain).

 

[DaRev]

I do think the whole church growth thing within the LCMS will eventually backfire. It can only last so long.

This is true. With the membership loss rate at an all time high, it will end when the synod has no more members.

 

[Zoness]

I don't have any comments right now it looks we are having an internal denomination discussion. *sticks around*

 

[Korah]

Maybe by treading the same path he meant the path of losing the Lutheran identity. Most new LCMS congregations look exactly like evangelical/non-denom churches. As the ELCA becomes more and more Methodist, the LCMS becomes more and more Baptist...I've heard that quote from some where but it unfortunatly is starting to become true with Ablaze. The timeless example of Jefferson Hills in St. Louis, if it looks and smell non-denom it is.

That clears up a lot!
I was raised Methodist, but wandered away into RC in 1969, Episcopalianism in 1992, but chose ELCA in 2004. I'm home!
What most repelled me about Protestantism was the same old Evangelical sermon every week after week like in a Baptist church. No wonder I ran away from my first inquiry class in 1960--it was Missouri Synod! It was like a Baptist Church (I never attended the services--I was on campus next to St. Mark's Church only on week-days), just raised to a dogmatic level of inflexibility. (With Baptists you at least had a chance to prove from the Bible that they're wrong.)
Korah

 

[Studeclunker]

That is only a portion of why so many are opposed to ablaze (or is it awash not quite certain).

LOL, I love it!

Arrr... me hearty! Th' ol' ship's awash and foundering. Time to get th' crew to th' boats.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

LOL, I love it!

Arrr... me hearty! Th' ol' ship's awash and foundering. Time to get th' crew to th' boats.

Will the Skipper go down with the ship?

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

That clears up a lot!
I was raised Methodist, but wandered away into RC in 1969, Episcopalianism in 1992, but chose ELCA in 2004. I'm home!
What most repelled me about Protestantism was the same old Evangelical sermon every week after week like in a Baptist church. No wonder I ran away from my first inquiry class in 1960--it was Missouri Synod! It was like a Baptist Church (I never attended the services--I was on campus next to St. Mark's Church only on week-days), just raised to a dogmatic level of inflexibility. (With Baptists you at least had a chance to prove from the Bible that they're wrong.)
Korah

Good, I'm glad you ended up in general liberal Protestantism. Keep it up because you guys are shrinking faster than you can establish fellowship with other sinkkkkking ships.

 

[Aibrean]

A lot has to do with individual congregations.

 

[filosofer]

Welcome back, Aibrean. It has been a while since I've seen you around here.

 

[Aibrean]

Yea I know...life has been keeping me busy...whole just married thing We are up to our 1 year anniversary now.

House is still getting worked on though.

 

[Korah]

Good, I'm glad you ended up in general liberal Protestantism. Keep it up because you guys are shrinking faster than you can establish fellowship with other sinkkkkking ships.

I'm more of a liberal Catholic, actually. I've never considered myself Protestant since 1963, when I took my first (of three) Roman Catholic inquiry classes.