Moderate Lutheran Churches

[DaRev]

The Eastern Orthodox Church is no more orthodox than the Roman Catholic Church is catholic.

 

[wildboar]

In some ways terms such as conservative and liberal can be helpful, but most of the time they are just useless. As free market capitalism developed it was considered a "liberal" system and now that which calls itself "conservative" talk radio promotes free market capitalism. They are relative terms to the current situation. There are American churches that think you are a liberal if you deny a pre-tribulation rapture even though this is a very new idea. Politically I've moved from being a free-market capitalist to being a distributist but I would leave my church if the pastor spent all his time promoting distributism (I'm not even sure what his particular position is). The duty of the pastor is to preach Christ--not some human political system. The church is called to take a stand against things like murder and homosexuality but should not be idiotic enough to pledge its support to any political party. I don't think that a person should be going around to various churches to find out the pastor's civil voting record in order to determine which church he should join.

In regards to the Five Points of Calvinism and the PCUSA--the five points of Calvinism are a summary of the Canons of Dordt which are part of the doctrinal standards of the Dutch Reformed Churches--the Presbyterians do not subscribe to them. The PCUSA has also modified its own doctrinal standards to make them less Calvinistic and reinterprets their standards through neo-orthodox lenses. Of all the reasons why I would never join the PCUSA (and there are quite a few), them being too Calvinistic wouldn't make it anywhere near the top of my list.

Every major branch of denominations has its divisions within it. Some are better at hiding it than others. The Easter Orthodox probably do the best of presenting a facade of unity but then every once in a while some monks from different branches of the Orthodox church will get in a fist fight in the Holy Land. (Sometimes I do wish we could all just have fist-fights and get it over with rather than all the back-biting that goes on). I also heard an interview a while back on Issues Etc. with Dr. Eugene Smith--an Orthodox priest who converted to Lutheranism. He served as a deacon for a number of years in a particular Orthodox diocese and eventually became a priest. But he received a call from a church in another diocese and they really wanted him. But the diocese would not recognize his ordination. So he asked if he could be called and ordained as a deacon in the new diocese and they told him that he was already ordained as a priest and so they could not.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I like the Hawkeyes! I wish they were in the Big 12 instead of Iowa State. It would make the north division stronger. Although maybe potentially too strong if the year did come where Nebraska, Colorado, Mizzou, Kansas, KSU, and Iowa actually performed the way they should. So it might be good that Iowa State is in there I don't know.

In the south I wish TCU had joined instead of Baylor it would have made the south more interesting. Well it is pretty interesting given the three way tie.

Well, you have found the way to get me completely off topic, sorry. I'm a huge OU fan and a huge college football fan in general.

I've actually heard rumors of Iowa State joining the big ten...but that wouldn't go down too well...we already have an Iowa State ...Indiana. Oh and I was rooting for you guys against the gators, the SEC is apparently the only conference on the face of the earth, just ask any of their fans/any media outlets. Last post about football sorry lol!

 

[Studeclunker]

Ok

Because I forgot to say something earlier Josiah brings up an interesting point. Churches are divided less and less by geographical and ethnic distinctions (which is kind of good because then you would really be excluded) but at the same time this polarizing, which I see very strong in Lutheranism (and possibly soon Anglicanism) is very divisive.

Zoness, you are searching in a careful and systematic way which is very impressive. Your questions and answers to questions indicate that you're thinking all of this through in a very mature way. As to your last comment in the above quote, yes, the Church as a whole is very divided and divisive. Much as the human race is such.

Historically speaking... When the Reformation finally got underway with Luther, Zwinglii and the others, it led to further divisions in the church. Some of this was good as the Romans had gone very much too far. There was nearly a one-world church and the Romans were working hard in that direction. They wanted political control of all Christendom. Error had crept out of dark corners and infected the church at the highest levels. Calls for correction were greeted as dissention, or worse, heresy. Punishment was severe and delt with a heavy hand. Thus came the Reformation.

Do you remember your Sunday School lessons on the Tower of Babel? God divided Mankind as they were becoming too powerful and wandering off in the same direction as before the flood. So, he confused the language in order that they would no longer be one people, but many. Thus also, do I believe the Lord again did with the Church.

ELCA has many virtues. They are much better at reaching out to the community than many Lutheran congregations. However, they err in that they are becoming too much like the world. We are to be in the world but not of the world.

LCMS is beginning to wander off from it's firm doctrinal and theological foundation into the same trap. I am however, more comfortable with them than ELCA.

WELS has a bit too... Baptist... of a flavour for me. At least the local congregation does. I prefer a more Catholic service. Nevertheless, their doctrine and theology are spot on.

Warmth to guests and seekers has always been a problem with Lutheran churches. They've historically not gone out into the community and prosthelized the population like the Pentecostals, Baptists, and now Calvary Chapels have. We're not good at this. Often, when one goes to a Lutheran church they encounter a multi-generational congregation that is deeply rooted in the community. The younger members have grown up in the congregation and this kind of produces a 'closed club' atmosphere. Though the adults (people over twenty-five generally) recognize that they need to reach out more, the younger folk kind of get forgotten in these programmes. The late teens and early twenty-somethings are generally so pre-occupied with thier schooling as to be very little influence on the congregation. All of this is endemic in Lutheran congregations as a whole.

You have mentioned that one simply can never take communion without sinning. In this you are partially correct. There is nothing at all we can do in our own strength in this world without sinning. However, with communion, we come to the table as sinful beings, to partake of the one sinless being's perfection. Hence the confession we say in very many ways:

Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us, forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the glory of your holy name.
Amen.

The pastor then announces the Lord's largesse upon us, namely His forgiveness. In this way we can approach the altar with a firm conviction that we are not sinning against the Lord by partaking in his blood and body. You should be familliar with this as it is very similar to the Roman Catholic Mass. Not same, just similar. Through this procedure, with the Holy Spirit's assistance, we come to the Altar blameless. Not of our own works or actions, but those that the Sprit accomplishes in us.

Lutherans believe in real presence, similar to the Catholics. Similar, though not same. The Reformed, Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Pentecostals, etc, etc, etc... don't. They believe that Communion is nothing more than something done, as Christ said, "do this in rememberence of me," or a memorial service. To them it's just wine or grape juice and bread. In fact, I've seen many of them use leavened bread for this service. They miss the point completely about the unleavened bread. Because we believe in something tangible in Communion, and because we take this very seriously, Lutherans are protective of the outsider. This is why we refuse to commune them. It protects them from partaking to judgement. It's not exclusion, just perhaps, over-protectiveness.

I've been rattling along much too long with this. Still, there was a lot of ground (covered very well by others) this thread travelled through. May our gracious and generous Lord bless you with what you are seeking no matter which Church he leads you to.

 

[IowaLutheran]

ELCA has many virtues. They are much better at reaching out to the community than many Lutheran congregations. However, they err in that they are becoming too much like the world. We are to be in the world but not of the world.

LCMS is beginning to wander off from it's firm doctrinal and theological foundation into the same trap. I am however, more comfortable with them than ELCA.

WELS has a bit too... Baptist... of a flavour for me. At least the local congregation does. I prefer a more Catholic service. Nevertheless, their doctrine and theology are spot on.

Thanks for your charitable assessment. Sometimes on this message board I get a bit hacked off when people who aren't ELCA members pass judgment. Its kind of like this - brothers may fight bitterly with each other, but when someone outside the family attacks, they unite. I know all too well the deficiencies of my denomination, but I can't leave because (1) I'm a baptized and confirmed lifelong member, and "church-shopping" isn't my thing, and (2) There are still orthodox members. At one time in the early church, bishops and clergy partial to the Arian heresy held a majority in certain areas. The orthodox did not leave and start their own denomination, but persisted and eventually won the day. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but history is made over centuries, not mere decades - God's time is different than our time.

 

[Studeclunker]

Thanks for your charitable assessment. Sometimes on this message board I get a bit hacked off when people who aren't ELCA members pass judgment. Its kind of like this - brothers may fight bitterly with each other, but when someone outside the family attacks, they unite. I know all too well the deficiencies of my denomination, but I can't leave because (1) I'm a baptized and confirmed lifelong member, and "church-shopping" isn't my thing, and (2) There are still orthodox members. At one time in the early church, bishops and clergy partial to the Arian heresy held a majority in certain areas. The orthodox did not leave and start their own denomination, but persisted and eventually won the day. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but history is made over centuries, not mere decades - God's time is different than our time.

I started out ELCA, having been born into a Lutheran sect that ended up becoming part of it through various mergers. After wandering around and seeking answers everywhere else, I returned to the Lutheran church. When the original 'Statement On Human Sexuality' came out and was so soundly defeated, I thought that was the end of it. Then the Bishop of the Pacifica Synod made a public statement that made it quite clear that the leadership was going to carry on with their heresies. I couldn't any longer continue with such an organization. They've gone on since to ordain women, homosexuals, and re-introduce the same above document (revised to hide thier heresies through clever wording).

It really hurts to see how the LCMS is now treading that same path. These things start small, and grow. Kind of like a fungus. Just like that fungus, if one doesn't get on top of it from the beginning, it becomes such a problem that rooting it out is... costly.
What I'm blathering on about, is that I know the problems with ELCA from the inside. Breaking with them was a painful decision. Nevertheless, it was one where... I couldn't see any other option.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Ok

Because I forgot to say something earlier Josiah brings up an interesting point. Churches are divided less and less by geographical and ethnic distinctions (which is kind of good because then you would really be excluded) but at the same time this polarizing, which I see very strong in Lutheranism (and possibly soon Anglicanism) is very divisive.

It seems to me this "polerizating" (as you called it) now based on theology/morality rather than earlier issues, is not unique to Lutheranism. It's happening most dramatically in Anglicanism right now but has also been a part of most faith traditions.

Our good Lutheran friends here are, IMHO, more "sensitive" to the differences among Lutherans than the great majority of Lutherans and, focused on self, it may be good to back off a bit for some perspective. I think that, as a whole, American Lutheranism is a pretty conservative group. We certainly are known for such. Our agreements via-a-vis the Creeds and the Augburg Confession is fairly strong, as a rule.

There ARE issues we disagree on (surprise - we are different denominations!) and, as so often happens where disagreements exists even in the midst of overwhelming agreement - it is the disagreements we focus on and discuss and use as defining points. It's the disagreements in approaches, practices, official statements that are used to "define" LCMS vis-a-vis ELCA, etc.

And as I mentioned earlier, it's important to remember that both of these large denominations have a range within them. The GENERALITIES may be true, but may be rather meaningless when speaking of a SPECIFIC LCMS or ELCA congregation. That said, I'm glad to be apart of a congregation that is affiliated with the LCMS. I'm simply more confortable with convention decisions, public policies, etc. My father is a pastor in a denomination he often (rather passionately) disagrees with and tends to spent too much time disassociating himself from what the denomination says or does; I find my self blessingly not having to do that (often) with mine new one. But I will always recall - with fondness - the time I worshipped in an ECLA church. The people were warm, loving, spiritual, Christ-centered, and both theologically and morally biblical - as was the pastor.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[Zoness]

Zoness, you are searching in a careful and systematic way which is very impressive. Your questions and answers to questions indicate that you're thinking all of this through in a very mature way. As to your last comment in the above quote, yes, the Church as a whole is very divided and divisive. Much as the human race is such.

Thanks

Do you remember your Sunday School lessons on the Tower of Babel? God divided Mankind as they were becoming too powerful and wandering off in the same direction as before the flood. So, he confused the language in order that they would no longer be one people, but many. Thus also, do I believe the Lord again did with the Church.

Interesting idea, well it worked...well. People tear at each others throats.

ELCA has many virtues. They are much better at reaching out to the community than many Lutheran congregations. However, they err in that they are becoming too much like the world. We are to be in the world but not of the world.

They did like the fact that I was there more than other congregations, but they do have their faults.

Warmth to guests and seekers has always been a problem with Lutheran churches. They've historically not gone out into the community and prosthelized the population like the Pentecostals, Baptists, and now Calvary Chapels have. We're not good at this. Often, when one goes to a Lutheran church they encounter a multi-generational congregation that is deeply rooted in the community. The younger members have grown up in the congregation and this kind of produces a 'closed club' atmosphere. Though the adults (people over twenty-five generally) recognize that they need to reach out more, the younger folk kind of get forgotten in these programmes. The late teens and early twenty-somethings are generally so pre-occupied with thier schooling as to be very little influence on the congregation. All of this is endemic in Lutheran congregations as a whole.

Yeah it is kind of like an ethnic club I wasn't invited to, to best describe it. I mean sometimes people were very loving and glad to have me but usually it just felt like I was in the way.

Snip'd communion stuff

I kinda see what you are saying, it makes communion a good weapon too...the threat of excommunication is a big deal to a lot of people, I just now considered that. I believe in the real presence but unfortunately I don't think I will find a church that believes in the real presence without a lot of doctrinal conflicts, minus Anglicanism probably and maybe Lutheranism but I can't seem to keep my foot in the door.

I've been rattling along much too long with this. Still, there was a lot of ground (covered very well by others) this thread travelled through. May our gracious and generous Lord bless you with what you are seeking no matter which Church he leads you to.

Thank you very much

Unfortunately I don't know if Lutheranism is for me...I'm sure there are a bunch of loving people but I'm just not part of the community...I wasn't born into it, I don't have a lot of the ethnic background and the churches that follow the bible the closest are very exclusive (heh isnt any church?). Thanks for all of the help so far still!

 

[Melethiel]

Unfortunately I don't know if Lutheranism is for me...I'm sure there are a bunch of loving people but I'm just not part of the community...I wasn't born into it, I don't have a lot of the ethnic background and the churches that follow the bible the closest are very exclusive (heh isnt any church?). Thanks for all of the help so far still!

Don't let that put you off...I wasn't born into it either, nor am I of the "right" ethnicity.

 

[BabyLutheran]

My ELCA church is mostly people under 40 who were not born Lutheran, very friendly to newcomers, and it was the only Lutheran church I ever went to, so I am luck I have missed out on the exclusivity and other negatives described above.

I am just thankful that God saves us despite our church affiliation. I haven't seen anything in the Bible about having to go to a certain type of church being a requirement. We spend so much time and energy justifying our own denominations' doctrines, we fail to act like Christians many times.

 

[Zoness]

Just to prove it isn't denomination specific I was "closed out" of both LCMS and ELCA congregations however one ELCA congregation I attended was very friendly and invited me to inquirers classes once but my parents wouldn't have any of that.

 

[DaRev]

It really hurts to see how the LCMS is now treading that same path.

I'd be interested in knowing where you see the LCMS "treading the same path" toward the ordination of women or homosexuals.

 

[Tofferer]

Good question, I don't see that.

 

[Zoness]

In my short time with the LCMS I didn't see that either, women and homosexuals...definitely not on the ordination list there.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I'd be interested in knowing where you see the LCMS "treading the same path" toward the ordination of women or homosexuals.

Maybe by treading the same path he meant the path of losing the Lutheran identity. Most new LCMS congregations look exactly like evangelical/non-denom churches. As the ELCA becomes more and more Methodist, the LCMS becomes more and more Baptist...I've heard that quote from some where but it unfortunatley is starting to become true with Ablaze. The timeless example of Jefferson Hills in St. Louis, if it looks and smell non-denom it is.

 

[IowaLutheran]

As the ELCA becomes more and more Methodist, the LCMS becomes more and more Baptist...I've heard that quote from some where

Professor Jaroslav Pelikan (now deceased), one of the world's leading authorities on church history, said it when he became Orthodox. He was originally LCMS, then ELCA, then Orthodox.

 

[Johnsgal]

I like the Hawkeyes! I wish they were in the Big 12 instead of Iowa State. It would make the north division stronger. Although maybe potentially too strong if the year did come where Nebraska, Colorado, Mizzou, Kansas, KSU, and Iowa actually performed the way they should. So it might be good that Iowa State is in there I don't know.

In the south I wish TCU had joined instead of Baylor it would have made the south more interesting. Well it is pretty interesting given the three way tie.

Well, you have found the way to get me completely off topic, sorry. I'm a huge OU fan and a huge college football fan in general.

Try being a husker and then a sooner fan and now Radman thinks I should become a Mo fan. It will be hard for me to give up my husker tickets this year.

 

[wildboar]

I heard the same quote attributed to Pelikan. It seems unfortunate that he wasn't a little more specific as to his reasons for leaving Lutheranism. From reading a number of his books he seems to have been a very intelligent and deep-thinking person and not very impulsive. Some more specific remarks would perhaps be helpful in recognizing some problems in the Lutheran church bodies. There are some pretty strong doctrinal differences between Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox churches.

Perhaps taken as a majority of who is doing what, the LCMS is looking more and more Baptist. On the other hand, there are a number of younger ministers who are more and more catholic (in the good sense of the word)--they are more liturgical and practice more frequent communion in their churches. So perhaps what is bad in the LCMS has gotten worse and worse and what is good has gotten better and better.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So perhaps what is bad in the LCMS has gotten worse and worse and what is good has gotten better and better.

Well put. In the small city where I live we have two LCC Congregations, both are very "catholic", however there are some congregations in our district that have been using only grape juice for some time "so as not to offend". District seems to have their heads stuck in the sand (or an anatomical orifice) and chooses to say and do nothing "so as not to offend".

I'm offended.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I heard the same quote attributed to Pelikan. It seems unfortunate that he wasn't a little more specific as to his reasons for leaving Lutheranism. From reading a number of his books he seems to have been a very intelligent and deep-thinking person and not very impulsive. Some more specific remarks would perhaps be helpful in recognizing some problems in the Lutheran church bodies. There are some pretty strong doctrinal differences between Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox churches.

Perhaps taken as a majority of who is doing what, the LCMS is looking more and more Baptist. On the other hand, there are a number of younger ministers who are more and more catholic (in the good sense of the word)--they are more liturgical and practice more frequent communion in their churches. So perhaps what is bad in the LCMS has gotten worse and worse and what is good has gotten better and better.

Great point! I myself can't wait to become ordained within the LCMS, and I would be adding on to the catholic element!